Greetings Juditha,

This does *not* mean that a soul rots in hell forever for ignoring the Holy Spirit.
That would be ridiculous because with all the noise and distractions in the world,
it's hard to hear anything subtle.
It must mean that we cannot get out of facing some sort of consequence. And
that's good news because it infers that anything else  can  be forgiven.

So even though at first reading, I started to hear the old fire and brimstone, it's full of good promise when read with love.

Thanks Juditha, I didn't remember it.

Love, Bets

Quote:


Exactly, nice post!

I believe that God and Christ are wise enough to understand why people make mistakes, and feel much joy and love when a person realizes his or her error. If you were a parent and one of your children that you love very much became confused and falsely spoke against you, wouldn't you forgive he or she if he or she discovered his or her error and tried to make amends?  What good would it do anybody to have he or she spend all of eternity in hell, if he or she is willing to admit his or her error and once again love and revere you?

If there is one thing God and Jesus don't have it's ego problems, which is the sort of thing that causes people to be unforgiving.

Why the verse states what it states I don't know. There must be an explanation.

Dude and Juditha.

The two earliest interpretations of the unpardonlable sin against the Holy Spirit define it as thechronic refusal to heed to inner voice of the prophetic Spirit (so the Teaching of the 12 Apostles and Irenaeus).  What this means in modern terms is this: if we harden ourselves to divine overtures, we will eventually become tone deaf to such overtures and they will cease to be part of our experience.   Instead, we will subject ourselves to a godless postmortem ordeal that mirrors our own choices and is based on the principle that like attracts like.   Divine forgiveness means the removal of self-imposed barriers to experiencing God's grace and reconciliation.   There is no room in this process of reconcilation for continued nursing og  guilt fieelings. 

I love Martin Luther's two-word motto that succinctly expresses the appropriate attitude: "Sin boldly!"  In other words, being frail humans, we cannot escape our learning curve in which we will inevitably repeatedly miss the mark.   So we have a choice.   We can grovel in self-loathing or we can sin with gusto, and then catch ourselves in our flaws, cheerfully embrace God's pardon, and press on in a guilt-free determination to make progress towards PUL with God's help.  Remember, Jesus' dictum, "Love your neighbor as yourself," is bad advice for a masochist.  It presupposes a robust self-image.  God's only interest in our sinful past and current frailties is this: how He can transform our weaknesses into spiritual strengths (2 Corinthians 12:8-10).   God does not view us in terms of our accumulation of demerits, but in terms of the magnificent creatures we might yet become by His grace.  In simple terms, Jesus' atoning death means this: God buries our sins in the sea of His forgetfulness and puts up a sign that reads, "No fishing!"   When we grovel in guilt, we are fishing in a No Fishing zone and are implying that Jesus falied to accomplish His mission.  In other words, we are insulting the grace of God.   

The danger of the way Dude expresses his piosition is this: it blurs the line between inordinate oride and healthy self-esteem and the line between loving humilty and both humiliation and a poor self-image.   Jeus warns of the thin line between true spirituality and counterfeit spirituality.

Don

Hi This is the one sin that cannot be forgiven.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
In Matthew 12:22-32; Mark 3:22-30; Luke 12:10 Jesus refers to a sin against the Holy Spirit called blasphemy.  Jesus says it is one sin that can never be forgiven.  There is some disagreement of what this sin is.  Augustine of Hippo taught that this blasphemy is the rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life.  If you continue to the very end to reject the Holy Spirit as it works in your life, you have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.  Rejecting the voice of the Holy Spirit is rejecting the offer of peace with God.
*****************
Looks like I'm in Gonzo City, then...

B-man

Hi Chumley I feel im getting some words for you here from spirit and im going to write what is given to me at this moment.

Here it is.    God knows of your silent pain,there is much for you to do as you travel your pathway of life ,which at the moment has seen many obstacles,but you will eventually come through the trees and out into the sunshine ,there is a vast crossroads forming around you at the moment of your earth life,but this consists of two things being that one is a baron feild but you will find the true path you are to walk along,time will put everything within its true place,we have heard and seen your words many times and we have seen that these words of many are just words of the war you are fighting inside yourself many times,God loves you as he loves all his children and your freewill was given from God ,for you to learn from many accounts in your life as it is and as it is to come so you are progressing as a spirit of Gods love,you will come towards the light of all knowledge one day and you will find your many answers to many of the questions you hold inside your soul.

Gods light love and blessings on you,for the long and winding pathway you must walk.

I have just wrote this word for word what i have just received from spirit,as i must write excactly what i receive.

