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New Age Misconceptions about NDEs (Read 26843 times)
DocM
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #45 - Apr 15th, 2007 at 10:58pm
 
This is a key well done study of beings of light from NDERF.org:


Another Look at Beings Encountered During the Near Death Experience  
(Part 2 Soulmate Study)

 by Jody A. Long, J.D.


ABSTRACT: It is a common element, unique to the NDEs experience, to report seeing deceased beings.  Frequently, those seen on the other side are religious beings or deceased relatives.  This study analyzes the beings that were seen on the other side.  The datum is broken down into the categories of familiar beings and unfamiliar beings.   Of the 302 people who responded to the survey, 29% (88) saw familiar beings and 25.8% (78) saw unfamiliar beings.  Of the 166 people who saw beings, 53% saw familiar beings, while 47% saw unfamiliar beings.  The highest percentage of familiar beings seen were blood relatives (25.9%), followed by religious figures (22.9%).  Implications are discussed against the backdrop of consciousness and the Soulmate myth of popular culture.

KEY WORDS:  near-death experience; beings; Soulmates; soul mates; God, Jesus, angels, consciousness, relatives, soul, religious figures, soul cluster group

Another Look at Beings Encountered During the Near Death Experience
by Jody

Reprint requests may be sent to Jody A. Long, J.D. at blueheron78@yahoo.com



INTRODUCTION

Studies done in the late 70's and early 80's provide much of the foundation for today's understandings of the near death experience (NDE).  One of the distinguishing factors unique to NDEs is the reports of beings, deceased relatives, and the implications resulting from these contacts.  

Michael B. Sabom took great care to document his studies in his book, Recollections of Death, published in 1982 (Sabom, 1982). He showed that what NDErs saw and heard while they were dead, had a factual basis.  These people could accurately recall events happening around them.  The Dutch NDE study in 2001, headed by Pim van Lommel, replicated the phenomena and described a patient's veridical perception out-of-body experience (van Lommel, 2001).  Although there are scientists, such as Russell Noyes, who initially set out to prove that imminent death produced hallucinations of the mystical category with "intense visual imagery" representing "a more complete withdrawal from extreme circumstances (Noyes, 1984)," this cannot explain why NDErs can see, hear and accurately recall happenings in the same or other rooms.    

Just as this out of body component is considered a core and real component unique to NDEs, so is the component of meeting beings during the experience.  As noted by Charles Flynn, an early NDE researcher, he quoted the words of sociologist William I. Thomas, "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences" (Flynn, 1984, p. 279).  The sentiments were echoed by Kenneth Ring by saying, "Such experiences . . . tend to exert a powerful effect on a person's motivations, values, and conduct. . . However one chooses to interpret near-death phenomena, they are unquestionably real in their effects" (p. 279).

Kenneth Ring noted in his study, that the presence of beings could be sensed and sometimes communicated with at the stage after a person leaves their body.  (Ring, 1984) This may or may not be part of the tunnel phase.  Further, twenty percent of the persons who had experienced a presence at this stage in their NDE, reported drastic changes in their lives based upon the contact with the deceased individual.  He also noted that one-tenth of the NDErs went to the final stage he termed as "entering the light."  Beings are more commonly seen during this stage.  He commented on several persons who reported seeing deceased relatives (p. 34).

According to the Greyson NDE Scale, the transcendental component has the highest correlation with the other three components. (Greyson, 1984).  This transcendental component is defined by Ken Ring, as a transpersonal experience.  (Ring, 1984, p. 36).  The NDE is a transpersonal state of consciousness in “which an individual transcends the usual ego boundaries as well as the dimensions of time and space” (p. 36).  Therefore, based on Greyson’s scale, beings play a crucial part in the transcendental nature of the NDE.

Interestingly, on Greyson’s preliminary questionnaire, 26% saw beings.  On the final NDE scale, the question reads "Did you see deceased spirits or religious figures?" and correlated the question as part of the transcendent component unique to the near death experience (Greyson, p. 53).  Van Lommel noted that of 62 patients reporting a NDE, 32% met with deceased persons.  (van Lommel, 2001).  

