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Jesus (Read 12179 times)
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Re: Jesus
Reply #15 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 9:24pm
 
I am clearly far too cynical...I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I think that means I should go to bed.
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Re: Jesus
Reply #16 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 10:15pm
 
Chum,

How would you know?  You don't read books and you clearly have not read much of Lewis.  I challenge you to either document your claims by book and page or resign yourself to the status of just another notch on my pistol-Bible.
*****************
-Be careful what you wish for, Don.
__________

Chum: -"C.S. Lewis was a fundamentalist, who believed in hell-fire and
brimstone (or the mid-twentieth century "polite" version
thereof. He WAS a believer in eternal-torture-of-nonbelievers
in any case, and that puts him right down there with Caligula,
Nero, and Pol Pot as far as morality goes.)"

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
*****************
-Oh, Yeah??? Keep reading, Don old boy...
__________

  You need to be more than a Googlefritz and actually read his witty book "The Great Divorce."  The book tells the story of a bus load of tourists from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven.  where each spirit is given the chance to enter Heaven if he is willing to forego whatever precious sin he hugs to himself.  Each tourist rationalizes why he wouldn't be comfortable in Heaven.  Like many New Agers, Lewis believed that one chooses to remain in Hell and is not consigned there by an angry God.   Fundamentalists declined to bring him over to the USA to lecture because he drank booze and smoked a pipe!
*****************
-I've read "Great Divorce." One scene from it stuck with me...
One of the "ghosts" was converted, as you'll recall. Did he stick
around to help his fellow hellions to see the light? HELL, NO!
Instead, he hopped on his mangy cayuse (O.K., a fancy-schmancy horse then) and went galloping off into the sunset (or whatever.)
Then there's the lady who confronts her former husband. She may have had her reasons to not "need" him anymore, but she came across like some kind of robot in her dealing with him...
Compare this typical "I got mine, so screw you" Christian attitude, with the eastern, reincarnationist Buddhist one... the "Boddhisattva." The "boddhisattva" has become "liberated" from the need for further reincarnation, but CHOOSES to come back to this "vale of tears" to enlighten his fellow men!
Which attitude do YOU find more noble, Don???
As for the booze and pipe, well, that was the 1950's and before. Head down South to a KKK rally back in those days (Good Southern Baptists all!) and see the blue clouds of tobacco smoke and free-flowing streams of moonshine whiskey. (My guess is that Lewis' habits were more offensive to the "little brown church" Northern Methodists and such, than the REAL fundies - who were still mostly "South of the Mason-Dixon" in those days.)
Sorry Don, but C.S. Lewis would fit right in with Ted Haggard, Pat Roberston, and Tim Lahaye if he'd been born 50 years later than he was. He wasn't a modern fundie, TRUE! He was a "proto-fundie." (G.K. Chesterson, another British "proto-fundie" comes to mind; men of their times, perhaps?) But in the end, where's the difference???
__________

Duh, adults don't usually enjoy children's books, Chum.
*****************
-Wanna bet?
Not only are Americans more spoiled and immature than ever (look at what passes for prime-time TV these days) BUT many an adult will tell you that one of the things they like about being a parent, is that they get to go to kid's movies again. (Although what with the crap they're calling animation these days, you gotta wonder. I'll bet "Finding Nemo" is constantly playing in EVERY theater in "Hell", but again I DO digress!) OH, and one more thing...
How do you explain the popularity of Harry Potter with so  many adults? Maybe it's because that just as with "Narnia", MAGIC appeals to "children of all ages", as old P.T. Barnum (a hero of mine) might have said. (He also once said something about "suckers", but that's another story...)
(And why IS it that Scooby-Doo is still so popular today? Maybe because all those early '70's kids grew up and watched it with THEIR kids? I wonder why they'd put themselves to so much torment, they must truly be selfless saints..!)
__________
Kermit the frog (Jim Henson) spoke at Harvard's commencement when i was there and we enjoyed his act.   But few of us still watched "Sesame Street!"  Besides, Lewis's kiddie books must be pretty good to be made into a Hollywood blockbuster movie.
*****************
-So what? "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard got made into a big
Hollywood movie as well. (Now it IS true, that "Battlefield Earth" managed to nudge aside Ed Wood's "Plan 9 From Outer Space" as the official worst movie of all time. "Lion/Witch/Wardrobe" didn't sink that far, but official reviews for it have been spotty at best. And yes, American fundies have tended to rate it better than normal folk...)
BTW, DO NOT TELL ME that the "Narnia" books weren't Christian propaganda. (Just like "Great Divorce", I've read all of 'em...)
Have a Nice Day,