Love and God bless you chumley     Love Juditha

Well Chumley, looks like you and me are going to get two prime seats right up close to the
furnace concert...Is this website now about christian interpretation of biblical passages and
such like? I thought this site was about the Astral planes and rescue/retrieval work. I was
always taught if you have a toothache you go and see the dentist, not the manager of the
local hardware store. Perhaps some of the posters don't know that there are many christian
forums, chat lines, websites, local churches, etc, etc, where they can get their questions
answers. ....But I keep forgetting that these people are the ones who go to a catholic mass
hoping to hear the local islamic Mufti give a sermon on the benefits of being an orthodox jew.
...Darth. May both sides of the force be with you...ps. There is always Don(Beserk) who will
always tell you that his interpretations of biblical script are the one and only true meanings
in that infamous book....You know, when jesus was crucified, he was really playing poker with
his diciples, and when Paul talks about his vision on the road to Damascus, it was only
his irritable bowel syndrome playing up.

 

Hi THIS IS SOMEONES OWN EXPERIENCE ,HES CALLED JUSTIN,I GOT THIS
OFF THE NET.

Last month, I too thought I committed the "unpardonable sin," the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Last week after giving in to a sexual temptation, I was mad, not at myself, but at the Holy Spirit for allowing it to happen. I now it is naive to have blamed Him. When I realized what I had done, I sunk further into depression because I thought I blew my salvation and blasphemed the Holy Ghost. I was so horribly worried about it, you can imagine.

So I emailed a bunch of people in different ministries, read a bunch of people's websites on this, all of them saying I probably didn't blaspheme the Holy Ghost because I felt bad about it. I hated the "probably" and I couldn't open the Bible to read because it was just too painful to read; my carnal mind condemned me repeatably. I went outside and I cried, tears in eyes, to the Holy Ghost, repenting and remembering all the good that He had done in my life. I said something to the effect of, "you've changed me so much, now you're gone..." But then I heard a still, soft voice whisper, "I am still here..." I knew it was Him. Then I asked Him to show me what blasphemy is and He took me through Scripture:

I saw this in Matthew 12: "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." But then I lowered my eyes to this verse: "Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." Even though I felt, at the time that I supposedly "blasphemed" the Holy Ghost, anger against Him, I knew as I read that verse that He revealed to me that God knew my heart. He knew it better than I ever did and ever will. Then the Holy Ghost led me to this Scripture: "God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us" (Acts 15:8). We learn from this Scripture that God knows the heart, or spirit of man, better than anyone including yourself--this means that if you at one time felt anger against the Holy Ghost and maybe said anything mean to Him, even something horrible, Jesus's Blood will atone for you because, even though you thought you meant it, you really didn't. Besides, you said it in your carnal mind, which controls the realm of emotions, intellect, etc. The Bible says that the carnal mind is ALWAYS emnity against God! Emnity! I also learned that anyone who loves God is justified from ALL THINGS (Acts 13:39)! Furthermore look at these two wonderful Scriptures: "For if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Romans 10:9-10).

Now look at this: "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed" (Romans 2:5). And then look at this: "The blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven...[for] out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks [not in this age nor in the age to come]" (Matthew 12:31-34). Are you catching the vibe, here? When Jesus says "speaketh a word" He doesn't mean it literally. He means that whoever has such an unrepentant, hardened heart, capable of saying "You have satan in You" and then never ever being convicted that he did any wrong in saying so, whether due to unbelief or even if that person knows that Jesus is God (like the Pharisees), then that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Ghost led me also to a site called Tektonics.org, and I read this article. Don't you see? The Holy Spirit was the One who first convicted you of the sin if you yelled at/cursed/thought a bad thought again Him! But the fact that you still run around thinking you've blasphemed Him is no more He but demonic oppression. Look, "The Lord [does not want] anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)!

One last thing. For anyone who is scared of this Scripture: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" (Hebrews 6:4-6), the word for fall away in Greek is "parapipto" which means apostasy or renunciation of one's faith. This doesn't mean backsliding. It also doesn't mean "I HATE YOU GOD, I DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU!" and then coming back to faith with Him within a year or two. It means that after renouncing their faith, their hearts became so hardened and set against the Gospel, they simply CANNOT be restored to repentance! God has died for their sins, and they once believed and knew God personally, walked with Him and everything, and then decided to go against Him, just like satan and the fallen angels! They can't repent! It's too late for them! Jesus only died once for people's sins! He can't go back and die again for those of whom committed the ultimate blasphemy of the Holy Ghost--unrepentant hardness of heart and leaving Him and rising against Him--that would be disgraceful to God!