Since beings represent a unique and transcendental part of the near death experience, this paper will explore what beings people encounter when they go to the other side.  This paper represents the second part of a six part study to find out about Soulmates.  The first study discussed the background of the Soulmate study as viewed through the lens of consciousness studies.  This second paper will focus on relationships between the NDEr, the living, and those on the other side.  I will also add to the knowledge of what categories of deceased beings or religious figures are most commonly reported.

METHODOLOGY

This study is a retrospective review of data received from an Internet survey on the Near Death Experience Research Foundation (NDERF) website www.nderf.org (Long, 2002).[1]  Out of a total of 626 experiences submitted to the website, 302 of these experiences met the research definition of NDE as defined as, "A lucid experience associated with perceived consciousness apart from the body occurring at the time of actual or threatened imminent death"  (Long).  It was then determined which of the 302 NDEs answered "Yes" to the question "Did you meet or see any other beings?" and "If yes or uncertain, describe.  Where were they? Did you know them? What was communicated?"  Earth beings seen during the veridical perception phase of the NDE were excluded.  

Dr. Long developed an Excel based chi-square calculation engine based on over 2,000 data points.  Calculations are automatically updated when new data is added.

Out of the 302 NDEs, 212 (70.1%) reported encountering beings.  The beings were divided into familiar and unfamiliar categories based upon whether they described beings or not.  Out of the 212 who reported encountering beings, only 166 (78%) described the beings they encountered.  Each account was counted only once.  Beings counted were those beings that were seen, sensed, and part of the universal consciousness.  

In the familiar category, there were divisions for religious beings, blood relatives, relatives, and other.  In the unfamiliar category, divisions were for male, female, genderless, and others.  Although many people reported seeing more than one being during their experience, the count is one NDE and one being.  For example, while Jesus may have been seen in the same experience as Grandma was seen, Jesus also appeared in 21 other different experiences.  Grandma was tabulated once and Jesus was tabulated once for this one experience.  

Analysis was also performed on the two categories: 1) all beings; and 2) only familiar beings.  Each group was then compared in terms of age of the experiencer at the time of the NDE and whether they saw multiple, one or two beings.  Multiple NDEs and those that an age was not given could not be used.  

RESULTS

Of the 302 people who responded to the survey, 29% (88) saw familiar beings and 25.8% (78) saw unfamiliar beings.  Of the 166 people who saw beings, 53% saw familiar beings, while 47% saw unfamiliar beings.  For those experiences who saw multiple beings, they may have been counted in several categories of familiar and unfamiliar beings.  However, for each being that was seen, there was only one experience counted.  For instance, in one account, a person may have seen Jesus and non-specific angels.  Jesus would have been tabulated once under familiar religious figures, and there would be a tabulation mark for unfamiliar religious figures.  Out of 166 experiencers who saw beings, this one experience would count only once as seeing Jesus.  Also, of 166 experiencers who saw beings, this one experience would count only once as seeing non-specific angels.  Therefore, it is valid to say that a total of 38 experiencers saw Jesus or a total of 9 experiencers saw angels.  However, it would be incorrect to cross-compare those experiences seeing multiple beings by using all of the tabulated experiences below such as n=226.  The break down of familiar and unfamiliar beings is as follows:      

