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The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity! (Read 16421 times)
DaBears
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The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Apr 18th, 2007 at 6:10pm
 
What is this place that unbelievers like myself are destined for, that Christians are trying (or supposed to be trying) so desperately to save me from? Whatever it is, a god died so I wouldn’t have to go there. At least, that’s the story. I once read another story about some Christian monks who baptized infants and immediately dashed their brains out upon the rocks. The reason? So they would not go to hell. So horrendous was this place, that any cost–even their lives–was not too high a price to ensure that they did not go there. Hell, God's eternal torture chamber, where the greater part of all humanity will spend eternity. What is the purpose of this place? Well, punishment, Christians tell us. But punishment for what purpose? Since there is no remedial value to hell, no chance of learning your lesson and getting let out, what good does the punishment do? Even the most cruel human torturers usually have a reason for their torture. Make the appropriate confessions, tell them what they want to know, and the torture will usually stop. Or at the very least, you can eventually die. But Christians make God out to be the very worst kind of torturer–one that tortures for no other reason than to torture, and one that lets you stay alive forever, with no possible release from the pain.
As a Christian, I was always uncomfortable with this. In an attempt to explain hell while leaving God's reputation for fairness intact, I deferred to a more C.S. Lewis-type explanation. Rather than having God create a place like Hell and sending people there, I saw Hell more as a result of rejecting God. It was the ultimate "you got what you asked for." God was saying, "You really don't want me around? Fine. I'll leave." And the result was hell, the absence of everything good, which vanished when God did. Once you chose to leave God's presence, you chose to live in a Godless universe where the only thing left was pain and suffering, and everything else that was bad about life, or in a word, hell. But aside from making God out to be very petty, like a kid who throws down his marbles and folds his arms because you don’t let him win, this whole idea puts some very strange limitations on God. We'll examine it more later.

The lure of Christianity is that it offers such an easy way out of hell. All you have to do is believe. There are generally no rituals (except baptism in some denominations), and there are no good deeds to perform. A popular Christian bumper sticker sums it up well: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." And the utter horrific nature of hell provides a very compelling reason to convert. Who would not do anything to escape this fate, or to make sure that others avoid it as well? One can begin to understand the rationale of the baby-killing monks. Hell provides the ultimate motive to become a Christian.

Hell is also the strongest case against the Christian faith, for it is nothing less than the most sadistic torture ever devised. In America we pride ourselves in prohibiting something called "cruel and unusual punishment." We look aghast at dictatorial regimes that torture its prisoners and dissidents. Yet even the worst atrocities committed under the cruelest tyrants of this world are nothing when compared to what Christians say God has in store for us. A poignant way to illustrate this is to look at what Christians believe about Jews, especially Jews that were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. Although Christians generally do not discuss this, it is what they must believe, for it is built into their system of "divine justice."

Christians define as hell-bound anyone who does not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. This includes just about all practicing Jews. So imagine this scenario: as the millions of Jews slaughtered in Hitler's death camps passed into the afterlife, they awoke to find themselves burning in hell. Not only was there a lack of food there, there was no food. Not only was there poor drinking water, there was no water. Not only was there pain, there was the most intense pain imaginable, and it was unrelenting. Sort of like being tossed into the ovens of Auschwitz alive. And not only did this suffering just seem like it would never end, it really never would.

It's been over half a century since Hitler's death camps were dismantled. So for more than 50 years, millions of Jews, who were former prisoners of the Nazis, have been suffering to an extent not even imagined by the SS, and for a much longer time. In fact, we can imagine that many Jews are longing to return to the vermin-infested barracks, the moldy bread, the thin gruel, the backbreaking work and brutal treatment–if only to escape the agony of hell for a moment.

This is sick. Yet this is what I had to believe when I was a Christian. This is what the largest Protestant denomination in the world still teaches its followers (although usually indirectly), confident that God condones, and even created, a universe in which this occurs. And to what end? There is no point to Hell, so it becomes merely a cruel instrument of sadism. Sadistic torture of any person by another person is unacceptable. Why do Christians think it's okay when God does this?

And now back to the idea that hell might be a place of our own making, the consequence of rejecting God. If hell occurs when people don't want God around, and He leaves, what does that say about God? If all good things really come from God, isn't God big enough to fill the whole universe? Isn't He already doing it now? Why, in the future, must He parcel His presence to only those who appreciate it? Is the sun not big enough to give light to all the flowers, whether or not they are smart enough to realize from where those life-giving rays emanate?