So enough with your carnal minds thinking you've blasphemed the Holy Spirit. It's great news: YOU DIDN'T! The Holy Ghost leads me and is with me all the time! I'm so happy and blessed that I didn't commit the unpardonable sin! Read this Scripture here, "for [the Lord] is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35). Now if the Lord is kind to sinful and unthankful people, He'll certainly be kind to you who want to get right with Him! Pray this prayer:

Dear God, I love You so much with all my heart and soul. I've been scared and horrified, worrying whether or not I committed the blasphemy against the precious Holy Ghost. I am horribly sorry for [whatever I did.] I may have felt it at the time, or maybe it was just an accidental thought, but I know that you know my heart better than I know mine. I will no longer fear demonic words that I committed the unpardonable sin. I did not blaspheme the Holy Spirit in my heart at all. I may have said some evil with my tongue, or with my brain, but not with my heart! I love You more than anything, and I want to know the Holy Ghost and be His best friend! Thank You for forgiving me, for you are the most merciful in all existance. Thank You so much, dear Father, in Jesus's Name. Amen.

Hallelujah! You're back!

- Justin

I have researched on this subject for a long period of time.. Since, I worried for the longest time about the unforgiveable sin.. I have gone through so much research on this subject... So, finally I stumbled upon this remarkable article.. It rings with a lot of truth.. PLEASE READ!

THERE IS NO UNPARDONABLE SIN!

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Mat. 12:31-32).

I am glad that Jesus said that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men. I believe that is true. ALL manner. There is no kind of sin, which because of its kind, or manner, is unpardonable. The enemies of the truth of the ultimate salvation of all men have relied on this dissertation about the unpardonable sin given by our Lord, as their outstanding bulwark of defense against those who affirm that Christ is indeed the Saviour of all men, the Saviour of the world.

Invariably, when the certainty of eternal torment is discussed and doubted, the sin against the Holy Ghost is brought forward as an impregnable defense against forgiveness hereafter for at least one sin. Few know how to reply. Here is what the Lord said: "But whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

On the surface it seems conclusive to the unthinking; and it has equally seemed so to learned theologians who have been trained in the channels of orthodox thinking. Yet, as a matter of fact, these words of our Lord are among the strongest collateral evidence that can be produced in support of the truth of the reconciliation of all men to God. Hearken! A sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in this "world," nor in the "world" to come.

While the King James version states that the sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come, that is not quite the meaning of the Greek. The Greek word here translated "world" is AION. This word AION has been translated into fifteen different English words and phrases, many of which convey the wrong meaning entirely. The simple meaning of AION is "age." An AION is "an age." Two AION(S) are two "ages." A thousand AION(S) are a thousand "ages."

Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it. In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come." In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions)." In Eph. 2:2 we find, "you walked according to the course (aion) of this world." In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)." In Hebrews 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the word of God." In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32, I Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)." Twice we find "this present world (aion)." In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)." In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)." In II Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)." In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)." In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)."

How much clearer and understandable it would be if the translators had used the correct word age instead of world! In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come." Certainly this present age is an evil age, and the rulers of the darkness of this age are evil. Clearly God framed the ages, and there are not only "this age" and "the age to come," but there are also "the ages to come" (Eph. 2:7).

Any thinking person should plainly see that if you translate a word which means an age by the word world, you immediately get the wrong idea. It is incorrect and brings nothing but confusion. There is a great deal of difference between the expression, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come," and the expression, "It shall not be forgiven him in this age, nor in the age to come." The translation in Mat. 12:32 of "world" instead of "age," has been the source of an altogether erroneous concept. This "world" and the "world to come" has become so indelibly impressed on the Christian mind as meaning "this life and eternity," that it is next to impossible quickly to reverse the trend of belief and direct it into sound thinking. It makes all the difference in the world when one understands that our Lord was not contrasting "this world" with that "great eternity out there somewhere," but merely pointing to two ages: this age and the age to come.

Now let me quote this passage from several well-known, highly respected and widely-accepted Bible translations.

The Amplified Bible compromises the Greek AION, using both world and age to translate. "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but who ever speaks against the Spirit, the Holy One, will not be forgiven, either in this world and age or in the world and age to come."

Young's Literal translation says, "Whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming."

Wuest translates, "Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the one about to come."

The Weymouth New Testament reads, "Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit shall obtain forgiveness neither in this age nor in the coming age."

The New International Version renders, "Anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) says, "Whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him either in this age, or the coming."

The Concordant New Testament reads, "Whoever may be saying aught against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending."

These words of our Lord, so far from proving that the sin against the Holy Spirit is "unpardonable," distinctly assert, - first, that ALL MANNER of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, - secondly, that some sins, those, namely, against the Son of man, can be forgiven in the present age, - and, thirdly, that other sins, against the Holy Ghost, cannot be forgiven either in the age when Jesus came to earth, nor in the age that would immediately follow; which last words clearly indicate that some sins not here forgiven may be forgiven in the next age. That is what the text plainly says. It says absolutely nothing about a sin that is "unpardonable" throughout endless ages to come!

We should not fail to note the wording of our Lord's pronouncement as given in Mk. 3:28-30. To overlook this would invite a charge that it was unanswerable.

