[Matt:] "Don, what exactly is the purpose of your challange to show adult muslims or buddhists having NDEs seeing other light figures, other than Christ?  It sounds as if you doubt that these NDEs occur at all."
___________________________________________

An unwarranted inference!  If Muslim and Buddhist NDEs are bogus, then Christian NDEs may also well be bogus.   

[Matt: ] "The inference then, would be that the being of light who meets people in NDEs is almost always Jesus..."
_________________________

There is good evidence that Jesus identifies Himself as the Being of Light to non-Christians and atheists.  But your phrase "almost always" unfairly puts words in my mouth.  I repeat: the radiance of the BL varies and this variation may already suggest that different "personalities" appear as luminous beings to different people, depending on their background and level of spiritual development.  The actual percentages must be determined by actual case studies and not be New Age or Christian dogma.

[Matt:] "By the way, her website states she is reading emails, and as such, I have taken the liberty to emaill her about our current debate - so be careful what you wish for, Don)."
___________________

Again, your reply is replete with unwarranted aassumptions.  As hard as it may be for you to imagine, I am not simply trying to justify a preconceived perspective.  I have read NDE experts who deny that Muhammad appears as a self-identified Being of  Light to Muslims.  Many NDEs muddy the waters with hallucinatory contamination.   So as I've said, it is the overall patterns that matter.   As a mere starting point, I merely ask for ONE NDE IN AN ADULT MUSLIM'S OWN WORDS in which the BL identifies itself as Muhammad.  Period.   The BL often identifies itself as Jesus, even to atheists.  New Agers often claim that the BL identifies itself as Muhammad or Buddha.  So when an expert on Asian NDEs goes on the radio and claims that Buddha is never identified as the BL in thousands of Far Eastern cases, I simply want to determine the significance of this, given contrary New Age claims.  I merely ask for documentation in the eyewitnesses' words.  Is this not a reasonable request?   I welcome such reports from Atwater or anyone else if they are  in the patients' words!  I'm merely trying to cut through the propaganda and contradictory claims to determine the actual replicable patterns. 

The same holds true for your image about "one white crow" establishing OBEs.
Where is this "white crow?"   I believe in OBEs, but find the lab evidence alarmingly inconclusive.  One alleged success is unsatisfactory because it might be rationalized in a variety of ways, including cheating.  The "white crow" must be a replicated lab demonstration by an OBE adept with verifications that cannot be explained as ESP derived from a still living mind.

[Matt:] "...Moody's documented data encompass close to 8000 NDEs, dwarfing any other database on record.  You have not reviewed their cases, and are not therefore equipped to make sweeping generalizations about who is or is not encountered in different cultures."
____________________________________ 

Again, you miss the point.   The most developed cases are the most important. 
I repeat: the very case that prompted Moody to pioneer NDE research (the TGeorge Ritchie case) already refutes his unwarranted generalization that the BL does not identify itself.  So do several other of the most impressive NDE cases like Betty Eadie's NDE.  And Moody celebrates the Ritchie NDE as one of the most compelling that he has ever encountered.
 
[Matt:] "My challenge to you stands; that is show me one, just one "noble savage," who is not schooled in Knowledge of JC (muslims are), who has a NDE and brings back an encounter with JC or the son of God (or any other suitable appellation from historical sources).  Failure to do so will support the very New Age ideas that you love to call "misconceptions."
__________________________________

Nonsense!  Why would Jesus make a claim that might upset and confuse a "noble savage" who has never heard of Him?  Besides, the historical Jesus did not confront people with a claim to be the Christ, not even His own disciples!  Instead, He waited for them to discern this through His example and gracious deeds.  In fact, Peter is the first of the Twelve to confess Jesus as the Messiah (Mark 8:27-30; Matthew 16:13-17) and Peter only makes this confession late in Jesus' ministry. Jesus responds, "Blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah; for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in Heaven (Matthew 16:17)."  Jesus is "flesh and blood."  So Jesus reminds Peter that, prior to this, He has never claimed to be the Messiah.

Swedenborg (a maverick), Howard Storm (then an atheist), and Betty Eadie (then a disillusioned ex-Christian)  independently receive astral teaching about EVENTUAL postmortem education about Jesus' divine status and redemptive role.  But Jesus is a Person, not a religion.   There is no need to believe that pagan Heavens are thoroughly christianized.  Pagan heavens may be crafted to satisfy the prior expectations of loving peoples of other faiths and cultures. 

Don

Doc:

Personally, I have no problem with people meeting a being of light other than Jesus Christ.  Some people meet their deceased relatives. Nothing wrong with that. I don't believe the importance of Christ's role is determined by who people meet during a near death experience. There is more to it than this.




DocM wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 4:40pm:

It has been mentioned here, in the replies, that jesus is in charge of the human race. This
guy(jesus) reminds me of a Saddam Hussien, Idi Amin, that guy in charge of North Korea,
etc, etc, ...I mean they sit back in their palaces, sip 100 year old Brandy, live in luxury,
get worshiped by the population(mostly through fear) etc, while some of the population
suffers starvation, endures curable diseases, murder and torture, child abuse and slavery,
and the list goes on and on. I mean, why don't we vote this jesus out. After all we have
got free will? ...What a lousy job he's doing. Just look at the electorate, planet earth. It's
a friggin mess. Africa's a basket case, poverty and disease everythere, natural disasters,
and much, much, more. His resume commonly called the bible, tells us, with a wave of his
hand he can control weather, heal sickness, feed the masses, and more. Hey! Why are
we waiting???...And who voted him in in the first place? A one candidate election! Sounds
communist or fascist to me. Let's bring Democracy in and impeach this jesus. All it takes
is 51% of the voting earthly population to give him the big finger. I suggest we should
have a choice of three or more candidates with a term of no more than 5 years. Do your
job or you're OUT! Sounds fair to me....Gman.   

GMan,

The point that christians point to is not that Jesus is supposed to be making a utopia here for everyone.  It is that when the human soul embraces love, love of others and God, unconditional love, then the soul should recognizes Jesus as the light and the way to heaven.  That his example of life, forgiveness and charity is a perfect prototype for spiritual growth.  Jesus' being in charge in heaven does not mean that he personally causes or is in charge of all the suffering and injustice that occurs in the physical world.  Free will allows men to create their own injustice and savagery right here on earth.


Matthew

[Matt:] "...You should not feign righteous indignation at my remarks.  The title of this thread implies that New Age thought is wrong - period."
___________________________________________________

Even after being confronted with your refusal to actually reread me closely, you continue to mischaracterize what I actually argue.  This demonstrates your bias and requires me AGAIN  to repeat myself.  I guess I must quote myself to again address the 3 bogus New Age misconceptions discussed:

(1) "People `see' either who or what they expect."
As I have pointed out, the cross-cultural study of  Drs. Osis and Haraldsson refutes this generalization.  One might argue that Christians expect to see Jesus or God and, of course, they routinely do in their NDEs.  But I routinely encounter Christians who dismiss this identification as a misleading spirit impersonation.  It is not New Age NDE thought in general, but these 3 specific points that I challenge.  Sigh!

(2) "They will see the leader of their own religion."
This generalization needs to be justified by NDE patterns, not by mere New Age presumption or even by a few examples, especially in view of the denial of this generalization by some NDE researchers.

(3) While people may `believe' they are seeing Jesus, they are actually seeing
     a `being of light [by implication, not Jesus].'"

To quote my initial post, "NDE researchers like Ray Moody often recklessly claim that the BL does not identify itself, but is instead subject to a projected identity from the dying."  In two of the most impressive and in depth NDEs (atheist Howard Storm's  and Betty Eadie's), the BL makes His identity as Jesus clear.  Such Christian examples can be multiplied.  Indeed, the BL often makes His identity as Jesus clear to atheists!  Jesus' appearance to Ahmed leads to his cure from AIDs and even converts him from Islam to Christianity.

[Matt:] "Yet you freely admit that you merely want to analyze information about Muslim and Buddhist NDEs."
______________________ 

Given the irrespoinsible New Age generalizations, I want to know the BL identification patterns that cross-cultural research actually demonstrates.  If their findings conflict with each other, someone's research is probably sloppy or even distorted by a hidden agenda.  I eagerly await Atwater's report both of her NDE cross-cultural patterns and especially of her specific example of a Muslim adult's identification of the BL as Muhammad.  This must be in the actual words of the dying Muslim.  I need to be able to correct for "spin."   

[Matt:] "You throw the word "bogus" around and seem to imply you can tell a hallucination from a real NDE encounter."
______________________________________

I repeat: dying and very sick people often hallucinate.   That is a given.  What is more important are the findings of Drs. Osis and Haraldsson about the frequency of hallucinations in the 1,000 NDEs they studied from the USA and India. The issue of what I personally deem bogus is irrelevant to my point.
 
[Matt:] "You mention them as a backhanded admission that maybe other light beings are seen aside from Jesus, but they are always duller than him."
______________________________________________________

Again, you just don't seem able to read.  I never commented on the relative brightness of Jesus and other BLs.  I merely made that point that the varying brightness of the BLs seems to indicate they may not be the same "person."
The claim that Jesus routinely appears brighter than our sun implies nothing about the brightness of potentially alternative BL personalities.

