Alysia said: I don't think it matters really Albert. When I first read what Seth said that J let some other guy take the rap, I just thought to myself, that's one smart guy!

"My feeling is that Jesus would have too much integrity to do such a thing. I know I wouldn't allow another person to be crucified in my place, and I haven't obtained Jesus' level of consciousness. Besides, as I wrote before, Seth stated that Judas came up with the plan without Jesus knowing about it, which doesn't make sense, since at the last supper Jesus stated that somewhere here would betray him and let it be know that Judas was the betrayer."


Alysia said: then I thought some more that J would be so far evolved, so very enlightened, even if he did go thru with the whole show, he would know how to control pain of the body, and certainly there would be angels all around for this momentous world changing, religion-establishing business. so I wondered why Seth would say what he did, that a switcheroo occurred.

"Good question."

Alysia said: then I thought, maybe he meant he just up and left the physical body as of course any enlightened being could leave his body at will. in that case, if this is true, that would explain why Seth said "another" took his place. This other would be one who had an assignment to take his place, to make it appear as if suffering was taking place, in order so that the Christians could see, yes, indeed, it is wrong to crucify another in the name of that a good thing is happening.
but we needed a religion, didn't we? that way we could we could all have fun giving forth with our opinions that we are all such guilty people, unless the devil made us do it.
we can always blame the devil.

"What are you implying, that the crucifixion was needed for the sake of Christianity, but an enlightened being such as Jesus wasn't up to the task of following through with his sacred destiny? Even if this is so, it's funny that a man who supposedly had the destiny to be crucified in his place was a mentally disturbed man who had to be drugged and tricked into carrying out his duty."

Alysia said: so I don't know what happened, and just because you offer me your opinion of what you saw and understood, I don't accept your belief either. and no reason you should accept mine. it's for each of us to make our contributions here respectfully, is all the point I wish to make.
I saw the thread as getting out of hand that it all.

"I don't accept the lies of Seth, Elias and other channeled sources that state that Jesus wasn't crucified."

when I read channelled material I do not automatically think because it is channelled that it's going to feed me. it's for each of us to discern, take out what is useful, meditate on it, throw out what can't be used, or store it in memory to see if another author, alive or dead, as the case may be, is supportative of the same concept.
that's how we learn.

"Out of respect for Christ I won't waste my time with sources that purposely lie about him."

Alysia said: getting away from arguments pro or con on anything, we need to keep in mind the original posters questions..and see if they have found anything useful in our opinions offered, starting a war here is not usually beneficial to the original poster. thanks, alysia [/quote]

"A person asked a question, and differing answers have been provided. Sometimes things get a little hot under the collar when our beliefs are challenged."

Alysia said: I don't think it matters really Albert. When I first read what Seth said that J let some other guy take the rap, I just thought to myself, that's one smart guy!

"My feeling is that Jesus would have too much integrity to do such a thing. I know I wouldn't allow another person to be crucified in my place, and I haven't obtained Jesus' level of consciousness.
_____

yes, but there is a plan and its concievable to me that J could have made an agreement with another spirit even before history was enacted. its just concievable...notice I didn't say it was the truth. its just a thought. we can find out the truth when we find out.
Personally I believe nothing would have been done by J, that was not in the highest good of the world.
As for Seth, theres some good stuff in the books about personal reality creating, good enough for people to study his other points and not discredit him entirely because of one small portion not understandable to yourself.
______


Besides, as I wrote before, Seth stated that Judas came up with the plan without Jesus knowing about it, which doesn't make sense
_____

this can be explained (my opinion, remember!) Judas was used by the forces that be, call it spirit, he had to perform his role, otherwise the crucifiction might not have occurred as it did. Without the crucifiction, we simply would not have a religion called Christianity. think about it.
_______

, since at the last supper Jesus stated that somewhere here would betray him and let it be know that Judas was the betrayer."
______

of course J would be psychic. He's god remember? god knows everything in a precognitive manner. I suggest J came into the world knowing what his job was and proceeded to establish a religion, when he would rather have established a brotherhood among all men. its us, Seth included, all books, it's us who make the religious dogma, it's us who have bias. its us who don't know how to love or accept our brothers and sisters the way J would have us to. but your point is to discredit all of Seth's teachings on the basis that Seth said
yada yada yada...ok. if Judas came up with the betrayal idea all by himself and it wasn't part of the destiny of Christianity....then I'd be mighty surprised is all I can say.

I don't know. But I have a belief it's an orderly universe, not chaotic as you suggest. Seth, to my way of thinking could have meant that Judas was not in touch with his higher self and that his ego came up with the idea of betraying that which he loved. as I'm pretty sure he did love J. just to be around J, you would love him.

C1 state of consciousness is limited mind. Seth material does not explore C1 versus higher self. In limited, ego thoughts, we are quite capable of feeling and being dissociated with higher thought and enact all sorts of dramas which include viciousness and death. So in reading Seth, it can be a sort of primer for other stuff. it was for me like a starting point, a place to entertain myself with new thoughts, then when it no longer suits my beliefs, move on to something that resonates more fully.
I believe in doing a lot of reading, of everything..and not putting down anything as right or wrong. I've adopted Monroe's "there is no right, there is no wrong." all just is.
so I can't say to Gemini, don't read it, but read it, then see if it works for you, if not, theres so much stuff to read, surely a little prayer will lead everyone to their fountain.