B-man
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Re: Jesus
Reply #17 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 12:35am
 
B-man,

Over the years, you have steadfastly refused to read anything relevant to the points being debated.   Have you really read "The Great Dviroce?"  It's hard to believe because your critique overlooks the fact that it is a witty satire and its characters are not intended to be role models.  As a satire, it received a rave review from the New Yorker!  In any case, the book implies the possibility of choosing to leave Hell--hardly a Fundie notion.  And you ducked my main challenge--to show me why C. S. Lewis deserves your characterization as a fire and brtimstone Fundie. 

Dude had a moving spiritual experience on a bus and decided to share it with us.  So I thought he might interested in a famous spiritual experience on a bus.  I never suggested that Dude's experience was the same, that Dude should emulate C. S. Lewis, or that Lewis's ideas were totally beyond reproach.   So as usual, your rant is totally irrelevant.

Don
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Re: Jesus
Reply #18 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 4:39am
 
B-man,

Over the years, you have steadfastly refused to read anything relevant to the points being debated.   Have you really read "The Great Dviroce?"  It's hard to believe because your critique overlooks the fact that it is a witty satire and its characters are not intended to be role models.  As a satire, it received a rave review from the New Yorker!  In any case, the book implies the possibility of choosing to leave Hell--hardly a Fundie notion.  And you ducked my main challenge--to show me why C. S. Lewis deserves your characterization as a fire and brtimstone Fundie. 

Dude had a moving spiritual experience on a bus and decided to share it with us.  So I thought he might interested in a famous spiritual experience on a bus.  I never suggested that Dude's experience was the same, that Dude should emulate C. S. Lewis, or that Lewis's ideas were totally beyond reproach.   So as usual, your rant is totally irrelevant.

Don
*****************
O.K., call it irrelevant if you like. I'm just tired of seeing everyone
from "Campus Crusade For Christ" (with its odious Josh MacDowell
materials) to my knucklehead buddy A. trotting out C.S. Lewis as their
ring-champ.
It reminds me of Amway, with their hero "Dexter Yager" who made
it big selling soap back in the 50's or whatever. (Don't they have any
more RECENT success stories in Amway? Or for that matter, doesn't literalist Christianity have any other post-1900 intellectual heavyweights aside from C.S. Lewis? - to the extent that he WAS a heavyweight, and not just a good social climber within the confines of Oxford University...)
Just like I lost my best buddy ("Gene") back in 1992 to Amway (all he wanted to do was recruit me after he joined it, and eventually I found myself avoiding him) I am now losing my current best friend ("Albert" here in Montana, that is) to C.S. Lewis-quoting Christianity - I'm ducking HIS company now!
So forgive me, if I'm a wee bit snarky here..!

B-man
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Re: Jesus
Reply #19 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 5:07am
 
Harry Potter's modern Chum!  I think everything else is underground because the sensitivity and style might be a bit lost on some people like .. um .. you ..

oooh  Smiley
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Re: Jesus
Reply #20 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 11:03am
 
B-man,

C. S. Lwisis is an excellent scholar and writer with very impressive academiic contributions, apart from his popular Christian books.  I would recommend neither him nor Josh MacDowell for Christian apologetics.   However, that is my speciality.  So if you [or Dude] would like me to engage certain sources of doubt, I'd be glad to do so.   You only need to ask. 

In the final analysis, though, the approach of Dude and recoverer is far more important than any rationalistic approach.  For example, it is easy to refute the recent pseudo-documentary on Christ's alleged tomb, but such a refutation advances no one's spiritual quest.  There is no substitute for genuine experiential encounters with the risen Christ, which can lead to an empowering personal reliatinship with God, not to mention the potential for a Swedenborgian calibre range of astral exploration.  If it it weren't for such encounters, I myself would have abandoned my Christian faith. 

Have you ever wondered why St. Paul only quotes Jesus a few times.   He is afraid that Christians will transform Christianity into another Jewish legalism.  He does not want people to simply focus on what Jesus taught "back then," but rather on what the risen Christ is communicating to your spirit right now through mystical experience.  If you'd like me to document this point in detail, I'd be glad to do so.  And what is the key to such experiences?   Aside from direct study of His life and teaching, three things: (1) contemplation of both the meaning of PUL and what it might feel like to connect with and experience its Source; (2) the support and prayers of a loving community of like-minded people (e. g. a church, but also a prayer meeting or a support group such as AA);  (3) the quest to detect Christ's presence in your relationship with a troubled brother or sister, whose need you are trying to meet; (

With respect to (3), I feel so privileged to have established regular communication with Dark Knight.  Her need is so great (oppression by ghastly negs), but she is a spiritual warrior and her courage, wisdom, and spirituality shines brightly through her struggles and greatly inspires me.   My dialogue with her sweetens my own relationship with Christ.

Don
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Jesus on a Bad Day
Reply #21 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 3:09pm
 
Well. Let see Jesus on a bad day.....Taken from the King James bible version.

a) Luke Chapter:19, verse 27-28.......Jesus says to kill his/your enemies!!

b) Luke Chapter 14, verse 26.....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 35-36....Matthew
     Chapter 19, verse 29.....Jesus says to hate /abandon your family!!

c) Matthew Chapter 12, verse 30....Luke Chapter 11, verse 23.....Jesus says
     he that he is not with me is against me!? Sounds like George Bush! What happened
     to free will?

  d) Luke Chapter 12, verse 51-53....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 34.....Jesus says
     he came to cause strife and war. Oh Dear!!!!

   e) Matthew Chapter 5, verse 45....God/Jesus? favours neither good nor evil? Whoops.
      I thought the evil were going to hell?

   f) First Corinthians Chapter 11, verse 14....God hates long hair..Jesus, the barber awaits!

  g) Matthew Chapter 6, verse 5-6....Jesus says to Dont pray in public places. Hey. What
     about the churches. They cost us a fortune to build!

   And here's one  from the old testament. I just couldn't help myself.

   A) Deuteronomy Chapter 21, verse 20-21....God says it's OK to kill your unruly or
      rebellious children. Sorry kids, can you fetch me that pile of stones over there!

    ...................Regards. Darth. May both sides of the force be with you.
   
   
     
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Re: Jesus
Reply #22 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 3:22pm
 
Regarding what Darth had to say, fortunately Dude was wise enough to open his heart and find out the truth of the matter.

Darth, if you spoke to people in a time period where communication was like it was during the time period of Jesus, 70-100 years passed before people recorded what you said, people translated your words without referring to you, don't you think some errors would occur?

Jesus doesn't have bad days. He lives in an eternal moment of divine perfection.
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Re: Jesus
Reply #23 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 11:38pm
 
[“Well. Let’s see Jesus on a bad day.”]..Actually, Darth, it’s your bad day.  Due to your unique blend of arrogance and ignorance, I will make constructive use of you as my whipping boy.

[“Taken from the King James bible version.”]   Of course, since you just googled this and would otherwise have no clue on how to put this together.  The KJV is based on later and more corrupt Greek manuscripts and is just about the most inaccurate Bible translation.