[Matt:] "Dr. Atwater has stated that Buddhists report seeing the Buddha and Muslims Mohammed.  On what basis do you have to say that her 4000+ adult archives are bogus?  Why do you not accept her word at face value, when you accepted the Asian study on Coast to Coast at face value?"
_____________________________________________

The NDE expert on "Coast to Coast" (3,000 ASIAN cases) denied that Buddha appears to Buddhists.  How many Asian cases has Atwater studied?   Even if she has discovered a few cases of Buddha appearing to Buddhists, the problem of potential hallucinations requres a PATTERN of Buddha routinely appearing to Buddhists.  The host of near-death.com claims that Muslims identify the BL as Allah, not as Muhammad and I have search both the internet and my own NDE books in vain to discover a single case of a Muslim adult identifying the BL as Muhammad.  One or two exceptions would be expected given the widespread hallucinations of the very sick and dying.  So again, the pattern of BL identifications is what matters most. 

Don

Dear all

I really do need to take a break and leave you all in peace!

Before I go if I may just say - I think you all great, you are wonderful people and in the push and pull of internet talking I think this forum does pretty well in communicating to one another.

Matthew; you were totally right to say what you said about the ramming down the throat part,  I have always appreciated honest comment : you just have to say it straight!  I was no attacking Judaism and the OT, please for one minute do not think that (although it is not my words in the NT) the way I see it is it is not an attack it is pure love - if you noticed St. Paul said through Christ the Gentiles receive judgment - he didn't say Judaism receives judgment through Christ - that is a huge statement.  He is saying the sacrifical lamb in the OT has become Christ - for you.  And in my case, being a gentile, I think receiving judgment is awesome - it is our check and balance, we can only grow through this. 

Dave wrote a great post and in this; we need to understand the personal psychology of what each person has encountered.  What's been happening here from my perspective is - I have a deep love for Christ (nothing unusual) and I was so surprised and confused when I realised other people don't (that much) couldn't understand it! Why don't people love Christ (!) - so everytime someone said something against this, my love for Christ gets deeper and this came out in my communication.  And in turn everytime I said something it brought more of the against in the same manner - so really it's like a dog chasing it's own tail - instead of us all not thinking why it blooms but it just blooms.
This is my personal pyschology point of view; I'm not saying I'm the only one who talks about Christ.
We are all in this World together - and we should bloom as naturally as we can without hurting one another.

Alysia; when I said that to you after you said that to Don - I was shocked and that was my reaction - everything I say and do weighs on my conscious and you know those are just words flung out.  I would dearly like you and Don to become friends.

I have deleted that awful post under the Sun topic - Ralph again my conscious - I get freaked out about things being put down your neck; to me it's not right you don't need it - my point of view of course - but you are individually yourself - why do we need aliens to do this - can't understand it! 

And now I've said my piece I leave you with a song - oh and Aries can't let the month go by without saying happy birthday to Aries!  It's quite long but if you've got the time to read it I hope you enjoy it.

Is it getting better
or do you feel the same
will it make it easier on you now
you got someone to blame
yes its
one love
one life
when it's one need
in the night
one love
we get to share it
as usual baby you don't care for it
did I disappoint you
leave a bad taste in your mouth
you act like you never had love
and you won't need to go without
well its
too late
tonight
to drag the past out into the light
we one but we not the same
we get to carry each other
carry each other
have you come here for forgiveness
have you come to raise the dead
have you come to play Jesus
to the lepers in your head
did I ask too much
more than I got
you gave me nothing its all
I got
we hurt each other
and we doing it again
you say love is a temple
love is a high
you ask me to enter
then you make me crawl
and I can't be holding on to
what you got
when all I got is
one love
one life
when you should do what you should
we one but we not the same
we get to carry each other
brothers and sisters
one love

u2 - one love 

Keep well everyone - will pop in and say hi every now and then
Love and peace.
Caryn

Ps:  Chum - God needs you come on b-the-man!

Gman:

You want Jesus to mow your lawn for you too?

If a person opens his or her life to Christ he or she will receive help. It isn't forced on anybody. Christ isn't responsible for the way the World is. He's not going to guide us like a bunch of puppets.  "Some" people behave in the manner they do because they don't live according to love, which is what Christ is about.

I've had experiences with Christ that couldn't possibly be duplicated by the people you named. The only thing you show when you write such a "thing" is that you haven't taken the time to seriously consider the matter. You just looked for somebody to throw eggs at.

What's the "G" stand for? Gullible? You accepted the first answer your ego based mind threw at you?




Gman wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 9:29pm: