The church and bible are good for many things!

Producing mass fear throughout humanity, inclining them to conform to the system being doctrinated.

Helping corrupt leaders invent reasons for war, destruction, and manslaughter.

Of course, there are the good sides of it as well.

Helping people to find spirituality in their lives.

Giving them insights and curiosity to explore the afterlife for themselves, hopefully releaving them of confining religious dogma associated with their religion.

Hi OOBD and Chumley The bible has never made me feel afraid,it has always given me a sense of hope and love,because it tells of our beloved God and his beloved son Jesus.

I go every Thursday to a bible study class,and when im in that room with the others that are there ,i can feel so much love radiating in that room.
You both only seem to talk about the bad things that you say God did in the bible,but you never seem to want to talk about the good things God or Jesus did in the bible, seems like your not interested in the good things,like you both enjoy badmouthing God and Jesus,why dont you both have a day off and talk about the good things for a change of our dear Lord and his beloved son.

Love and God Bless            Love Juditha

[B-man"] "O.K., fine! What need is there for the Church... or churchmen -
OR the Bible?"
_____________

Like many posters on this site, most people are spiritually illiterate.   When many New Agers perform their bogus and unverifiable rertrievals, they don't seem to be motivated by the virtue of compassion.
*****************
-Well, churches and churchmen are after MONEY, which I haven't  seen
our resident "New Agers"asking me for, yet. (Do NOT tell me that
TITHING is not the BIGGEST scam ever...)
BTW, churchmen are spiritually illiterate too, as a general rule. (Even
more so, as they are sponging off their flocks for their livelihood
and RATIONALIZING it as "spiritual guidance"...)
_________________

[B-man:] "Why not simply dispense with all this stuff, and take Dude's "attitude of acknowledgement" toward Jesus?"
_______________________________

Dude's flippant reaction to his divine overture will likely ensure that he will not receive another.  Jesus gave Dude a choice and Dude chose to remain immersed in New Age manure rather than explore the meaning of his experience.  He actually believes that it is feasible to sense an encounter with Jesus with no concern to learn more about Jesus and His teaching from the eyewitnesses who followed Him and experienced His resuurrection.
*****************
-Ah,yes... we're supposed to believe that Jesus' REANIMATED CORPSE was lurching around Jerusalem, a'la "Dawn of the Dead." I forgot about that. We're supposed to take it LITERALLY, just like Tertullian advised (never mind that Tertullian was a sick, SICK man..!)
BTW, Dude's beliefs are manure? I guess that means that Hernando Cortez, Francisco Pizarro, and the priests who burned all the Mayan codices (and therefore DESTROYED who knows how much scientific knowledge about tropical plant properties, ect.) were NOT holders of "manure" beliefs. O.K. - whatever you say, chief!
Oh, and is Dude going to J.D. Howe's version of "Hell" now, for "rejecting Jesus' overture?" If Jesus wanted Dude to adopt 4th-century Council-Of-Nicea orthodox beliefs, why didn't he TELL Dude that???????
(Fess up, Don... that's what you REALLY believe in, isn't it? You're a barbaric a-hole at heart, you just don't have the guts to admit it.)



[B-man:] "What good is the Church, or churchmen, or their doctrines?"
__________________________________________________

The short answer is that the church is a reliable means of salvation, though not exclusively so.  The church is a major source of good and decency in the world.  For example, one reason for the rising tide of anti-Semitism in Europe is the decline of the Christian faith there. Evangelicals were responsible for abolishing slavery in the British Empire and were a major force behind the rise of compassionate social consciousness in Britain (the abolition of cruel child labor laws, etc.).
*****************
-That's nice.
Wanna talk anti-Semitism in Europe? How about Germany back in the 1500's, or Spain after 1492? Those days weren't exactly the heyday of atheism...
Why did it take the churches 1800 years to start abolishing slavery, protecting children, ect.? Maybe it had something to do with the influence of the ENLIGHTENMENT (a development you no doubt attribute to Old Nick, that tricky old cuss..!) I'll tell you why... because before that, the Church was too busy with burning "witches" and heretics, and launching "crusades to the Holy Land." (Oh, and accumulating wealth by any which way they could, inventing some of history's best scams along the way - ever heard of the sale of indulgences?)
_________________

At the local church level, small churches throughout America maintain food banks for the poor, organize and serve in soup kitchens, hold fund raisers for people afflicted with catastrophic medical emergencies, aggressively track down the lonely and helpless and provide them loving support, maintain huge missionary budgets to help the poor in Third World countries.  And just look at the major effort of Rick Warren's church to fight AIDs in AFrican countries or look at Mother Teresa's organization that feeds houdreds of thousands of the poorest of the poor in India.  In my experience, there is no comparsion between the compassion expressed by tha average local church and the narcissism expressed by the church's narcissistic New Age critics.
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-Never mind that churches also foster mental illness via threats of "fiery Hell for not kissing a$$ properly" - influencing unstable people like Andrea Yates to drown her babies (ever heard of a "New Ager" pulling a stunt like that?) and encourage their followers to gun down doctors and blow up medical clinics.
Why aren't the churches clamoring in the streets to bring home our troops right now? Most of 'em "support the troops" as in "Go get 'em, tiger" but not much else, so far as I've seen.
(BTW, funny you should mention Mother Theresa. Google "Christopher Hitchens + Mother Theresa" and you'll find out how lepers were basically left to rot in her facilities, while she herself jet-setted the world to get the finest medical care for HERSELF that money could buy... and that's just for STARTERS..!)
Besides... you're the KING of narcissism around here, Don. Look at some
of your own posts, and be darn careful you're not the pot calling the kettle black!!!
___________________

New Agers don't seem to realize that PUL requires the cooperative efforts of comminities united for common noble purposes.  By contrast, how much good is accmplished by all the mental masturbation peformed on this site?
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-How much good is accomplished in your average church?
Oh sure... you'll get LOTS of "love" there, IF you toe the line.
But watch what happens when you ask too many QUESTIONS...
Sort of like Amway. (Is it any coincidence that Amway expects
its top distributors, to be evangelical Christians? I think not!)
Beyond the obvious benefits of being in an "old boys
network" and communal sharing infrastructure, which you
can also find in some college fraternities... "where's the
beef?" (as the old lady used to ask at Wendy's...)
On the other hand... look at the folks here, how they deal
with a guy like ME. (In your average church, or Christian website,
I'd have been out on my ear a long time ago... or at least a social pariah!
Says something, maybe..?)
____________________

[B-man:] "And what value are they, if the "vicarious atonement" theory is not true, or necessary to believe in?"
____________________

I believe the vicarious atonement threory, but its practical implications are often misunderstood.  Many Christians profess faith in the Gospel of grace, but then fail to grasp the meaning of a grace-based life.   Grace means "unmerited favor."  Insignificant creatures like us can do nothing to "earn" the favor of the Creator of the universe.  So we are "saved by grace through faith, not by works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9)."  The meaning of the cross is that God does not assess me in terms of my accumulation of good works, but in terms of how my behavior reveals the spiritual person I might become by His grace and with His guidance.  On the other hand, one cannot be "saved" by grace without any works (James 2:14, 24). How, then, can Ephesians be reconciled with James?  The only proper response to grace is a life that strives to express gratitude (see e. g. 1 Thessalonians 5:18; 1 Timothy 2:1; Ephesians 5:20).   Practically speaking, this means I relate to you not out of a sense of duty, but out of a sense of privilege.   As a motivation, duty can easily connote a sense of burden.  A grace-based life does not allow me to collect applause in my mind for putting up with you.  From the Gospel's perspective, "good works" don't merit anything; rather they are my way of making my gratitude real.   It is not enough to express my gratitude in words or thoughts; I must make my gratitude real by the way I serve God and treat others.  Jesus taught:

"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you (Luke 7:29-30)." 

I must strive to love my enemy not to shame him, but to make my gratitude real for the fact that God will accept me just the way I am if I accept my enemy just the way he is.  God has no absotute standard of justice; rather, He judges me by the standard I use to judge others (Matthew 7:2).  To the degree that I nurse a grudge against you and refuse to forgive you for what you did to me, God won't forgive me (Matthew 6:14-15).

Ultimately, though, salvation is a mystery and only God is the final Judge.  Christians must let God determine which non-Christians do and do not adequately succeed in living such a grace-based life and what postmortem remedial options are avaibable for those who fall short and are separated from God on the basis of like attracts like. 

Don
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-O.K., you old know-it-all, you...
Give me SCIENTIFIC PROOF that your old book, is true.
(Preferably in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.) Otherwise,
I'll have to assume that your arguments are no less based
on emotion, than Dude's "New Age Manure" is. (Perhaps even
MORE so, as Dude at least BELIEVES he has direct experience
of what he believes in. You DON'T, your beliefs are based on
BLIND FAITH. While we're at it, Don... I've got some beachside
property here in Missoula, right on the ocean. Better hurry
up and buy some, while I'm selling low!)
BTW, if we're such "insignificant creatures", then why does
"God" care what we do, or don't do? We must be pretty
important little beasties, then. Important enough to take
responsibility for our OWN salvation, even - AND to
define for ourselves, just WHAT "salvation" is..!

Keep on arguing your point! I like to rip apart your arguments,
it helps keep my mind off of smoking...
Cheers,

B-man

Don,

I am tired of your attacks against this site, as they are just plain wrong.  Here, as you have found, there is a healthy love and respect for christianity and Jesus.  Even Dude, who indulged his youthful quesitoning into the veracity of claims about the historical Jesus came around.  Many senior members of this board would support me in saying they respect and love the concept of Jesus,  even if some call him "the Christ consciousness, or Yeshua (Justin).  This applies even if some consider themselves buddhists or New Agers. 

You feel that if some nincompoop attacks Mother Teresa, it is a sign that the entire board is bigoted?  Rubbish.  I'm Jewish, and have supported many concepts of JC's teachings on this forum.  Many others have chimed in as well. 

There is a small group here who is anti-religion, and christianity bashers.  So what?  They probably will turn on an anti-Judaism button next.  Most find these comments to be vile, and have little to nothing to do with the afterlife.  You assume that this vocal minority raising ugly comments here and there stands for the entire 2000+membership of the forum.  How dare you!  There is no tacit condoning of hatefu speech here - problem is just that the forum modifiers let the discussions go free form rather than censor everything.  Ok.  We are all big boys and girls.

Don, you have a keen intellect and a lot to share - why not do so without painting this whole forum with a negative brush?  You are probably more at home on this forum than any other on the web.  Leave the ghetto talk behind, and stay as part of a family of seekers here.

Matthew

 Don, i have to agree with Matthew on this.   I'm one of the percentage on this site, who doesn't emotionally dislike you at all, but you do come off at times as way too heavy handed.   I'm not really one to speak on this, since at one point i became rather personally negative to others here for a time (in my defense, i was very emotinally involved at the time).

 But please be aware that when you use such language and in such a manner, it doesn't tend to help to enlighten people, but rather tends to put others on the defensive.   If someone is on the defensive, then they will not be receptive to the truth you are trying to convey.   If you are here to truly to help others, then think of what's ultimatley more constructive and not so much just venting ones own spleen.

 You can only really consistently reach people through their hearts (this goes for most people, most of the time) and not so much through their minds or intellects though that occasionally happens as well.   We're all at the end of the day, a lot more emotionally based than we realize, including scientists, Biblical scholars, etc.

 You have a very strong left brain, and a balance more to that polarity, and so you try to reach people through that more so, its an automatic tendency, but balance it with some more feminine energy and i think you will find others overall more receptive to your messages and your sometimes very astute observations.  If you and Blink could somehow merge consciousnesses and energies, what a wonderous, wise, and enlightened being and state of consciousness would show forth!  

 Feminine energy is compassionate, sensitive, gentle, quiet, it listens more instead of speaks, all of which i know you do have in you, but just try to bring in a greater balance like the Teacher of teachers did.   The more you can do this, the more effective and universally constructive both your messages and impact on others will be.  

Ah So, I've tried bieng polite and sensitive here and it doesn't work.  People's belief systems have been changed from new quests arising from my blunt approach.  I may just leave again and come back a month or so later with a gentle approach to prove my point.  I enjoy hard-htting debate and would remain gentle were it not for all the vicious bigotry and ad hominen attacks that mask a lack of capacity here for the hard work of criitical hhinking.


Don

AhSo......

Were you suggesting that Don and I......hmmmmn.......interesting thought.......

Oh, where was I..... I think I see what you mean. Balance the masculine and feminine energy, yes.  

I think that Dude did mention a few positive things in his reply to Chum's original question....and I doubt that Jesus is mad at him.

I also think Don made some excellent points in his rebuttals.  This topic seems far from completely discussed here yet.

Sometimes it feels like we are in a playground, doesn't it?

"You're not the boss of me!"

"No, YOU'RE not the boss of ME!"

But I always did love swinging high and low on the giant swingset and spinning on the merry-go-round anyway....

I think it was always the hot metal slide that burned my legs.  But I kept climbing up that thing anyway....

Playgrounds used to be dangerous places when I was a kid.  I guess they can still be that way sometimes, but kids gotta play.  They just do.

love, blink