And even if people really thought they didn't want God around, should God be such a poor sport as to leave just because of that? Christians describe God as a heavenly parent. What sort of parents would abandon a child just because it threw a tantrum and said that it didn't want them anymore? As parents, we are wise enough to realize that kids don't always mean what they say, or even if they do, that they are often merely acting as kids. And besides, we would never abandon them. Now the gulf of understanding that lies between adults and kids is not nearly as big as that which separates God from humans. So why can’t God be at least as decent and understanding to His own kids as we are to ours? Jesus said in Matthew 7: 9-11, "What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" I would like to add to that: "or what parent is there of you, whom if their child disobeys, will douse him in kerosene and set him alight? And what manner of parent who did this would call himself good?"

It is a sad day when people condone the abuse of one human being by another. It is also a sad day when people believe their god does the same.
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #1 - Apr 18th, 2007 at 8:48pm
 
Hi DaBears-
You've got the logic down nicely, but I think it misses the point.

Hell and damnation are job security for priests who sell fire insurance.

d
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Rob_Roy
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #2 - Apr 18th, 2007 at 8:56pm
 
"Hell and darnation are job security for priests who sell fire insurance."

Very well put, Dave.


Rob
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DaBears
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #3 - Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:43pm
 
dave_a_mbs wrote on Apr 18th, 2007 at 8:48pm:
Hi DaBears-
You've got the logic down nicely, but I think it misses the point.

Hell and damnation are job security for priests who sell fire insurance.

d

Grin
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LaffingRain
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #4 - Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:52pm
 
very well written DaBears! I'd like to see your book someday!

and I agree with you, god must be a very very good sport!!

i especially like the prodigal son story in reference to what you've written. here we have a man who was good and stayed in the kingdom of heaven, doing everything according to how he thought god would want.
then you have this bloke squandering everything traveling the world, he comes back home busted, he's got nowhere else to go but home. god welcomes him home with the fatted calf, all is forgotten in the joy that he made it home, busted, but at least he's home.

so then the other good son, who never did anything wrong, never spent all his money, maybe never even had an earth life, he's jealous and wonders why god is celebrating this other son over him, when he was the good one.
I forget what god said. lol. help me out here. ok, I think god said, to the good one, you've never been a worry to me, but look, my other son has come home!  my heart is big enough for both of you. Smiley
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DaBears
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #5 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 1:15am
 
LaffingRain wrote on Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:52pm:
very well written DaBears! I'd like to see your book someday!

and I agree with you, god must be a very very good sport!!

i especially like the prodigal son story in reference to what you've written. here we have a man who was good and stayed in the kingdom of heaven, doing everything according to how he thought god would want.
then you have this bloke squandering everything traveling the world, he comes back home busted, he's got nowhere else to go but home. god welcomes him home with the fatted calf, all is forgotten in the joy that he made it home, busted, but at least he's home.

so then the other good son, who never did anything wrong, never spent all his money, maybe never even had an earth life, he's jealous and wonders why god is celebrating this other son over him, when he was the good one.
I forget what god said. lol. help me out here. ok, I think god said, to the good one, you've never been a worry to me, but look, my other son has come home!  my heart is big enough for both of you. Smiley

Thanks, I try my best to write the best.. lol Yeah, the prodigal son says it all for sure..

I don't know what God said.. lol Sorry!
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Cricket
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #6 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 8:05am
 
Alysia, I think God said something about if you had a lamb go missing, you'd hunt for it and be all happy when you found it, while the others were sitting there like good little sheep.  However, it's been a while since I read the Bible, so I may be mixing it up with a different story.

Life has been considerable more relaxing since I figured out that it doesn't have to make any sense to me, Christianity is irrelevant to my life in all but purely practical ways (like blue laws), so I pretty much sit back and let them fight it out among themselves.
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blink
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #7 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 9:11am
 
DaBears you said:
"Is the sun not big enough to give light to all the flowers, whether or not they are smart enough to realize from where those life-giving rays emanate?"

Jesus said to look at the lilies, how they toil not, neither do they spin, and yet God looks after them.  He said to his followers, be like them.

Therefore, we are not to worry about what we eat and drink. We are to continue on our path with calm and abiding hope.  

I don't think I noticed anything about worrying about hellfire after death in this speech of his.

He told us what is most important....to love God above all others, and to love our neighbor as ourself.

Each of us has our own way of fulfilling this request because we are creative beings. So not one of us can condemn another.

Even Cho, who took guns in his own hands and acted out his violent fantasies....is loved by God.  He loved others as himself.  His self-love was deficient and his spirit was weak, so we cannot condemn him.  We can call him mentally ill....or we can say he did not have a grip on a greater reality.