Familiar Beings

n=166
Total
%
 
Total
%

Religious
38
22.9
 
Jesus
21
12.7
 
God
9
5.4

Angels
8
4.8

Blood Relatives
43
25.9
 
Grandmother
16
9.6

Grandfather
8
4.8

Father
7
4.2
 
Mother
5
3.0
   
Son
3
1.8
 
Daughter
1
0.6
 
Brother
2
1.2
 
Aunt
1
0.6

Relatives
9
5.4
 
Father-in-law
2
1.2
 
Significant Other
2
1.2

Non-specified
5
3.0

Friends
10
6.0
 
 10
6.0

Other
26
15.7  
 
Famous People
1
0.6
 
Cartoons
1
0.6

At one with all
4
2.4

Animals
2
1.2

 
Familiar Unknown
16
9.6
 
Loved ones
1
0.6
 
Devil
1
0.6

Unfamiliar Beings

People
62
37.3
 
Male
11
6.6
 
Female
6
3.6
 
Beings
44
26.1
 
Genderless
1
0.6

Other
38
22.9
 
Talked to or felt a presence
22
13.3
 
Angel
9
5.4

Demon/Shadows
6
3.6
 
Animal
1
0.6


A t-test was done for whether there was any correlation to seeing beings, whether or not the beings were familiar, blood relatives, or religious figures.  There is no correlation between age and what beings are seen where p value accepted as significant is p<0.01.  However, there is a trend towards seeing familiar beings and blood relatives if p<0.05.  Below are the results:

T-test
 p value

Saw beings
0.873

Familiar beings
0.037

Religious beings
0.687

Blood Relatives
0.050


Using the same criteria as the t-test except breaking the data into age groups, the chi square table shows no correlation between age and what beings are seen, if any.  The age groups used were children (0-17), ages 18-40, and age 41 and over.  There was a trend (.099) towards the older an experiencer was at the time of their NDE, the higher chance they would encounter a familiar being.

I also tried smaller categories to see if it would make a difference.  I used the ages 0-12, 13-17, 18-25, 26-40, 41-55, and 56 and over.  There was a trend (.062) towards older people to see blood relatives.  Although the correlation between expected and observed for seeing familiar beings was .094, there was no trend.  Some age groups and others were down, with no clear pattern.

The datum was divided into how many beings were seen during the experience.  It looks like the ratio of beings per experience is about the same regardless of whether or not the beings are familiar, and that it is slightly more common to see one being instead of many beings.  Below are the results:

All Beings
Total n = 166
%
Familiar Beings Only
Total n = 88
%

Multiple
71
42.8
Multiple
38
43.2

One Being
77
46.4
One Being
40
45.5

Two Beings
18
10.8
Two Beings
10
11.4


There is no correlation between age and the likelihood of seeing one or more beings.  The ratios between the categories of “all beings” and “familiar beings” remains fairly constant: with a slightly greater chance of encountering only one being during the experience.

There were many statistically significant correlations that cannot be attributed to chance alone.  The chi square results are shown below:

n=250, p<.01 Seeing Beings  
Beautiful locations 3.87E-09
Universal Order/Purpose 3.59E-05
Seeing a Light 2.92E-05
Decision to Return 5.38E-05
Tunnel 0.000903576
Share Experience 0.000501235
Life Change 0.001414808
Changed Beliefs 0.008022381
Future Life Events 0.004492182

Those who encountered beings were more likely to perceive of a universal purpose or order.  Additionally, those who saw beings were more likely to report the classic NDE elements of seeing a light, beautiful locations, and the tunnel.  Reports of seeing future events was more likely to be delivered by other beings.  Other beings were associated with the decision to return.  Those who reported seeing beings were more likely to have changed beliefs and a life change.  They were also slightly more likely to share their experience with others.  

DISCUSSION

Compared to Greyson and van Lommel, 49% of NDErs responding to the web survey said they saw beings.  Some of the increased number could be explained by what was scored as a being.  Prior subjects may well have focused on literally what they could see.  Our study was more inclusive in that it included beings whose presence could be sensed and those beings that may not have been human, such as angels.  In the van Lommel study, it is unclear if the answers included religious figures.

While many of the results of the chi-square analysis make sense intuitively, this is the first time these results have been scientifically verified.  With p<.01 and n=250, the results are highly reliable.  Seeing beings seems to serve an integral part of both, the NDE itself and the integration process of the NDE afterwards.  Those who reported contact with other beings during the NDE, were involved in the decision to return and they had a sense of universal purpose.  Those who saw beings were more likely to have changed beliefs and a life change, suggesting that the universal purpose or order is different than earthly purpose and order.  It would logically follow that the changes would incorporate the new understandings gained from the NDE but this is beyond the scope of this paper.  However, the topic will be more fully explored in an upcoming paper entitled, "New Religious Understandings from the Near-Death Experience."