[“Luke Chapter:19, verse 27-28.......Jesus says to kill his/your enemies!!”]  
No, you need to actually read what you mindlessly quote.   The speaker is “the nobleman” in the Parable of the Pounds.  Parables are symbolic stories based on a single point of comparison in which, unlike allegories, each detail is not separately symbolic.  The central character in most of Jesus’ parables is often either morally or intellectually flawed and the parable cannot properly be grasped until this flaw is recognized.   You can no more equate the nobleman’s statement with Jesus’ own views than you can equate God with the unjust vineyard owner (Matthew 20:1-15), the unjust manager (Luke 16:1-8). the unjust judge (Luke 18:1-7), the cranky neighbor roused from slumber (Luke
11:5-8), the dumb farmer whose seed generally falls in all the wrong places (Mark 4:3-8),  or the irresponsible shepherd who leaves his entire flock in danger to pursue one lost sheep (Luke 15:3-8).  Yet in all 7 parables, the flawed central characters are likened to God.  Sometimes, the villainy of the central figure is quite subtle.  For example, the novice interpreter would not realize that it is a transgression of Jewish law to sow mustard seed in your garden (Luke 13;18-19). Jesus’ pedagogy routinely features shock tactics and Semitic hyperbole to make people think. The suppressed premise is often, “You can learn a lot even from an idiot or scoundrel like this.      

[“Luke Chapter 14, verse 26.....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 35-36....Matthew
Chapter 19, verse 29.....Jesus says to hate /abandon your family!!”]
In Aramaic idiom “hate” means “loves more than.”   Thus, in Matthew’s parallel to Luke 14:26, he rightly translates “hate” as “loves more than (10:37-38).”  In Matthew 10:35-36, Jesus is announcing the fulfilment of Micah 7:6.  The expression “I have come not to bring peace, but a sword” is an Aramaic idiom to express the inevitable family-based persecution of new believers, not the desired result.   This also explains your misunderstanding of Matthew 19:29.  Jesus’ followers were often forced to choose between family loyalty or their nowfound faith.   The same point applies to your mischaracterization of Matthew 12:51-53.  I know this will come as a shock to you, Darth, but what Jesus actually taught was: e. g. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall bew called children of God (Matthew 5:9).”   “I have spoken these things to you, so that you may have peace (John 16:33).”  And Jesus of course taught His disciples to honor their parents (e. g. Matthew 19:17-19),

[“Luke Chapter 12, verse 51-53....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 34.....Jesus says he came to cause strife and war. Oh Dear!!!!”]

O dear, indeed!  You are clueless!   You apparently don’t realize that Jesus taught: “Those who take to the sword will perish by the sword (Matthew 26:52).”  “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bles those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you (Luke 6:27-28).”  And again, you ignore  the fact that Jesus is announcing the fulfilment of Micah 7:6, not reveling in the family discord His message sparks.

[“Matthew Chapter 12, verse 30....Luke Chapter 11, verse 23.....Jesus says he that he is not with me is against me!? Sounds like George Bush! What happened to free will?”]
“Jesus taught the opposite of what you imply: “Whoever is not against us is for us (Mark 9:40).” In this context, He defends the right of a non-Christian Jew to perform exorcisms in His name without first studying Jesus’ teachings!  The verse you cite has specific application to the battle egainst the forces of evil in our world.   Jesus’ point is that if you are apathetic towards evil,  you oppose what Jesus stands for as surely as if you actively reject Him.  
 
[“Matthew Chapter 5, verse 45....God/Jesus? favours neither good nor evil? Whoops. I thought the evil were going to hell?”]
________________________
I will quote this verse to allow the reader to detect Darth’s status as a lost ball in the tall weeds: “He [God] makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45).”  Whoops, I hate to break this to you, Darth; but God actually favors love and goodness.  But He loves evil people and is also showers them with earthly blessings.  Matthew 5:43-48 is paralleled in Luke 6:27-28, 32-36, where the last verse makes Jesus’ meaning clear: “Be merciful [even to your enemies] as your Father is merciful.”  

[“Matthew Chapter 6, verse 5-6....Jesus says to Dont pray in public places. Hey. What about the churches. They cost us a fortune to build!”]
_________________________________

Clueless to the point is being comical!   Jesus is warning against unpsiritual motivation in public prayer.   He lanents public ostentation and the flaunting of one’s spirituality; He is not attacking corporate prayer (see e. g. Matthew 18:19-20).   “And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to pray in the synagogues and street corners, SO THAT THEY MAY BE SEEN BY OTHERS.  Truly I tell you, they already have their reward (Matthew 6:5).”    

