Conversation Board - DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSERVER

David9

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DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSERVER
Mar 10^th, 2007 at 2:34am

i HAVE BEEN HAVING A LOT OF VERY CLEAR DREAMS AND VERY ENJOYABLE.
I HAVE BEEN WONDERING AGAIN HOW DO DREAMS REALLY WORK?IS IT A CASE OF BEING THE DREAM WEAVER THE OBSERVER AND THE DREAMSCAPE ALL AT THE SAME TIME.THE TRICK THAT I CAN'T FIGURE OUT IS HOW DOES IT FOOL ME INTO BELIEVING I AM DEALING WITH AN OBJECTIVE REALITY WHILST IN THE DREAM THAT IS? I REMEMBER ONCE MANY YEARS AGO I WAS SITTING AT THE MOVIES AND SUDDENLY WITHOUT WARNING I HAD THIS VIVID EXPERIENCE OF BEING THE OBSERVER,THE MOVIE,THE PROJECTOR,THE SCREEN AND THE COMPLETE MOVIE THEATRE AND ALL OF THE PEOPLE.ALL AT THE SAME MOMENT.IT WAS A VERY ENLIGHTENING EXPERIENCE AS YOU CAN IMAGINE.THEN JUST AS SUDDENLY EVERYTHING RETURNED TO ,"NORMAL??" WONDERING IF THE TWO ARE CONNECTED IN SOME WAY.

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LaffingRain

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #1 - Mar 10^th, 2007 at 2:49am

hi there. I once got a message in the inbetween state: it said "you are the seeker, the finder and the observer."
at that time I was only beginning to develop the observer part, which is the fun part my way of thinking!

the observer seems to preside over the other parts. The observer is not emotional. at least to my experience, is above reactions and emotions.
seems like your awareness expanded outward and you experienced "oneness" or like a fusion type encounter. you might say that it was a moment of truth.
this observer is neat, because like Monroe says, it knows theres no right or wrong, so it stands outside of judgement process and watches.
objective reality is also in dreaming..decisions can be made there or here, as I've noticed I do make decisions while dreaming which carry over into C1, so I feel dreams are objective reality, not just subjective.
and the movie experience..I believe we are in a movie and that our minds projected C1 reality and we all believe we are separate from one another when we are all connected as in being one, pretending we are not, for the sake of building individuality into our experiences. when you have such a mind blowing experience like you described, it seems it only comes once in a lifetime, and we build on these dreams. thanks for sharing it

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David9

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #2 - Mar 10^th, 2007 at 3:17am

LaffingRain wrote on Mar 10^th, 2007 at 2:49am:

hi there. I once got a message in the inbetween state: it said "you are the seeker, the finder and the observer."
at that time I was only beginning to develop the observer part, which is the fun part my way of thinking!

the observer seems to preside over the other parts. The observer is not emotional. at least to my experience, is above reactions and emotions.
seems like your awareness expanded outward and you experienced "oneness" or like a fusion type encounter. you might say that it was a moment of truth.
this observer is neat, because like Monroe says, it knows theres no right or wrong, so it stands outside of judgement process and watches.
objective reality is also in dreaming..decisions can be made there or here, as I've noticed I do make decisions while dreaming which carry over into C1, so I feel dreams are objective reality, not just subjective.
and the movie experience..I believe we are in a movie and that our minds projected C1 reality and we all believe we are separate from one another when we are all connected as in being one, pretending we are not, for the sake of building individuality into our experiences. when you have such a mind blowing experience like you described, it seems it only comes once in a lifetime, and we build on these dreams. thanks for sharing it

Thanks for that explanation sounds very right,especially where you were saying we pretend to live this separate existence to "build individuality?But here's the rub,how can you build individuality and yet be "one with all" "no separation" whats going on here really?This is a paradox.Probably our C1 brain can't cope with these truths as we are not hardwired to easily think outside three dimensions.Perhaps the way to understand it is like these phrases..."I am and I am Not""When Love is Self is Not,When Self is Love is Not"" I am the Drop and the Ocean" Osho used to say"You are enlightened! pretending not to be"he also said"The Drop becomes the Ocean and yet remains the Drop" I have also wondered if this can be explained by the p[phenomenon of Light.light seems to have two aspects particles (photons) and wave form.We are essentially made from light so perhaps we experience separateness and physicalness when we are focused on the particle element and when we are focused on the wave element we experience this universal wholeness. One with all,no separation.So then just as the nature of light we are and we are not.