Out of the initial 212 who reported seeing beings, 78.3% (166) described the beings they saw or sensed.  Although there is no significant correlation as to whether individuals see familiar or unfamiliar beings, or whether the beings are blood relatives or not, there is a trend towards seeing familiar beings and for seeing blood relatives.  

The highest percentage of familiar beings seen were blood relatives (25.9%), followed by religious figures (22.9%).  In looking at whether the angels (or the opposite) were counted among familiar beings, they were counted as familiar if they were named or called “guardian angel.”  If non-specific, they were counted as unfamiliar.  Also of interest is the categories of “familiar unknowns” (. 1%) and the “at one with all” (.02%).  There is a weak trend that the older an experiencer is at the time of the NDE, the more likely they will see blood relatives.  Religious figures are seen and recognized by all ages.

In reports of unfamiliar beings, it seems more likely that gender is not important, or at least not as important as other characteristics.  People report them as just “beings” or a “presence.”  

It makes sense that more people would see their grandparents on the other side because grandparents would be more likely to pass to the other side than parents, siblings, or children.  However, it is curious that grandfathers would more likely appear with grandmothers than to appear solely by themselves.  This is a bit odd in light of the fact that only two people saw significant others on the other side.  Although it can be said that seeing significant others on the other side would be less likely due to relative similarity in the age of the experiencer and the significant other, it seems odd that more significant others were not seen on the other side.  This would make one wonder about the popular conception of Soulmates.  

Data gathered from the www.adcrf.org website about after death communications (ADC) also shows a curious link between blood relatives and communication between loved ones.  Analyzed were 238 contributions to the ADC website form exploring the relationship between the deceased and the person reporting the ADC. Surprisingly, 46 (19%) of the contacts occurred within 24 hours or less. Moreover, 35 (76%) of the 46 contacts occurred between blood relatives. Only 5 (14%) occurred between significant others.

In 2001, a study of 120 NDEs using NDERF data collected from the www.nderf.org website, a surprising find was that more parents came back for children, grandparents for grandchildren, or children came back for parents, than any other reason when given a choice to return to earth or not.  

The connection between blood relatives and consciousness is intriguing.  It is my hypothesis that traditional views of relationship roles are very different than the myths of popular culture.  A possible pattern that fits the data is that we may be seeing a spectrum of relationships across the board of consciousness.  

Religious figures could be on one end of the spectrum and represent the larger cosmic group we belong to.  This is further supported by NDE reports of becoming part of the greater cosmic consciousness.  The fact that NDErs mention familiar unnamed beings is significant as it could suggest some kind of predestination or soul recognition of another group member.  

Relatives could represent a microcosm of our own, unique soul group that we travel through time with.  There clearly are some connections between blood relatives that would suggest purpose, or at least preconceived knowledge of the existing bond that affects our relationship on earth.  Many times, the expressed desire is to teach, comfort or protect the person on this side.  The most exciting concept of relatives has to do with the relationship between the DNA of relatives and the observed soul bond.  These soul cluster groups appear to be what we would really envision when we think of a Soulmate; someone with whom we spend eternity.  

There are many reasons why we consider significant others as Soulmates according to our cultural myths.  From this study, it does not appear that significant others are as likely to be with us in the hereafter as it does for blood relatives.  However, I would stress that this does not mean that significant others cannot be with us on the other side.  Grandparents appearing in pairs would suggest that significant others can remain together.  

In future papers, I will discuss the role of the significant other and hope to explore how they might fit into our development of consciousness. Additionally, the focus on relationships will be discussed as part of the universal order and purpose.



[1] For a more detailed discussion on the methodology, see Long, J. and Long, J. (2002) A Comparison of NDEs Occurring Before and After 1975 Results from a Web Survey of Near Death Experiencers, The Journal of Near Death Studies, x, x-x.



I would like to give a hearty thanks to John Paul Long, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus in Pharmacology, University of Iowa, for his editorial and research comments.

REFERENCES

Flynn, C. (1984). The Near-Death Experience: Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (pp. 267-279).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Greyson, B. (1984). The Near-Death Experience Scale, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (pp. 45-59).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Long, J. and Long, J. (2002) http://www.nderf.org, http://www.adcrf.org

Noyes, R. and Slyman, D. (1984) The Subjective Response to Life-Threatening Danger, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (pp. 26).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Ring, K. (1984) Further Studies of the Near-Death Experience, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (p. 30-36).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Sabom, M. (1982) Recollections of Death: A Medical Investigation. New York: Harper & Row.

van Lommel, P. et al. (2001) Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands, The Lancet, 358, 2039-2042.



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DocM
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #46 - Apr 15th, 2007 at 11:38pm
 
One of the conclusions I have drawn from this study is that meeting religious leaders, while documented, is by no means the path of the majority of reports on NDEs.  Meetings with family members are much more common.  I have pulled up many case reports from NDERF.org, and found that many NDEs are vague, many do not include conversations such as was documented by Howard Storm.  Most are reported on an emotional level, and described as being difficult to put into words.  Evenso, all appear to be life-transforming.

Thus, I am not sure that encounters with major religious figures are going to be the lynch pin or key to understanding the post mortem state or NDE.


Matthew
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #47 - Apr 15th, 2007 at 11:49pm
 
Thanks DocM for that information..
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #48 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 12:54am
 
Matthew,

I too appreciated your summation of an NDE study. I've always had the impression that deceased relatives form part of the greeting party much more often than religious figures.   What confuses me is how the BL is counted in this summation.   Is it only counted as a religious figure if the NDEr projects an indentification on to it or when the BL actually identifies itself? 

In any case, with respect to your PM, I wanted to share what I've discovered about Muslim Azmina Suleman's NDE book "A Passage to Eternity."  I have not read her book and am relying on a laudatory review by Shamir Ladhami.  According to him, she identifes the BL not as Muhammad, but as God just as my prior research would predict.  Did Diane Corcoran [an IANDS official] give you the impression that Azmina indentified the BL as Muhammad? 

What also troubles me is her claim to recall past earthly incarnations.  I wonder if she was already an ex-Muslim at the time of her NDE.  Muslims don't believe in reincarnation.  In any case, as you know, Swedenborg too experiences past lives during his astral explorations, but learns in higher heavens that these reincarnation memories are bogus.  He learns that these memories are merely those of spirits with whom one is unwittingly connected during one's astral journey.  Other NDEers too are emphatically told that reincarnation is a false doctrine.

One of my criteria in assessing astral reincarnation claims is whether the alleged memories simulate famous movie events.  Azmina alleges a past life as "a Roman soldier denying a drink to a wayfarer."  In the academy award-winning movie "Ben Hur," a Roman soldier does just that.  For that reason alone, her past life recall seems delusory.  Still, I hope to track down her book at Barnes and Nobles.

Don
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #49 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 12:59am
 
I pulled this quote from NDERF.org from a review of Azmina's book, Don:

" I met Azmina at the 2005 annual IANDS Conference.  She is a really nice lady.  The power of this book for me is that it is one of the few Muslim NDEs that we have had the privilege to read, yet presents a very balanced account without drawing too much of her religious background into it.  One of my favorite parts was when she met the Prophet Muhammad - Jody"

I also managed to find Azmina's website and email her - so once again, I am hopeful that we can learn more information directly from the source.


Matthew
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #50 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 1:52am
 
What are you doing here in the 'New Age Ghetto(your words)'...ala- Afterlife forum???
Please explain?.... Posting since 2001, you must have learnt something!?...gman
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #51 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 8:06am
 
Thanks Matthew, I agree the idea of DT is ghastly and seriously flawed in the thought of this binary doctrine.  However, some of what he says does make sense and this is what I’m questioning. Conscious energy on its way to the physical does split into duality at the astral level of our being to create the physical at birth.  When we let go of the body at death the energy fields associated with the physical disappear while the person maintains the higher spiritual energy fields.  We block and distort the energy flow because of fear and our belief in separation and we create disease in the physical body even though unity and the holographic model of the brain and the universe still exists.  What is plausible about some of Novak’s website postings is that this belief in separation creates our afterlife experiences that could shed some light on some of these questions regarding NDE, ADC and memory loss as well as the hellish realms, etc.