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith so ever they shall blaspheme: but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

The correct original is "has not for the eon (age) forgiveness, but is in danger of eonian (age-during) by judgment," - thereby giving it quite a different meaning from the translation in the "Authorized."

My Greek-English Interlinear reads, "But whoever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment."

A free translation would be, "HE that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has not forgiveness to the age, but is held in and liable to the age-lasting process of judgment: because they said, He has an unclean spirit."

Amid the crowd of sins there stands out one in sad pre-eminence because it has not forgiveness "eis ton aiona," - for the age. Its forgiveness demands ages - two ages, to be exact - after which, obviously, there is forgiveness!

I Am Dude wrote on Mar 17^th, 2007 at 7:26pm:

Amen! lol

BTW I got that article from a Christian Universalism site..

Wow Don.  Did my statement bother you that much?

Let me explain myself.

Good and bad. They are illusions.  Proof:  What is good in the eyes of one is not neccessarily "good" in the eyes of another, and the same goes with "bad."  They are perceptual concepts that vary from person to person.  Therefore, it can be said that there really is no good and bad, they are just illusion.  

So if a bad deed is considered a sin, then the same principles apply.  A sin in one's eyes may be a good deed in the eyes of another.  It is all governed by one's perception, and since no two people have the same perception, there can be no real sins or good deeds.  They are illusions.

Lets take this a step farther.  We can realisticly say that everything, the whole universe, in a illusion.  Why?  Because it only exists in our minds, and in our brains.  What we are really seeing every day are not physical things, but energy vibrations.  These energy frequencies are converted by our brians to look, smell, feel, taste, and sound the way they do.  But they are not this way in reality, only in our minds.(This is all proven by science, namely quantum mechanics)  Although the world may be similar to all, it is not the same to all due to variations in perspective.  Everything we know of in the physical world is simply electrical signals being converted by our brains to give us senses.  In reality, everything is an illusion.  It is simply energy vibrations.  

So with this being said, I ask.. if things that seem physical are not even real, how could you possibly believe that a concept that varies with each different individual perspective, such as a Sin, is NOT an illusion??????

Dude,
You conveniently ducked the falsififiability principle and my illustrative analogy.  What is it about this prcnciple you don't understand?  Both your explanations completely miss the point.  (1) If "good and bad" are merely in the mind of the perceiver, then yoiu have no moral grounds for objecting to torture, since your assailant's motives might reflect his perception that as a non_Muslim, you dseerve to be tortured.   Criteria for afterlife porgrss such as progressive mastery of PUL would also be meaningless, For if such criteria existed, they would by definition serve as the basis for morality.

(2) Also, you misuse the term illusion.  Modern science embraces quantic mechanics, but does NOT claim the unverise is an illusion.  According to modern science, the "energy bibrations" are not all the same; indeed, their unique patterns determiin the perceived shape of physical reality.  By virtue of these correspondences, the universe of unseen energy patterns is far from illusory.

Don

I think you all have trouble accepting the fact that I AM RIGHT!!!!!!!

Can you honestly tell me that good and bad are objective concepts? 

Of course they aren't.

Like Don said, someone torchering me may think it is good or righteous, while I may think it is bad or evil.  Same action, different ideas of right and wrong, good and evil.

I do not deny the concepts of good and evil.  The concepts exist.  But they only exist in the minds of those percieving them, they only exist in the minds that believe they exist.  Therefore they are technically illusions. 

There are no polar opposites with infinite love and conciousness.  Everything is one. 

I am not saying a serial murder can do no wrong.  A serial murder can do wrong.. but the wrong is in the eyes of the beholder. The concepts right and wrong are subjective.  In his mind, perhaps he is doing right.  In the victims mind, perhaps he is doing wrong. 

Don, perhaps the criteria for afterlife progress is mastery of PUL and spiritual advancement.  But perhaps these too are all illusions held within our minds.  Perhaps the criteria for afterlife progress is simply returning to infinite consciousness, where right and wrong do not exist, where everything exists as one.

I do not misuse the term illusion.  An illusion is somthing that you percieve, but it is not really there.  The red chair I am sitting in is not really here.  I think it is because I can see its color, feel its texture, smell the piss on it from my cat, taste the piss on it from my cat, and hear it creak.  But it is simply energy vibrations that my brain is converting to a physical form.  In its true form, it is vibrations of energy.  If I were to "see" it in its true form, I would not see what I see right now.

Dude,

You are like the Fundamentalist who, when challenged to defend his biblical views, just continually quotes proof texts.   You are ducking all the issues and merely preaching your New Age DOCTRINE.  To pretend any rationality, you must be able to specify how you could discover your erroneous thinking, if in fact you were wrong.   Your dogmatic posturing implicitly insists that you are RIGHT, and no evidence could even theoretically dissuade you.   Thus, your position is as meaningless as the kook who persists in his claim to see a little green man eating toasted tofu sandwiches, despite the fact that no one else can see him.

Dude, your next two claims are self-contradictory:
[Dude to Matthew:] "Can you honestly tell me that good and bad are objective concepts?  Of course they aren't.  The concepts of good and evil...only exist in the minds that believe they exist.  Therefore they are technically illusions." 

[Dude:] "Don, perhaps the criteria for afterlife progress is mastery of PUL and spiritual advancement."

If PUL is one basis for afterlife progress, then "good and evil" are defined by PUL and its relative absence.  That means that "good and evil" help define how the universe works, and in that sense are objective realities and not all in the mind, as you suggest.  Part of that objective moral reality are all the principles that make objective the distinction between "pure" and "impure" love and between "conditional" and "unconditional" love as well as its opposite.  Otherwise, your use of the  3-word expression, "Pure Unconditional Love" is meaningless jibberish. 

[Dude:] "I do not misuse the term illusion.  An illusion is something that you percieve, but it is not really there." 

I'm afraid not.  Webster defines "illusion" as "an unreal, deceptive or misleading apperance or image."  There is nothing depeptive about reality.   We all know very well that most of an atom is space and that ultimately reality can be conceived in terms of energy waves.   But that reality is still objective if there is a correspondence between the atoms or type of energy waves ahd the objects we experience.

[Dude:] "There are no polar opposites with infinite love and conciousness.  Everything is one."

This New Age claim absurdly begs the question.  Once we postulate a Creator or universal consciousness, then even dualism postulates that all reality is ultimately One, since it derives from the One [Creator].  If there are no polar opposites, then there is no free will and PUL has no value.  The Creator (Universal Consciousness) alone exists and the ecistence of separate selves is an illusion.  But set aside your preaching for a moment and asnwer this question: if the Creator is omnipotent, why can't "He" (it) create self-contained units of consciousness that operate independently of "Him" (It)?   If units of consciousness are genuinely independent, they can create polar opposites like good and evil.  Now please stop ducking the falsifiablility criterion.

Don

Don's last two arguments are worth thinking about.  Dude, think of it this way; if there is truly no good or evil, no right or wrong, than there would not be any hells.  We hear that after a life review people often see the unloving/unkind moments in their lives, and then, may not feel worthy of heaven and PUL.  They thus therefore consign themselves to a hell.  We also hear that people who revel in masochism and hurting others are attracted to hells that indulge these loves.  The great realization by Bruce and others has been that we are here to learn about the expression of PUL.  The further we are away from PUL, the further we are away from God.  This sets up a necessary good/evil equivalent (as Don stated).  
Saying that there is no good or evil, right or wrong sets up a value judgement, in effect assigning equal value to ethical or unethical actions.  A mass murderer is said in this sad ideology to just be "exploring their dark side" in a neutral way.  I find this modern moral relativism to be offbase.

Don, your statement on how the notion of a unity of all things implies that there is no free will is falacious.  It is absolutely clear that if the greater reality is unity, the other perspective on the physical plane is polar opposites.   Both exist simultaneously.  Enlightenment implies the simultaneous appreciation of the unity and the dichotomy; both are real.  

What is my take on all this then?  I believe that there is a unity of all things, however not an equivalence of all actions.  Everything is not equal in terms of thought and action.  What Kyo on this board has called "cosmoethos," is a higher universal principle based in PUL.  As Don astutely stated, if PUL is the underlying force of the universe, then un-PUL vs. PUL sets up a necessary dichotomy for thought and action both here, in the physical and in heaven/hell.  If not, if there were truly no right/wrong, no good/evil, there woud be no PUL, no heaven and hell.  No reason to get up in the morning, to achieve anything.

What we find is that good and evil as preached by the fundies is flawed, but right or wrong action - ethical action based on the concept of PUL is real.  Those that glibly say that all notions of good/evil or right/wrong are illusory, and that all actions are equal, therefore are kidding themselves.  

Matthew

Hey Chum, I fully agree with your sentiments, have you considered becoming a comedian?? 

"Fun F*k Chung", "monkeyed with" 

Hey Alysia,

dittio re: Chumley, I just finished printing out his responce to If you were God for Mac and reading Blink's responce to Chum's reaction. Love that guy & his self portrait of his mooning us all .
Love hanging out with you all-just don't have much energy to respond.

Love, Jean

p.s. ordered R.S.'s today. J

DaBears..u continue to amaze me how young u r and such wisdom falls out of you, I'm not trying to flatter you but everything you said is true but I had to study many books for the same insight you already have. thank you sweetie. maybe I can leave town now.

well u may think you have a disorder, and u may have been diagnosed as that, but I am diagnosing you as an Indigo child who has an intention to have been born into this day and age of the shift in consciousness upon the planet now.
as you go along here, here's my advice: you are demonstrating your wisdom gained from your studies right now...hold tight to what you know and take care of yourself; you are numeral uno. I am honored to be in touch with you. be proud and never let anyone put you down.
and thank you! 

Hi I go to a mental health centre,but i know that God is beside me and he is my most best friend and he loves me for who i am and knows of my many inebitions i have about my self after being put down all my life,but im gradually getting there with Gods love and the courage i ask him for each day ,which he gives me.

OOBD how can you not know that your sitting on a chair,the chair is solid reality and also the scent of your cats urine is real,that is no illusion.Open your heart and God will enter your life and he unlike most in this world will never let you down,hes never let me down,God helped me to go on living and he still is helping me to go on living.God led me to the mental health centre as im now finding out there ,that i am good enough to walk on this earth plain and my life is getting better every day and God helped me to find that out.

Chumley you seem at war in yourself with yourself,ask God to show you the way and he will.

Love and God bless                Love Juditha

DocM wrote on Mar 18^th, 2007 at 5:18pm:

Okay, I see what you meant.. Sorry about that...

DaBears wrote on Mar 18^th, 2007 at 7:50pm:


maybe because all suffering stems from a heavy load of guilt and some just can't bear the guilt and so we call this hell. remember we are going from the premise that you have to forgive yourself your misdeeds in order to get out of hell. maybe this is so hard to do for some that they require lots of assistance and get locked into the guilt and it's like having tar stuck on your soul.
I have heard of rare instances where the realization of what has been done has caused so much suffering that this one would be recycled in painless manner, or unredeemable; perhaps because they enjoyed so much a playground of slaughter they were in...
theres two types of sin or error which cause guilt and suffering:
1) unintentional harm to life, from ignorance, or ignoring the love your neighbor concept:
2) base, primal selfish intentional harm, such as serial killers would perform. This would be construed as having the "intent." having the intent means they took a perverse pleasure out of harming life, whereas the other type of error or sin had no pleasure in their misdeeds and thought it was the right thing to do.

or you might say those in the intentional category, which you must admit are rare considering our large population, you could say these others knew what they were doing was wrong, yet went right ahead and did it. these would be cloistered upon death and when their sin or guilt was provided to them to hear the crys of those injured upon their own persons, they might not be able to face up to guilt and opt out, if they even have that choice. I don't know that they would have a choice if there was no mercy or compassion in their heart at all.

but it's supposed to be so rare, and I don't go into those hells for exploration purposes, as I never considered I needed to go take a look. the ones I retrieve who are criminals always have the spark of divinity in them and these are easy retrievals.
matter of fact I never met a criminal that I didn't like, some of them are like robin hoods in disguise. they think they are right, but we're not the judges except on this earth, we are the judge and jury, not on the inner planes..thats a higher order we can only conjecture on.   The guilt is in everyone of us though, to some degree, we may feel separated from our creator here, and this sets up automatically that we must have done something wrong to find ourselves in a flesh and blood body where we struggle and strive just to get back to god.  We can reach god consciousness here, a sense of no separation from god, or all that is, or our completed tasks done. we can, because we have our avatars and teachers who showed us that we can.

love to you, such an enquiring young man! my goodness, I love to see you here. alysia

LaffingRain wrote on Mar 18^th, 2007 at 8:29pm:

Thanks for your feedback! Yes, all we need to do in this life and the next is to forgive ourselves and move on... Because God never gives up on us..

DaBears wrote on Mar 19^th, 2007 at 12:05am:

If Hell is real and all things were made for God’s pleasure (Rev. 4:11), is it conceivable that God would derive pleasure from seeing those He created endlessly tortured? God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ez. 33:11).

If Hell is a real place of endless torment, and God didn’t want anyone to end up there, why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve and end the long terrible chain of misery that passed to their offspring before it began? After all, the Scriptures say that all died because of Adam. (Rom. 5:18)

If Hell is real, if God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

If Hell is real, if you had sufficient power would you not deliver all men from sin? If God would save all men, but cannot, is He infinite in power?

If Hell is real, and God can save all men, but will not, is He infinite in goodness and mercy?

If Hell is real, since God will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3 KJV), does that mean God's power is not strong enough to have His will fulfilled?

If Hell is real and Jesus teaches us to forgive seventy times seven and yet He Himself will never offer forgiveness to anyone after they die, does that not make Him a hypocrite?

If Hell is real and God's wrath abides upon billions of human beings forever, doesn't that violate the Scripture which says His anger will come to an end? (Isaiah 57:16-18)

If Hell is real and God only loves those who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)

If Hell is real, since some people receive many chances to "get saved," some receive only a few chances and billions have never even received one chance, does that make God a respecter of persons? (Acts 10:34, James 3:17). After all, billions of people have been born and died on this earth without a chance to ever hear the name of Jesus, the “only name under heaven by which men may be saved.”

If there is a Hell and all who have sinned are destined to go there (which is everyone) unless they figure out how to avoid it, does that not consign all aborted babies and non-Christian children to Hell? (While some denominations teach a so-called "age of accountability," it is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is just some people's way of trying to make God more humane than the Hell teaching makes Him out to be).

If Hell is real, does that mean that motherly love is more powerful and enduring than God's love? Do you know of normal parents who would endlessly torment most of their kids? Why do we believe our heavenly Father, who is millions of times more loving than all of us combined, could do such an evil, wicked thing?

If Hell is real, why does the human spirit writhe under the horror of wars and prison camps, torture chambers and dictators? How can we judge these things as wrong, if Hell is real? After all, Hell far eclipses these earthly torments which came from the most sinful and beastly part of humanity. We say God is grieved by man’s violence and disregard for life, and yet believe that He Himself enforces the same principles for all eternity!

Hell was never created by GOD! Hell is an illusion created by our subconscious minds! End of story.. Don't be blinded by dogmatic religion anymore.. You have a brain use it !

Also, great post DocM!

Matt and DsBears,

I never claimed that God creates the suffering and torture.  I merely pointed out the New Age presumption of claiming that the residents create their own hell.  I pointed out ways that this claim must be nuanced.   The bottom line is this: you are pontificating about a subject you can have no way of grasping.  And as I said, some channeled and astral sources plausibly insist that residents are incapable of creating the major features of the landscape they must all share.  Does God or the angels create it?  I don't know, but neither do you.  And as I mentioned, NDEs report the monitoring role of angelic presences undetected by the local reisdents. 

Don

Dude:

This is for you to decide. I had the dream, and I wrote what came to me. It's between you and Christ.



I Am Dude wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 8:27pm:

recoverer wrote on Mar 19^th, 2007 at 11:36am:

Outofbodydude, you don't believe in Jesus?? Why not? Just curious..

Yea fools.  Get off my back!!!   

haha! Dude, you are a treasure here whether u know it or not..I think u know it

listen, I have a complaint I never seen or felt JC. so hummph. unless...DP is JC in disguise..well he could be a close friend..travel buddies? fishing buddies? haha!

blasphemy?  not if we are all ONE!!!!!  or neighboring discs..neighboring planets? u are all invited for tea and crumphets if ever in my part of town. I don't care where you wandered in from...

ok the teapot is always warm on the stove Doc. love, alysia

Alysia:

You could ask Christ for a visit of his presence. I've experienced it on more than one occasion. Dude has experienced it. A couple of folks over at Linn's forum have experienced it. So if you're really interested, just ask. Perhaps you already have without thinking of it those terms.


LaffingRain wrote on Mar 19^th, 2007 at 11:05pm:

Albert said: You could ask Christ for a visit of his presence. I've experienced it on more than one occasion. Dude has experienced it. A couple of folks over at Linn's forum have experienced it. So if you're really interested, just ask. Perhaps you already have without thinking of it those terms. 
____

was just joking around Albert. but isn't it amazing we can ask for what we want around here?
sometimes it only takes a few weeks to get it, of thinking on it.
back when I was fooling with an ouiji board was when i met the Christ. that was when I was 18, but linear time is not real, so he is fresh as a daisy in my mind.

Hi aylsia I love crumpets and if im ever in your part of town ,i would love to come and have tea and crumpets with you,and if i never get to have tea with you on the earth plain,we will have celestial tea and celestial crumpets in the spirit world instead.

Love and God bless    Love Juditha

Juditha:

Does this mean that a person who has done so should just hang it up and do whatever they want, because there is no hope anyway?

Here's a prayer that I feel in my heart:
"Dear God, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit, thank you for being beings of infinite love and wisdom, and coming to my aid when I gave up my incorrect thoughts about you."


Quote:

Hi OOBD and Recoverer You have both got me wrong as i do not agree with everything these words are saying ,as i did not write them,i just put it on here just to see what you like me thought about it,i feel nothing but love in my heart but i dont think for one minute OOBD that you will go to hell as God even said ,if we do not forgive others then why should he forgive us and he gave us all freewill.I have never had unloving beleifs and never will have because whatever hurt has come my way from others ,i have always thought that God loves me no matter what and i have not done everything the right way in my lifetime as it is so far ,but then God knows i am not perfect.

Recoverer i do not think that at all as the only thing thats kept me going in my life is hope,God knows i did not write what i have put on here and he loves me and knows who and what i really am,no matter what the rest of the world thinks of me,I could not go through my life without the one person who truly loves me and thats God.

My love i send to both of you from my heart         Love and God bless   Juditha

Quote:


Juditha, not to hog tie the thread, but is a crumpet a hard sweet bisquit, small, or is it a salty tasting bisquit?
I would love to visit with you someday. but at least I have your picture and words!


Albert, I think the Ouiji story is my 3rd roadsign chapter, I couldn't cut that part out because I based my life on what happened.

hugs, my goodness what an interesting thread Juditha has made for us...

You go girl!  I mean boy.  I mean, "woof, woof, woof" - good one DaBears.


Doc

I always figured a crumpet was like an English muffin over here in the U.S.  But probably ours are not nearly as good.  Is it like an English muffin, Juditha?  You split it, and then the top is kind of porous with a lot of holes for the butter to melt into?

At my office we have tea in the afternoon at around 3 pm occasionally when we can remember to slow down our crazyness and sit down together.  It's very nice, and we sit and talk about anything at all....

We keep a wide variety of teas around along with our fancy coffee maker.  People even bring teas as gifts to us, because you never know who might drop in and sit down with us.

But we are crumpetless....... 

love, blink   

DocM wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 12:46am:

Thanks lol! 

Oh my god.  

What has this thread come to.  

We are talking about %#$@ing crumpets and butter.  

Jesus help us. 

I think the only unforgiveable sin is talking about crumpets and butter on an afterlife knowledge forum.

lol Alysia I am glad you picked up on my humor.

I don't want anyone to think I was being a big jerko.. just havin some fun!

Hey all you Royalty worshipers.   England lost the war, so what's all this crumpet talk. How about some English muffins?

I mean, I mean, how about some bagels? Phew, that was a close one. Please don't tell me they're an English invention. If so, anybody for some wonder bread toast?

Rob:

I agree that wonder bread won't just make it, because it isn't shaped like a disc as crumpets and English muffins are. Let us not forget, this is a Bruce Moen forum, even though some people think it's an Emanuel Swedenborg forum, who reminds me of square shaped white toast.

I don't know about scones. Sounds like an alien way of doing things. Not all beings do things the way humans do.

Rob Calkins wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 9:01am:

I KNEW it! Those crumpets look MUCH better than English muffins....

And "rock cakes" are the PERFECT description of scones in my honest opinion.....I will forever describe them thusly..........

May I add that that is a LOT of butter on that crumpet!  Mmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

love, blink 

Hi Rob Recoverer and all. I do live in England and we also have bagels and toasted teacakes as well as scones and crumpets,we have places in England where you go for what we call an english tea,which consists of these things,scones are lovely when you slice them in half and put strawberry jam and lots of cream in them and make like a scone sandwich,also we have Jam doughnuts and apple doughnuts and apple turnovers and jam turnovers as well and also strawberry jam and lemon curd tarts also included in an english tea and also cream tarts with a strawberry in the middle and egg custard tarts served with the good old english cup of tea.

I remember going to Ely Cathederal in England and they had what we call a tea shop there.i had a scone and they gave me a small pot of strawberry jam and a dish of cream so i sliced my scone and put the whole pot of jam and the whole dish of cream between the two slices and i nearly got lock jaw trying to eat it,i remember my father looking at me with disapproval,but i enjoyed it.

http://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/old-fashioned-english-custard-tart,1113,RC.ht...

Love and God bless        Love juditha

gosh, I think I've arrived in a favorable part of hell here   Juditha, I have an entirely different image of you now   and Irene I had no idea I was spelling crumpet wrong and visualizing it wrong...I was imaging a hard rock like piece of bland dough, I see they are crisp on the outside and soft on the inside, what a combo taste delight.

now, we return our show back to it's sponsors, I hear we can eat food in the afterlife and it's quite as delectible as our imaginary taste buds allow, being as we feel quite solid and fleshy on the other side, the only difference is we can't kill each other as we're already dead. lol.
thats good news!  I am looking forward to not slaving over a hot stove and just snapping my fingers and poof! one meal served up and I will certainly have a crumpet ready for all of you. love, alysia

Cosmic_Ambitions wrote on Mar 24^th, 2007 at 2:27pm:


lol, CA, this crumpet is in the bible? I'll have to check that out! can I try to interpret this?
lets see now, an unsure crumpet that needs some assurance, it says eat up and forget the war...for whosoever prepareth for war doth in truth invent war...

us hip hippies used to say HA! what if they gave a war and nobody came? probably too busy with buttered crumpets..
Haaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrr!

I wish I lived in England...what a bunch of blokes they are..a bit of a crumpet, thats me, I think

Hi OOBD Its nice dont you think that us coming together on here to have a laugh and conversation about crumpets,which has been a great sign of friendly warm affection between us as friends,when the subject on here was about "Blasphemy against the holy spirit cannot be forgiven",i feel here that God likes us to have a laugh,even if it is about crumpets .

Theres a saying OOBD "Laugh and the world laughs with you"

I should say that God found it amusing as well, even Cosmic said crumpet is also in the bible.

So dont be so CRUMPY about this,cheer up you might like it,byeeee

Love and God bless      Love juditha