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LaffingRain

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #3 - Mar 10^th, 2007 at 3:59am

I enjoy your response, that we are and we are not. it explains the nature of our duality world somewhat. I have often felt my nothingness state of being, and also the other side, my everything, center of the universe creative ability.

coming from the ontology thought, we are drops in the ocean, yet we are the entire ocean I see thought as electric. although I've never studied science, of the photons and quarks or dna strands, etc. I see that thought is energy, and that my energy body can expand to travel the collective grid lines of the ocean, air, the elements, and that these items are also thought.
we have more thought from another school, that enlightenment is the ceasing of duality thought..there we might find the supreme balanced state of being. I must return again to the all seeing eye, the observer.
but back to the electric element, perhaps this is fire.
I do a blinking on and off. consciousness seems to blink in and out of reality. what is reality is individual to each.
I would say you are right on, and that the heart path is the "no separation, nonduality state to be in for ultimate peaceful expansion of awareness.
I would say when we sleep we blink into nonphysical reality, then awaking is blinking back into another vibratory level of being.
your question how to build individuality and still be one with all, is a paradox and no easy answers..I think it may have something to do with the courage to speak your truth even though it is against the collective ideas, and that builds your experience to not be as your peers exactly, but to still feel at one with them in the heart.
although I know that's not scientific, its connected with the will to love and the will to serve life while still feeling like the drop and the ocean at once.
hmm. have to reread myself to see what I said. just remember, too much thinking is unhealthy as we are here temporarily..I just do enough to get by on...

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dave_a_mbs

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #4 - Mar 10^th, 2007 at 5:36pm

That "all at once" experience is sometimes called 'sarvastarka samadhi" and is an indicator of a high level of spiritual development. It was only scary because you were poorly prepared. There are further experiences of that same general sort, and eventully you merge back into the Source.

For you to have had such an experience means that somewhere you did whatever is needed to set it up - usually called "living right". My suggestion is to accept the experience for exactly what it was, and not try to dissect it to death, because we lack the words in everyday language by which to handle the concepts, so there is little benefit from foorcing the experience into a verbal form. There is some danger of accepting the labvels for the realities to which thy were applied, in which case you also lose the essence of the experience to some degree. Then, go on with whatever your spiritual practices are, so that you can watch the rest of the story develop.

dave

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David9

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #5 - Mar 12^th, 2007 at 6:51am

dave_a_mbs wrote on Mar 10^th, 2007 at 5:36pm:

That "all at once" experience is sometimes called 'sarvastarka samadhi" and is an indicator of a high level of spiritual development. It was only scary because you were poorly prepared. There are further experiences of that same general sort, and eventully you merge back into the Source.

For you to have had such an experience means that somewhere you did whatever is needed to set it up - usually called "living right". My suggestion is to accept the experience for exactly what it was, and not try to dissect it to death, because we lack the words in everyday language by which to handle the concepts, so there is little benefit from foorcing the experience into a verbal form. There is some danger of accepting the labvels for the realities to which thy were applied, in which case you also lose the essence of the experience to some degree. Then, go on with whatever your spiritual practices are, so that you can watch the rest of the story develop.

dave

Just to put you right re that experience it wasn't scary for me at all,in fact I was enthralled by it.I had had many non ordinary reality experiences prior to that one and it was to me a gift.I also know you can't disect it with the mind as it will only give frustration as it is not an earthly brain experience.The brain/mind can't cope with this type of thing and I know that well.Thanks for your thoughts on this anyway.

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recoverer

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #6 - Mar 12^th, 2007 at 3:01pm

I figure that we're awareness to begin with. Standing by itself there is no way for awareness in one place to be different than awareness in another place. In the beginning, there wasn't anything to be aware of.

This was okay, because the source that was aware had the ability to create. It started to create so it seemed as if there is more than one self. Each self can create in its own unique way.

For a while these selves forget about who they are and let their creations get the best of them. Eventually they find out that they have become confused, regain control so they can create according to love and wisdom, and spend the rest of eternity creating accordingly, without forgetting who they truly are.

Because time isn't real, each self finds out who it is in the exact same moment, despite how the illusion of linear time makes things seem.

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LaffingRain

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #7 - Mar 12^th, 2007 at 3:05pm

I think this thread deserves to lengthen itself because of what David(original poster) introduced regarding what is thought of as a dream. I would like to take on the chore Cheesy

of re-defining dream, obe, paranormal experiences, include visions in that mish mash.

and we now have two Davids on board. cool. DavidMBS works with people in other lives, visions, mental stuff. I imagine he brings a lot of calming influence to those who come to him.

I didn't see David-9 as frightened from what happened to you, but I did think some awe was there from using all caps in a post. Was I correct? these things are so precious when they occur, a true blessing from higher self, our connection to god, what is a true explanation of our being. who would not experience awe? I am somewhat living myself in awe at the present time which is long ways off from boredom, at some things that are happening to me, that on the outside would seem commonplace to others yet I know the struggles, the joys and pains of taking a look at our own higher powers for good, and the way we can experience joy to share it and pass it on, this oneness we share, the commonalities of our individual experiences.
thanks DaveMbs to give me term "sarvastarka samadhi". it helps to look at that too, as perhaps an attainment we truly can reach, and I know the merge is imminent, coming and going, staying and leaving, even now. I see indications I'm not alone here.

watching the rest of the story develop is what I'm doing, same as I ever did starting from an early age however now there is a lot more forebearance, less fear to be watching it.
I do love eastern religion, it's much deeper than Christianity. I presume yoga hails from the east. so did Christianity, but we are only getting to the mystic part of Christianity.

regarding Dave-9 question about how does the dreaming environment convince us, you use the term "fool" us into believing we are in objective reality?

I don't know

does it have something to do with finding the meaning in living? Is this what we want to see? If joy is present, would we think we are fooled? If we think we are being fooled would the joyful feelings of discovery? would they fade away if we deny this did happen? I'm thinking about some experiences I've had out there and how it is changing me inside to be more light of foot, to have more love in my life, or love of life, to feel more unlimited. actually, these experiences are humbling. I feel small. I think being in a body, in C1, this is how it's supposed to be, feeling small is not a bad thing either because the largeness is on the other side of small. balance in other words. thinking on our connections, our similar thoughts, similar feelings, the basic need to share our journeys shows our connections of being one in the spirit.

I like this image but I wonder if she's doing the little finger bending exercise Bruce told me about? anybody know?

love, alysia

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LaffingRain

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #8 - Mar 12^th, 2007 at 4:38pm

recoverer wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 3:01pm:

I figure that we're awareness to begin with. Standing by itself there is no way for awareness in one place to be different than awareness in another place. In the beginning, there wasn't anything to be aware of.

This was okay, because the source that was aware had the ability to create. It started to create so it seemed as if there is more than one self. Each self can create in its own unique way.

For a while these selves forget about who they are and let their creations get the best of them. Eventually they find out that they have become confused, regain control so they can create according to love and wisdom, and spend the rest of eternity creating accordingly, without forgetting who they truly are.

Because time isn't real, each self finds out who it is in the exact same moment, despite how the illusion of linear time makes things seem.

Albert posted at 1201 and I at 1205. we are thinking along the same lines today

just some reflections off your thought Albert..I really like that u brought up being awareness; awareness is what I feel like these days, whether dreaming or not, it is like a spacious feeling not on my outside living conditions, but on the inside. the feeling of being awareness is expansive; like standing on a cliff looking at a scene of hill, valley and stream off into a horizon.
we could say each of us is a unit of consciousness.

could you elaborate what u mean by each self finding out who it is in the "exact" same moment while under the influence of linear time?

I suppose we could infer each of us already knows who we are but some are still under the illusion of linear time to find and fulfill self prophecy. all in all the body is in linear time, like it or not. it's grounded so to speak.

one other thought; when I first read David9's post, I saw this image of a fellow sitting in a theatre and his mind expanded into a huge cloud of awareness..his essence permeated the surrounding field of energy where his body sat in linear time. It's almost like astral flight. he realized he was the same as the particles of the wall, the seat, the screen, the others around him. He participated in creation. to have continued in this state would not have been conducive to remaining here in C1, so he drew in his antannae, his expansive energy and focused once more on being a mere human but the memory would lead him to his purpose for coming here, in linear time.

love is all there is.

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #9 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 7:49pm

HI Alysia-
Sarvastarka samadhi involves the realization that there are no true opposites, but only circular references. It's actually very common, but most people don't recognize it. Swami Sivananda claimed that his studnts would attain full enlightenment through stimulation of the kundalini in six months or so - meaning that these are not even unusual experiences, and that they are within the immediate grasp of all of us - not a matter of "maybe in this lifetime", but more like whether you prefer this week or next?

David9-
I suggest that you keep doing whatever you are doing - it seems to be working. You don't get spiritual experiences without merit.

d

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LaffingRain Super Member Offline Choose this Day Posts: 5249 Arizona Gender:	Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER Reply #10 - Mar 14^th, 2007 at 8:31pm my ear lobes wiggled when I read your post Dave. lol..I must be enlightened, either that or theres something wrong with my ears...
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David9

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #11 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 6:31am

dave_a_mbs wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 7:49pm:

HI Alysia-
Sarvastarka samadhi involves the realization that there are no true opposites, but only circular references. It's actually very common, but most people don't recognize it. Swami Sivananda claimed that his studnts would attain full enlightenment through stimulation of the kundalini in six months or so - meaning that these are not even unusual experiences, and that they are within the immediate grasp of all of us - not a matter of "maybe in this lifetime", but more like whether you prefer this week or next?

David9-
I suggest that you keep doing whatever you are doing - it seems to be working. You don't get spiritual experiences without merit.

d

Thankyou for your acknowledgment about doing something right.That experience was over twenty years ago.I don't have that sort of thing these days.My psychic life is very quiet for some reason.although I have a quiet contentment that I didn't have all those years ago.
The evolution of our spiritual knowledge I feel proceeds in different ways and cycles.There were times when I was much more clairvoyant than I am now.I seem to be very much in a state of peace and contentment and yet very busy on a practical level.Bit like the old Zen statement "before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water,after enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water".my addition "only different"No cosmic fireworks these days,but somehow it doesn't matter.The hunger for those experiences has died away very much.I feel pretty ordinary these days and it doesn't matter really.The main thing I feel is the inner feeling of fullness and contentment.Its all abit strange really.
Love to you all.

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #12 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 12:59pm

Alysia:

I've had a number of experiences which told me that linear time isn't real.

The first time was about 27 years ago while I was in the Army walking guard duty one night. All of a sudden the World became a mystery to me. I understood that it wasn't the physical thing I imagined it to be. I tried to break it down to the subatomic level, but I knew that this wasn't the explanation. I also clearly understood that I wasn't the body based being I had been taking myself for. I understood that I was the awareness that was aware of my body based identity, but I couldn't tell what my awareness was. I also very clearly understood without a shadow of a doubt that there is no such thing as a particular moment of time nor a particular location. These things were nothing but concepts. There was more to this experience but I want to continue with others.

I used to think even if I become enlightened I still couldn't be happy as long as a universe of suffering beings still existed. I really struggled with this dilema for a while. Then one day while driving my car I clearly understood that this World doesn't exist, because linear time isn't real, and when I awaken I will find that all other beings have also awakened at the exact same moment. There was a strong feeling of release and joy during this experience. Shades of ACIM eh?

Since this experience I have had a number of experiences which have told me that time doesn't exist in the linear manner we think. The depth of what I have experienced has been verified by others. On three different occasions when I was in a state of mind where I understood that if I made the choice I would have the experience of this illusory time based world disolve into what is real, a different spiritually intuned lady became really attracted to me. Not in a physical manner, but in a sense that they were picking up on the energy I was vibing. Two of them asked me if I was enlightened. I wasn't, just tuned into the possibility.

The above was before I made conscious contact with my spirit guidance. The first time I made contact with my disc I was told just as you found inconsistencies in your dreams, find inconsistencies in your waking state. I got a strong sense that one of the illusions they were talking about is the illusion of linear time.

Lately my guidance been really working with me to obtain Christ consciousness. A few recent messages from them have suggested that time isn't real. For example, last night I was meditating and was in an expanded state of consciousness, they showed me a clock, and the hands stopped moving.

Actually, the guard duty experience wasn't the first time I learned about no time. During the night in heaven experience I've shared before, I understood that everything works out wonderfully for everybody in the end. It could be that I had an experience of this glorius end. It isn't a matter of existence coming to an end. It is a matter of illusory existence coming to an end.

LaffingRain wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 4:38pm:

[quote author=recoverer link=1173508491/0#6 date=1173726107]
Because time isn't real, each self finds out who it is in the exact same moment, despite how the illusion of linear time makes things seem.

Albert
could you elaborate what u mean by each self finding out who it is in the "exact" same moment while under the influence of linear time?

I suppose we could infer each of us already knows who we are but some are still under the illusion of linear time to find and fulfill self prophecy. all in all the body is in linear time, like it or not. it's grounded so to speak.

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #13 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 2:46pm

quote Dave9: I seem to be very much in a state of peace and contentment and yet very busy on a practical level.Bit like the old Zen statement "before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water,after enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water".my addition "only different"No cosmic fireworks these days,but somehow it doesn't matter.The hunger for those experiences has died away very much.I feel pretty ordinary these days and it doesn't matter really.The main thing I feel is the inner feeling of fullness and contentment.Its all abit strange really.
Love to you all.
_________

ditto on that David, well said! along the lines of what Recoverer is getting into regarding time in a linear sense being an allusion, I started practicing the now moment for about 20 or so years which led to the fullness and contentment that u r talking about, as now was all I possessed. yes, its strange, new, feels like I'm at home wherever I go. except, lol, on the freeway when I drive too slow. Undecided

got nowhere to rush to you know. I am enjoying myself here at last.
thanks again for joining us here. alysia

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Re: DREAMS WHO IS THE DREAMER AND WHO IS THE OBSER
Reply #14 - Mar 15^th, 2007 at 2:54pm

Alysia- I'm glad that your ears are enlightened. Makes it possible to hear bright sayings, and illuminating remarks, no doubt.

Actually, since enlightenment seems to be a continual process that begins with the initial inkling that not only is there "something else" but that we're all involved in it etc, the majority of the members of the Forum are enlightened. After taking the first terrible step and admitting that my ego is not the summum bonm of the cosmos and that a spiritual existence is real, the rest seems to be mostly a matter of getting used to it in various degrees.

David9- usually kundalini and related things are expected to develop in a quiet and well controlled manner that brings few outward side effects. The yogic phenomena are somewhat extreme and not at all usual for non-yogis. Evidently your later life has been a good demonstration of this.

Recoverer- IMHO another case of enlightened awareness followed by normal growth and spiritual develoment. I honestly feel fortunate that I am able to encounter people of such a highly developed nature.

Years ago I used to look at Tibentan thangkas that portrayed groups of buddhas, pratyeka buddhas, rishis and arhants and so on, and I couldn't figure out how this could be possible. Evidently the artist simply had forgotten to include the computers and email connections.

d

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