_______


Alysia said: then I thought some more that J would be so far evolved, so very enlightened, even if he did go thru with the whole show, he would know how to control pain of the body, and certainly there would be angels all around for this momentous world changing, religion-establishing business. so I wondered why Seth would say what he did, that a switcheroo occurred.

"Good question."
____

yes, and perhaps I will ask him someday, I'll say Seth, why you wanna say something so outrageous? you old buzzard you, look what you've done to our forum...not to speak of your credibility. he'd probably say, oh, I got you all thinking now didn't I? that was all I wanted to do, make you go find out the truth by yourself.
______

Alysia said: then I thought, maybe he meant he just up and left the physical body as of course any enlightened being could leave his body at will. in that case, if this is true, that would explain why Seth said "another" took his place. This other would be one who had an assignment to take his place, to make it appear as if suffering was taking place, in order so that the Christians could see, yes, indeed, it is wrong to crucify another in the name of that a good thing is happening.
but we needed a religion, didn't we? that way we could we could all have fun giving forth with our opinions that we are all such guilty people, unless the devil made us do it.
we can always blame the devil.
_________
"What are you implying, that the crucifixion was needed for the sake of Christianity
____

yes.
____


, but an enlightened being such as Jesus wasn't up to the task of following through with his sacred destiny?
____

no I'm not saying he wasn't up to the task. that's what you are saying. a being such as J can do whatever he wants, anytime he wants, anywhere he wants, and not necessarily do it the way WE want him to, according to our limited understanding of how things should work.
______


Even if this is so, it's funny that a man who supposedly had the destiny to be crucified in his place was a mentally disturbed man who had to be drugged and tricked into carrying out his duty."
____

you're right..what a dreadful picture. Now I have two things to ask Seth. my goodness, my work never ends!!  lol. I still say theres no need to throw out all of Seth's teachings just because we could never accept this one thing. but what if things didn't happen the way we think they did? would we love J any less? nope. I'd still love J with all my heart as well I would love this poor mentally disturbed, drugged person. I think that's what J would say, just keep to the love and forgiveness, and so I would have to forgive Seth too, right? I mean if it's true he said what you said he did. you could be misinterpreting or you could not have the whole truth right now.
______

Alysia said: so I don't know what happened, and just because you offer me your opinion of what you saw and understood, I don't accept your belief either. and no reason you should accept mine. it's for each of us to make our contributions here respectfully, is all the point I wish to make.
I saw the thread as getting out of hand that it all.

"I don't accept the lies of Seth, Elias and other channeled sources that state that Jesus wasn't crucified."
_____
thats ok. I don't accept anything anyone says anymore. but I do have a mind that is curious that I could be wrong what I believe, and if I'm really really curious about something, and all of you, you can get your own answers within you, I think you have to follow your heart is all. its really not important to me, what actually happened back then as like I said, there is a higher plan, and we're not privy to it most of the time.
we're just yakking here. and Elias never said the same thing Seth did, so don't confuse the two.
_______


when I read channelled material I do not automatically think because it is channelled that it's going to feed me. it's for each of us to discern, take out what is useful, meditate on it, throw out what can't be used, or store it in memory to see if another author, alive or dead, as the case may be, is supportative of the same concept.
that's how we learn.

"Out of respect for Christ I won't waste my time with sources that purposely lie about him."
_____
yes, I understand we both respect Christ and don't have a lot of time to waste on sources which do not feed the soul. yet I will offer to you once again, I do not believe Seth purposefully lied and that is your assumption. we don't have all the facts. and theres a saying out there I found to be true: "one's man's trash is another man's treasure." I derived at the time, many years ago, some useful things from Seth Speaks. personally. for instance, I had no idea people could create their own reality....

so reading about this concept gave me some direction, that no other material had as yet done. for that, I thank him. then Elias takes it even further about personal reality creating. the premise, which is indisputable, is that we can all become loving, accepting, people by speaking our truths to one another, just as you are doing now, and I am doing now, to be allowing everyone the same voice, and that we can control ourselves (how hot we get under the collar!) lol. we don't need to jump up and down, if we follow the belief what we are here for. we are here for each other.
_____


Alysia said: getting away from arguments pro or con on anything, we need to keep in mind the original posters questions..and see if they have found anything useful in our opinions offered, starting a war here is not usually beneficial to the original poster. thanks, alysia [/quote]

"A person asked a question, and differing answers have been provided. Sometimes things get a little hot under the collar when our beliefs are challenged."
____

all beliefs are just beliefs. I can see everyone has different viewpoints. we can disagree, but we can keep to harmony by respecting those we disagree with.

I think its important to communicate despite disagreements and u don't have to see another's opinion as a challenge. I was not challenging your belief, merely to put my own out there as an equal two cents.

my personal belief about you Albert is you have a pre-set bias against All channelled material. and this is strange to me, as you have loving guides around and about you, these are spirits I assume of high order.  Also it can be that one will channell a being of equal high order as your own guides, and that all of us can be having our own high order of guides around and about upon invocation, as we are all equal in the sight of all that is.

we are all quite capable of making our own discernment regarding reading material or otherwise. I notice you are always on this topic of channelled material like a fly on poop.

so something there to examine whether is all channelled material you don't like or just all the channelled material that "I" like? 

hold on. you just taught me something that Elias taught me also, Albert, you said we all get hot under the collar when our beliefs are challenged...thats like suddenly a light bulb went off..   thanks! Elias says to express yourself when this happens, not hold it in.
Elias will say its better to speak up then let it simmer on the back kettle, just so long as we don't necessarily make someone else wrong, in order for us to right.

so thanks, you're right! I'm right too. heaps of love to you! alysia

Alysia-

Well, back in the 70s I was pretty young and didn't have much experience under my belt.  I automatically assumed that if a book was channeled by some other world entity, it must be true. 

It took many years and much study to come to ask myself why such highly evolved spiritual entities would give such contradictory teachings.  Why, for example, would Seth tell us again and again that earth is a school and we are here to learn, and when we die we undergo a life review to show us the things we did that were both positive and negative, etc etc. while ACIM pretty much trashes the earth and tells us it is full of snares and traps and delusions?

Why would Seth tell us we go thru incarnations in order to learn, while ACIM tells us the things that we think are sins are really just an illusion and there is no reason to feel guilt because, after all, we never did anything wrong in the first place. 

And there are many more contradictions. 

And so I had to ask myself, what the heck do I believe?  Am I here to learn and to be accountable for my actions or inactions, or am I here because at some point (for reasons ACIM never makes clear) I decided to separate from God, and by the way I am not really accountable for my actions because everything is an illusion. Charlie Manson really never did anything wrong by killing those people, we just "think" he did.  Basically he and Mother Teresa are the same.

So then I asked myself the question that really iced it for me.  What is the agenda of the authors?  Suppose it really isn't Jesus who authored ACIM.  Why did he say he was?  Well, suppose the purpose of the book is to undermine the teachings of the Bible (which it does a very good job of)?  Suppose the author is well aware that humans would love nothing better than believing that there is no accountability and would therefore glom onto the book and its teachings with no hesitation?

I am no Bible thumping fundamentalist.  I don't believe in fire and brimstone and eternal suffering.  But I do believe our actions are important and yes, I believe there is accountability.  Not to some angry, wrathful God but ultimately to ourselves and to our own spiritual advancement. 

If all of us followed the Golden Rule, we could avoid the morass of all of these contradictory teachings.  And we would end up leading a fulfilling and enriching life. That's really all we need to know and do.

And one final word about channeling.  I would compare it with the warnings we give kids about not jumping into the deep end of the pool unless they know how to swim.  I'm concerned that lots of folks, especially younger people, simply don't have enough life experience to help them properly evaluate what they read from material such as Seth, Elias, and all the others.

And therefore I feel a measure of responsibility to at least urge them to be aware of the pitfalls before diving in.  That's all.  We can debate this forever and neither one of us will probably change our opinion, so let's call it a draw and move on.



R

Alysia-

I have no problem with anything you said.  Except (lol) when you say you disagree that I am not a Bible thumping fundamentalist!  Wow, that is about the furthest I am.  I can assure you that if I were, I would acknowledge it.  I wish I did spend more time reading the Bible even tho there are many parts of it I cannot accept and in fact makes my hair hurt.

Essentially I do believe in the teachings of Jesus but even there, there are things that I find hard to accept or even objectionable.

I lost a lifetime friend when he converted to Jehovah's Witnesses.  If I were a bible thumper, he and I would still be buds.  The only thing I thump these days is a cold bottle of beer, especially when it gets empty and I'm trying to coax out the last few drops.

Peace.

R

recoverer wrote on Apr 19^th, 2007 at 7:07pm:



Very interesting view. But what do you think about the fact Seth, from what I know, never contradicted himself? I Think that it would be very hard to not contradict yourself if it was made up...  Unless you are highly intelligent.

Gemini:

I haven't done a detailed enough study to quote seth contradictions, but I have already stated some on this thread. For example, in seth speaks he states that the hoax of the crucifixion was a physical event, while in an earlier book, the one with the pictures, he states that the crucifixion wasn't a physical event, it was a dream like event.

He also contradicts himself when he presents himself as if he speaking up for Christ, when in fact he puts Christ down. This might be intentional.


Gemini wrote on Apr 20^th, 2007 at 4:30am:

Alysia:

I wonder if Jane Roberts thought the below when she had her life review.  Did she tell the light being, "It's just a dream bub. Lighten up. Who cares if I took part in misleading people?" I don't believe a light being would judge her, but she might feel some remorse.

Even if the below does come from Christ, would he actually want people to have a "it doesn't matter, do whatever you want" attitude? If we're all one, do we want to mislead each other?




[quote author=laffingrain link=1176719814/30#42 date=1177110796]ok thread officially closed I guess! another one bites the dust!


its all a dream Albert. nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists.