Chum,

You haven't passed over yet, and you don't know what your encounters would be like then.  You hear on this site that we all create our own afterlife experience one way or another.  If you create a hell, you may be there until your consciousness was willing to accept other alternatives.

But you assume an awful lot.   You assume you won't feel a huge change in spirit.  You also assume that you are being denied oblivion by some superhuman being.  Yet you haven't experienced anything telling you that any of your thoughts are true.


M

[quote author=blink link=1175716071/0#2 date=1175718239]Chum, you know Shakespeare said it best......


To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.


But, yes, we hear you!

I agree with Matthew....there are a lot of assumptions made about this version of "god" that you describe.  I personally think hell is in the eye of the beholder. All this "lake of fire" kind of imagery is just nothing I've ever seen in any of my meditations. I have seen some characters who don't seem to feel too great where they are, but helpers seem to be on the way.

Oblivion? Hmmmnnnnn.....well isn't that delicious feeling of going to sleep worth waiting for?  Maybe you can have that feeling over and over in the afterlife however much you want. 

Just like in the movie Groundhog Day where the day repeats over and over.....it would be YOUR OWN PERSONAL version of heaven.  You'd be putting your weary head down to sleep, knowing you don't have to get up in the morning, ever again.  Over and over and over and over.

Think of it!  The pleasure of it!  Forever falling asleep, over and over and over and over and over...
*****************
Maybe that might be O.K., IF I can PERMANENTLY trim away all my memories of my
life, of who I was, or ANY knowledge ( whatsoever!) that I was EVER a conscious entity here on Earth. Perhaps then, I'd have a finctional oblivion, which got progressively deeper the longer I was in it.
AND I'd have to make sure I didn't DREAM, either.
Still, it would be a pi$$-poor substite for being annnihilated...

B-man

Ha ha, chumly, you serve a purpose here. You are an absolutely
classic case, to be used as a reference point for discussion.
You spell it all out clearly!   Whenever I need an example of the man
near the extreme end of the scale, you are that example.

Thanks recoverer, for this wonderful NDE that I somehow missed.
It clarified some areas that I needed. I especially liked the
description of meeting all our previous lives, and blending all the
information together. Also described is the greatly enhanced
thinking process that I had read of, but not seen many examples of.
That was something I had been told of by an adept named Pierre. He
said that I might someday reach that, but it seems to be still a
long, long way off.

Also, the description of the love force is the best description I
have yet read. This is where the idea of a universe with a basic
operating principle of love comes from. I had been needing to
juxtaposition this against my view of the physical mechanical
universe as random, pitiless and indifferent. This is that huge
difference between this plane and the higher planes.

I still say that the physical universe (that chumly is so unhappy
with, incidentally) could not have come from the same source as the
higher levels, which are very different. This NDE shows that
difference more clearly, two entirely different sectors that operate
on entirely different principles.

I also note the presence of authority, when everyone became aware
that a decision had been made on high, that he was to return to
Earth. (actually he had to make this decision).
This is what has become the nearest thing to a concept of
God as I can get. That is, if there really is a God, that is him,
causing these decisions, or as near as I could get. But this is
almost unrelated to the natural disasters and diseases of Earth, a
totally different world running on different principles. This
difference is what puts believers in juxtaposition with atheists,
and puts love in juxtaposition with indifference.

Hey Chum,

You once confessed that you used to be a goodie-two-shoes "spiritual" soul.  In other words, you've changed.   What makes you think you won't change again, perhaps several times before and after death?  For example, consider this vision of the future B-man: you are a senile, incontinent octogenarian in a nursing home singing "Jesus Loves Me" to your smiling nursing aide, a sweet Puerto Rican gal named Maria who keeps responding, "That's OK, honey, just take your medication."     You vaguely recall that Sunday School song from yoiur youth, but can't clearly sort out your later rebellion against Christianity.   What will happen to your brash defiance be if you enter the afterlife that way? 

Your in the sweet incense of the prayers of the saints,
Don
*****************
So... inanity is to be my future, then..?
An ETERNITY of being an inane Cream-of-Wheat dribbler
in a nursing home, or the equivalent thereof? (That IS what
Yahwist "heaven" is all about, after all... becoming a stripped
down, mindless, sub-human retarded entity!!!)
Lusting for oblivion,

B-man

Chumley:

You might like Ron Krueger's near death experience. If things work out like he says, are you certain that you want your existence ended. Saints preserve us! What would we do without Chumley?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22near+death+experience%22+%22ron+k%22&fr=yfp-...


I posted the yahoo page because the pages with his experience won't post above.
*****************
Sounds like Hell to me, recoverer.
Why is this fate, something to look forward to?
HUMILITY, as a "wonderful" thing? Humility is
TORTURE!!! (I oughtta know...)
To never know what it is like to be top dog? A
communistic place where I will have to LOVE the worst
ENEMY I ever had on Earth, as much as I do my father?
(Will I be forced to give my enemy blowjobs as a token
of my "humility", I wonder..?)
To become like the "Borg" on "Star Trek"? No thanks,
you can have my piece of THAT s**t-pie. Give
me oblivion instead!!!

B-man

B-dawg wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 5:49am:



Well, Chum, you said you HATE reality. Assuming that is actually TRUE, which I doubt......this wouldn't BE reality....because it would be your REWARD for reality....

ha ha....you make me shiver with delicious chills of real laughter, which is why I DO like this reality!

blink

You're welcome Boris.