Your nasty comments about non-Gospel texts are equally misinformed, but this is a thread about Jesus; so I will stick to the topic.

Don
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Re: Jesus
Reply #24 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 12:05am
 
Darth.  Even I know that Jesus did not teach those things.  He certainly does not represent them, regardless of what any skewed translantions may read.  Please don't post garbage on my wonderful thread.
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Re: Jesus on a Bad Day
Reply #25 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 2:43am
 
-Darth B. - apparrently you haven't done your homework (*sigh*)
**********************
   f) First Corinthians Chapter 11, verse 14....God hates long hair..Jesus, the barber awaits!

-Any fundie preacher (especially the Colorado Springs megachurch
McJesus variety!) will tell you that Jesus actually had SHORT hair.
Yep, Jesus had a flat-top.
I'll bet he had an expensive business suit too, a 100-dollar
monogrammed necktie, and Guccis. (Just wait, I'll bet that's going to be
the next big archaeological find in Jerusalem! That, and a curiously
anachronistic copy of Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich"...)
Oh, and he didn't drink wine either. He drank GRAPE JUICE instead
(never mind how he kept fresh, unfermented grape juice from spoiling
in a pre-refrigeration world, considering it was a VERY seasonal product back then. That's why wine was so common in those days, it's the only thing that would keep..! But our megachurch McJesus preacher friend would tell you that it must've been another miracle. But if so, I
wonder why the Bible doesn't address it as such?)
And would Jesus have sold Amway, too - had it existed in the first century? (I wonder what the preacher would say to that?)
Pretty interesting stuff! (Gotta love those fundies, eh?)

B-man
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Re: Jesus
Reply #26 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 2:48am
 
St John 11v35 : Jesus wept.

For they hated him without a cause.

St John 15:18,19,25 :  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.  If ye were of the world, the world would love its own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you ... But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that it is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

St Luke 11:23 : He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

St John 12:28 :  Father, glorify thy name.  Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

St John 21:15 : Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.

With all my heart.


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Re: Jesus
Reply #27 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 2:56am
 
Darth.  Even I know that Jesus did not teach those things.  He certainly does not represent them, regardless of what any skewed translantions may read.  Please don't post garbage on my wonderful thread.
*****************
-O.K., Dude. I understand that you've had an experience, which (to you
at least) indicates that far from being a vicious torture-lover (as almost all CHURCHES make him out to be) - Jesus Christ
is a pretty fine fellow. Nothing wrong with that.
BUT, do you then submit, that most of the Bible is either forged, or irrelevant then? (With all of its blood-letting, stoning of adulterers/disobedient sons, ect; and swords, sorcery and sacrifices - including the idea that Jesus was a human sacrifice for our "sins", whatever "sin" means..! And THEN, there's the entire Book Of REVELATION to consider!!!)
In other words... if Jesus is for real, then we SHOULDN'T consider the
Bible an authoritative text for dealing with him/her/it??? And we DEFINITELY should ignore the "orthodox" views that the various
CHURCHES have for sale (considering that, whether Catholic or
Protestant - their views come down to us via the post-Constantine Roman church and, Constantine's Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, of which our present-day Bible is a product of...)
What say you, Dude?

B-man
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Re: Jesus
Reply #28 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 3:14am
 
Chumley, if i may say something;

The Bible is a Living Book as our God is a Living God ..

you should just stick to reading the sunday times mate.
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Re: Jesus
Reply #29 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 4:09am
 
Chumley, if i may say something;

The Bible is a Living Book as our God is a Living God ..

you should just stick to reading the sunday times mate.
*****************
Yeah, you got a point there, Augie.
The Sunday Times is WAY less of an insufferable wade
than the Bible. Why DID God have to make his "instruction
manual" such a horrific bore to read? I have the UTMOST respect for
ANYONE who's able to read that monstrosity cover-to-cover (which about 99% of Christians haven't done anyway, including most clergy! Only
the Book of Mormon is a bigger torture to read.)
BTW, you say it's a living book? Then If I acccidentaly
drop a Bible on my toe, does it feel more pain than I do?
(Or does it "feel my pain"..?)

B-man
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