So, those who wrongly teach others doctrines of fear....are they different from Cho?  Perhaps not, in some ways.

And yet, we must understand and forgive those who teach such a message. They are only one piece of the fabric of our lives.

Ultimately, we are responsible for ourselves, for training our spirits to be strong, for training our hearts to be kind and true in all circumstances.

We cannot allow others to take away our happiness, our laughter, our hopes, dreams, visions.....these are too precious. We can only water the seeds of goodness in others, as we are able....

as we heal ourselves.  It truly is a case of the physician healing himself.....then, and only then, is it possible to fully minister to others with wisdom.

love, blink Smiley
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« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2007 at 10:24am by N/A »  
 
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DocM
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #8 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 9:18am
 
I find the title of this thread offensive to christians, eventhough I am not christian.  If there is a lie about damnation - make that the title of the thread.

If you look at the gospels, the teachings of Christ and find that they support damnation meted out unto nonbelievers, I'd be surprised.  Certain forms of christianity, of religion may teach these things.  Rage against those in particular but not christians in general. 

You are likely to offend people you never meant to offend.



Matthew
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Rondele
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #9 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 11:26am
 
Doc-

You're right, this post is offensive.  The title is offensive and the rest of it is a rant.  This clearly violates the Guidelines. 

I can't help but wonder if the Subject line had replaced Christianity (he could at least learn to spell it) with Islam, how quickly would it be removed?

Clearly a double standard these days.

R
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LaffingRain
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #10 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 11:45am
 
DaBears, the title of the thread does nothing to support the content, which my opinion stands, the content is exceptionally brilliant. (my opinion)

but the first time I saw the title, I have to admit, I was expecting a rant, I was pleasantly surprised to find there was no rant.

keep it up! all opinions are welcome here Rondele, and you should take your own advice, that you gave to me, we make a new rule here then, to qualify all our posts "in my opinion."

this way all can have an equal voice, we are all important. btw DaBears, are u a Christian?
I consider myself pagan, or Pantheistic. I embrace all humanity. we are all travelers.
I think you must be a cross-over Christian DaBears. the new breed. so young, so much a thinker! Be not afraid! listen to the heart...it will always speak to those who have ears.
love, alysia
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AhSoLaoTsuAhhOmmra
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #11 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 11:49am
 
Cricket wrote on Apr 19th, 2007 at 8:05am:
Alysia, I think God said something about if you had a lamb go missing, you'd hunt for it and be all happy when you found it, while the others were sitting there like good little sheep.  However, it's been a while since I read the Bible, so I may be mixing it up with a different story.

Life has been considerable more relaxing since I figured out that it doesn't have to make any sense to me, Christianity is irrelevant to my life in all but purely practical ways (like blue laws), so I pretty much sit back and let them fight it out among themselves.


  Cricket, i do find it somewhat amusing that despite all your protests against not caring at all about Christianity  except as involves laws which directly affect you and your life, saying its irrelevant to you etc., yet you still oft post on such threads relating to the subject of Christianity? 

   Just an observation.

  Anyways, this thread is kind of boring and rather "off topic"--not meaning to offend anyone though.



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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #12 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:03pm
 
Alysia-

I stand corrected.  In my opinion the post is offensive.  Thanks for the correction.  I over reacted to the Subject line.  I guess I should also say that in my opinion the post also violates the Guidelines.  I say that per the excerpt of the Guidelines below:

POSTING GUIDELINES & RULES:

It is a violation subject to banning to post any message that is:

Bullying; threatening; abusive; or harassing
Demeaning; mocking; defamatory; libelous; or hateful
An attack upon the beliefs of individuals or groups
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Mactek
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #13 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:03pm
 
Doc & Rondele,

Ego looking for acceptance and love, nothing more.  There have plenty of pats on the back and attaboys so far to offer acceptance, so the ego should feel better.

My ego was slightly offended before I realized I was choosing to be offended... then I stopped.

There are plenty of ways to point out inaccuracies to be sure, but they don't serve the purpose of offering the ego what it wants.
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DocM
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Re: The Ungodly lie promoted by Chrisitanity!
Reply #14 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:18pm
 
For me, there is no ego invoved in saying the title is offensive; it merely is.  I am not a christian, and were I to be one, I would not fret over it.  We may progress spiritually to the point where sticks and stones don't break our bones, but that doesn't give license to malign an entire religion (either deliberatelly or not) in a forum.  Being "enlightened" does not mean that these forums should be completely unregulated - inappropriate posts should be removed.

Rather than delete this thread, I think it should just be changed in the title and main post so as not to malign the christian religion.


Matthew
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