Chumley:

Everybody wants to live according to love and humility. Everybody wants to live according to the divine plan. Nobody wants to have eternal enemies. Each person can find that what I say is true inwardly. Something has taken place in your life that has caused you to become unaware of this inner knowing. This is why you feel angry about things. We become angry when we lose track of the love, peace and happiness that we inwardly yearn for. We yearn for it because on some level we know about it. YOU'RE NOT AN EXCEPTION DESPITE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

B-man,

Consider the consensus of astral explorers and NDEs about one of the "nearest" astral layers to the earth variously known as Sheol, Focus 24, etc.   This layer is inhabited not only by earthbound spirits and lost balls in the tall weeds, but also by spirits who, frankly, seem insane.   Now consider all those defiant elderly souls who have no interest in God, Jesus, or progress towards PUL.  A good percentage of these die in pathetic senility.   Their major pleasure is a good bowel movement and their greatly eroded memory is clearest about their youth.   B-man, there is a good chance that this will eventually be your fate.    And since you were so "spiritual" and goodie-two-shoes in your younger years, that is the phase that your memory will preserve.    

Now, B-man, ask yourself why the afterlife "system" leaves these pathetic souls to their insane ravings and lost confusion.   Perhaps, they lacked the noble core desires that might allow them to be retrieved and made sane to pursue their intense and loving goals.  Think about it, B-man.   These guys wanted and expected extinction like you, but instead they get stuck in drooling insanity--like our most incoherent dreams that make no sense.  These insane souls, too, congregate on the basis of like attracts like, B-man.  If I were you, I'd actually read a book on the afterlife--any book--and get yourself some core desires that might  get you out of this mess.

Don

The way i see it, any pain/suffering only lasts until i die.

Until that point, i live as comfortably as i can. I try to find the ins and outs of this game we call life.

When you 'know' that all pain/suffering is for a limited time only, it becomes far more bearable.

Just think when you die, you wont be human anymore, you will be something else, you will never feel tired/bored/alone/pain...

Death is the prize for completing life, so stick it out chum.

Augoeideian wrote:

"It is beyond the senses, it is elusive and at the same time all encompassing, while we here it feels like the melody of a song you can't quite remember, it comes from within and overflows without.  It simply just is because it is."


I like that Augoeideian.

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

The way i see it, any pain/suffering only lasts until i die.

Until that point, i live as comfortably as i can. I try to find the ins and outs of this game we call life.

When you 'know' that all pain/suffering is for a limited time only, it becomes far more bearable.

Just think when you die, you wont be human anymore, you will be something else, you will never feel tired/bored/alone/pain...

Death is the prize for completing life, so stick it out chum.
*****************
Not to fear, Spit... I'm here for the duration (or at least until I
get some horribly painful terminal cancer or something, in which
case I'll push the "off" button methinks. (Suffering with no reward
ain't my thing.)
After all, I wouldn't have quit smoking (one month now and going
strong!) if I didn't plan on sticking it out as you say. (And who
knows, a cryogenic suspension maybe even...)

B-man

B-man:

You are guilty of the same bias as many Fundamentalists.   That is, you judge alt challenging perspectives in terms of their worst examplars and refuse to seek out spiritualities at their best with their accompanying awesome verifications.   So I challenge you once again to become an honest seeker.

[B-man:] "I'd rather stick my you-know-what into a meat grinder and
hit "puree" than become a churchy, preachy, suit-and-tie
get-a-life faithhead."
_________________

Many churches disdain all forms of stuffiness, and both the pastor and the people "dress down" to enhance the comfort of outsiders.

[B-man:] "I suppose you'd say it's a noble thing to pony up my hard-earned cash to waste on maintaining Mr. Pulpit Lizard's lifestyle when his collection
plate gets passes around? Parasitic bastard...)"
_________________________________________

No, I'd say just the opposite!   Find a small, intimate caring chiurch that pays its pastor a modest salary and raises funds primarily to meet the concrete needs of the poor and the oppressed.  True love requires a loving community to pool their resources and identify practical needs that social agencies overlook.  In many mega-churches, suffering members are often overlooked in the crowd and even die in oblivion.  In a loving small church, everyone is treated as family.   Hospitalized members are visited by the laity as well as by the pastor.   Corporate prayer time is an occasion in which troubled souls pour out their hearts and receive both passionate prayer and practical follow-up to meet their needs.   I know this by direct experience as a pastor.

What I chiefly lament is that mega-churches are growing at the expense of small, more initimate and deeply spiritual small churches.   True, big churches have more money and a larger talent pool.   But Christian spirituality flourishes only when each member has the chance to make a practical difference on a regular basis.  Small churches respect everyone's spiritual gifts and graces.

[B-man:] "Sorry, but I'm not sacrificing what I DO have -THIS life - in order to pursue rewards which have BLIND FAITH, as their only evidence."
_________________________________________________


You forget that the Gospels can be confidently connected with eyewitnes testimony.   More importantly, Gospel miracles find corrobration in modern miracles that change skeptical lives.  I have often both experienced such miracles and documented the miracles experienced by others on this site.   If you imagine that Christianity is based on BLIND FAITH, you just need to get out more and take new pictures.  But start by opening your mind to some sort of spiritual quest, even a non-Christian quest.   Why not begin by reading a book by a New Ager rather than a Christian?   In my view, the best example of this is David Fontana's "Is There an Afterlife?  A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence."   No role for Jesus there, but his book deeply inspired my faith.

Don