Anyway, I don’t want to take this thread off topic.  I wish I had more time to research some of these things  Thanks for the research you’re doing! 

Love, Kathy
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Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.
 
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #52 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 8:43am
 
Don,


There was a mix up of names at the NDERF site.  A woman named Anita emailed me to say that she had a NDE but had not seen religious figures.  For Azmina Suleman, the review I posted before by Joy does state that she met with the prophet Mohammed.  Will try to get more information...


Matthew
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #53 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 12:29pm
 
I visisted Nowak's site for a short time, and as Doc does, I believe he goes too far with the split self thing.  I believe our souls have a conscious mind that makes use of the thought patterns and memories that are stored in what is refered to as our subconscious mind. I don't see how mind could operate without a repository of memories. The trick is to get to the point where we can have such a repository without being controlled by it.  We do so my learning to live according to divine wisdom, love and will. Perhaps Nowak is so intent on coming up with something new, that he's listening to his repository too much.
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #54 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 12:36pm
 
Regarding what Kathy wrote,

When it comes to NDEs I believe there is some variance. If a person lets go of his or her preconceived notions sufficiently enough, the spirit presences he or she makes contact with during an NDE can deliver the messages they want to deliver. A person such as Howard Storm received too much detailed information for his experience to just be the result of what his subconsious mind told him.

One of the most stunning things about my night in heaven experience is that I went from a state of not knowing to a state of knowing in a manner that was automatic and immediate.  I knew and understood right away that it is true about God, Christ and the afterlife.





[quote author=Lights of Love link=1176353717/45#51 date=1176725194]  What is plausible about some of Novak’s website postings is that this belief in separation creates our afterlife experiences that could shed some light on some of these questions regarding NDE, ADC and memory loss as well as the hellish realms, etc.
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #55 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 1:12pm
 
recoverer wrote on Apr 16th, 2007 at 12:29pm:
I visisted Nowak's site for a short time, and as Doc does, I believe he goes too far with the split self thing.  I believe our souls have a conscious mind that makes use of the thought patterns and memories that are stored in what is refered to as our subconscious mind. I don't see how mind could operate without a repository of memories. The trick is to get to the point where we can have such a repository without being controlled by it.  We do so my learning to live according to divine wisdom, love and will. Perhaps Nowak is so intent on coming up with something new, that he's listening to his repository too much.

I agree, with your statement as well.. Also, what I don't agree with on his site is the fact that we can lose our souls.. Plus, I don't believe in the devil and demons as he insist there are...
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #56 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 5:28pm
 
I think Novak is working on things, he hasn't taken it far enough is all.

my thesis is the human is a thing that is becoming, that becoming is a constant and continues after exit of the body.
I'm with Doc's generalizations, except for the use of the word rubbish, lol!

my thought regarding the subcon. and the conscious state of C1 is that access to the unconscious becomes more accessible as we advance in linear time. the unconscious mind can also be seen as part and parcel of the collective unconscious. thusy the afterlife areas can be seen as a merging back into a subjective realm, while still retaining individuality within experience of our trek.

you do have the appearance of division here in the physical; appearance should not be considered an absolute state of affairs however. in other words what it "looks" like is not the whole truth.

According to Monroe, we have the brain itself split into two hemispheres, the idea being that to get the two halves of the brain to work simultaneously, aids in becoming a more aware person, both in unconscious areas, and in conscious areas. with this type of merge, balance, we proceed to design our own afterlife circumstances bypassing many of the BST's or places where it is subjective consciousness.

here on Earth we have an objective consciousness, although some would argue this point, I would say the objective is to stay alive first, and then acquire all other goals and aspirations is to be in objective mode.. the persons whom I have retrieved were in a subjective state. they were subjected to their memories as they identified themselves this way. This is because they had not thought much about what they would "do" upon exit of their physical body. thats why it's important to think about our afterlife, so that we can retain some of our objectives and not be floaters who would be needing assistance. as I see it, both states, subjective and objective should work hand in hand or be developed to work together as a goal. Those things we dwell on, here or there, dreaming or awake are effecting to be demonstrated after our exit because thought is made of creative stuff.
as a man thinketh...so shall he be.

on another note..lol...I asked god once if he would take back my life and use it as he saw fit.  He retorted back..what do u think life is? a department store? where you can exchange the gift of life I gave to you for another life?

I sorta got put in my place after that. Smiley


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Dr. Atwater Provides evidence of a Muslim NDE
Reply #57 - Apr 17th, 2007 at 3:02pm
 
Dr. Atwater has kindly kept us in mind and recounts this case from her files on NDEs:

It was an adult experiencer.  He was from Egypt, a Muslim, and had received a grant to attend a particular school in Minneapolis, Minnesota.  He was driving a cab when I met him - earning money for living expenses while in school.  I had just arrived in town and needed a cabbie to drive me to my destination.  It was a long drive.  On the way, we were discussing the city, its industries and population (among my favorite topics), when he veered away from the conversation and started telling me about the time he had died a few years before, back in Egypt.  He was hospitalized and his vital signs failed.  There was no tunnel.  He was first lying on a gurney, then out-of-body, where he saw the entire healing arena, including patients behind closed doors.  He described them and what was happening to each, then he spoke of increasing light until it nearly blinded him and obscured the view.  He said he  felt as if, somehow, he had shifted his position and had entered another realm elsewhere.  This light to him seemed to blast out.  There was just more and more light, radiant beams of light, and out of this light advanced a man.  He said he was a man dressed in light, and he called him Mohammed.  I asked him how did he know the figure was Mohammed since there are no historical pictures of him anywhere.  He said he just knew, he absolutely knew.  It couldn't be anyone else.  It was Mohammed.  He went on and on about how blessed he was to see Mohammed, the real Mohammed, and how Mohammed had asked him what he had done to help his people.  It was then, right then, that the Egyptian fellow made a promise that he would go to America and get a degree and come back and help his people.  He was effusive about his promise to Mohammed and about going to school.  The man was intent, passionate, about what he was doing.  He was single-minded and not interested in dating or social affairs - only in getting his degree and going back to Egypt.  He seemed relieved to have shared his story with me and thanked me for listening.

PMH
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Re: Dr. Atwater Provides evidence of a Muslim NDE
Reply #58 - Apr 17th, 2007 at 3:48pm
 
The below line suggests a lack of openess.

[quote author=DocM link=1176353717/45#57 date=1176836568]Dr. Atwater has kindly kept us in mind and recounts this case from her files on NDEs:

It couldn't be anyone else.
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Re: New Age Misconceptions about NDEs
Reply #59 - Apr 17th, 2007 at 4:08pm
 
"There was just more and more light, radiant beams of light, and out of this light advanced a man.  He said he was a man dressed in light, and he called him Mohammed.  I asked him how did he know the figure was Mohammed since there are no historical pictures of him anywhere.  He said he just knew, he absolutely knew.  It couldn't be anyone else.  It was Mohammed."
________________________________________________________

Thanks for posting Dr. Atwater's case, Matthew.  It is the first of its kind that I've encountered and I wonder how rare this Muslim's NDE claim is.  In astral reality, all communication is telepathic.  So it is often hard to identify the line between the BL's communication of an identity and the patient's projection of an identity on to the BL  In this case, the Muslim seems to project the Muhammad identification.  By comparison, what I look for in the BL's self-identification as Christ are unmistakable communications from the BL that make this identity obvious.   Both Betty Eadie and Howard Storm received such clear comments in their conversation with the BL (= Jesus).  If the patient claims, "I just know it was Jesus," I conclude that he is probably projecting this identification.  Still, I have never even heard of a single dying Muslim alleging that he met Muhammad in an NDE.  So your example is important to me. 

Dr. Atwater's case raises another possible source of confusion in NDE research.  The BL is a lumionous man, but he emerges from the Light rather than actually being the Light itself.  In other NDE cases, the BL is the whole Light event.  Deceased relatives often appear in NDEs are luminous beings.  So I wonder whether this Muslim case should count as a BL.  In any case, Matthew, I can't get enough of such cases.  So please post more cross-cultural NDEs as you encounter them.

Thanks,
Don
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