-IF Literalist Christianity is true.
How so? Lack of faith, my friends.
Think about it. Jesus was VERY explicit, that if you had so
much as the faith of a "mustard seed", you could tell a
mountain to move, and it WOULD! (Matthew 17:20.)
SO... we are currently involved in a religiously-flavored
war in Iraq.
What's up with the bombs, bullets, tanks, planes, and
soldiers?
All we need is a few chaplains... with FAITH.
Think about it. Imagine our next assault on, say... Fallujah.
Imagine a chaplain walking into town... his Bible held high in
one hand...
And blasts of Holy Lightning from his OTHER hand, blowing away
insurgents with unerring accuracy! And a clear bubble of Holy Power
surrounding our hero, which the insurgent's bullets and IED
shrapnel just bounce off of!
Heck, he could even be preceded by an army of flesh-eating
zombies, black-cowled revenants, and lumbering ancient mummies, risen  up by prayer...
"Softening up" the insurgent positions first, and using up their ammunition as they futilely try to stop the onslaught of Holy Undead!
AND what soldiers and Marines we DO use, will arrive in a nice, pacified,
humbled community of new Christian converts (having seen FIRST-HAND the power of REAL Christian faith, as opposed to their own false religion!!!)
But we DON'T see this happening. What we DO see, is a typical
war that you might expect in an ATHEISTIC universe of matter
and energy, where the "good guys" (Christians?) get blown away
just as easily as the "bad guys" (Muslims?) Bullets, bombs, planes,
and SCIENCE... And NO MAGIC in sight!!!
So, what's up with Literalist Christianity (or Literalist Islam, or any
othe magical belief? Why do people believe in these things, when
they have been SO abundantly DISPROVEN?
*Is it not therefore time, to (at LEAST) refrain from attempts at literal interpretation of the Bible???*
Because otherwise, you're all going to Hell, Christian or not! If man is saved by FAITH ALONE... well, you AIN'T GOT ANY, chumps. (Watch the news and you'll see what I mean...)
Now, I've posted this question on a LOT of Christian/religious forums,
and the typical answer is THIS -
***"Oh come on, how could you ask such a STUPID question!!!"***
(That's what I call a COP-OUT, people.
Can you do better? If so, post away..!)

B-man

Brendan,

Ho hum.  Same old same old.  Jesus spoke in parables, the point of which was not always to be taken literally but to have the main idea or point understood.  When he spoke of the faith of a mustard seed and one could thereby move a mountain, it is a direct example of JC extolling the power of intent and thought creating reality.  If taken literally, it has less meaning in the physical because wishing or wanting is not the same thing as using intent.  There are 4 billion people on this planet with different wishes, desires, wants - and in the physical all these desires do not come true.

However, taken as a parable, the mustard seed can have real meaning for our lives as we see the subtleties of intent creating and changing our realities.  I have experienced this personally. 

Using purely literalist interpretations, you miss out on much.  Parables are not usually meant to be taken literally.


Matthew

Personally I've grown weary of some types of people making ignorant remarks about christianity and other belief systems. First, you create the proposition that they believe this and such in a certain way. Then you procede to ridicule it and tear it down.  The truth is, you are only debating yourself. You are the straw man. That is why those who have read your comments on christian forums think your arguement is stupid. That, and the advice of Jesus to not throw pearls before swine.

[quote author=MichaelGordon link=1172975594/0#4 date=1172993454]Personally I've grown weary of some types of people making ignorant remarks about christianity and other belief systems. First, you create the proposition that they believe this and such in a certain way. Then you procede to ridicule it and tear it down.  The truth is, you are only debating yourself. You are the straw man. That is why those who have read your comments on christian forums think your arguement is stupid. That, and the advice of Jesus to not throw pearls before swine.
*****************
Typical Christian answer, which says nothing. (How am I
the "straw man" here, outside of your own imagination???)
And... what "pearls" do you have, Michael...
That aren't superstitious garbage? I mean, idiotic drivel written
down thousands of years ago by goat-herders so ignorant,
they were about one step above NEANDERTHAL MEN... so primitive,
that even the Egyptians and Babylonians - who were
woefully primitive, superstitious cultures in their own right -
considered these early Hebrews to be barbarians.
We're talking about people here, who would wipe their a$$es
after a dump with their bare hands, and then EAT with those
same hands, without washing (much like some desert nomads do
even today.) Who would just as soon STONE you, as look at you
(once again, like today's nomadic Afro-Arabian hillbillies.)
Do you really believe, that people who were barely above the
mental level of the animals they herded, have "wisdom"
to impart to us? If so, you have clearly been brainwashed like
a good little church-bot "ought to be"...

B-man

P.S. Why is there NO examples of MAGIC (I mean like you read
about in scripture, not the stupid coincidences that pass for
"miracles" today) assuming that one or more or these religions
is true? You won't touch that one with a ten-foot pole, because
you can't. Either fess up, or shut up. OR, prove that I'm wrong.
Is that so much to ask of these faith-heads, especially when they
try to preach at me like my best buddy (recent Xian fundie convert)
did again today?

Do you expect me or christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice? That will not happen.
But I will give you a little something to chew upon in the mean time:
What part of 'love your neighbor as you love yourself' do you find so primitive, superstitious and offensive?

Do you expect me or Christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice

While I think Chumley (possibly playing devil's advocate?) gets a little cranked about things, I do have to say that it may be environmental to a degree.  I have not once read him declare "Christians say/do/believe so and such" where I couldn't find you a whole bunch around here that fit those descriptions to a tee. 

This area tends to have a heavy population of downright rabid Christians.  I think that's a personality thing...i.e., if they'd been born in Iraq they'd be rabid Muslims, but Christians is what we've got here.  When you live with that, in the sense of their forced intrusion into your life, on a daily basis, you do tend to get a bit emotional about it.  I don't care if someone doesn't want to work on Sunday, but don't start a neighborhood campaign to stop everyone else from doing so, just because you don't.  Don't start a vendetta against your neighbor because they defy any of your religious rules that aren't based on harm (i.e., I have no problem with vendettas against child molestors, I do have with picking on someone because they're pagan...which is why we kept our mouths shut about it, but the neighbor that didn't didn't deserve the treatment she got, much less based on "God would want it that way").

The town I came from, not fifty miles from here, that sort of thing would be unheard of.  We had a couple little churches that had proselytizing teams that came around and made themselves unpleasant now and then, but it was definitely the very tiny minority.  Had I never heard my mother's description of the little town she grew up in, I'd have been beyond shocked when I moved to this area and encountered the nasty, judgmental, intrusive (I think that's the big one...you can be judgmental as you want, as long as you don't push it into other people's lives) brand of Christianity they specialize in around here.

Now, I suspect Chumley of rabble rousing to a degree...after all, if Christianity is such a ridiculous thing, ignore it as long as it isn't making laws for you.  What the Bible says, or the Pope, or anyone else in authority in the Christian world, is totally irrelevant to me.  I'll engage in a sparring match for amusement occasionally, and that may be what he's doing, but it's like saying I should get bent because someone somewhere believes that Zeus is the all power-full.  Which of course he may be, but the comparison stands.  You just don't care that much about the subject when you have no belief in it at all.  Otherwise, the phrase "methinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind.

I will indulge in one pet peeve...the tendency (once again with the caveat that it applies to those I've personally met/dealt with, not necessarily all) of many Christians to take any mention of god as an outright declaration of belief in the Christian God and every single word in whichever version of the Bible they subscribe to.  I've had interesting discussions with people who declared Thomas Jefferson, of all people, a staunch Christian (and probably of their denomination, since aren't all right-thinking people?) because he used the word "God".  Despite his own repeated declaration otherwise, despite there being hundreds of "gods", despite that fact that even believing in the Christian God doesn't imply belief in the infallibility of the bible...if I say "God" 'cause I dropped a brick on my toe, the "obvious" meaning is that I'm closet Christian Reformed, if I'd just admit it to myself.

Yeah, I think Chumley's got some points, even if they aren't as universally applicable as he may think.  One of these days I'll start collecting the texts of some of the absolutely vicious church signs around here, just for him.

Do you expect me or Christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice[/i]

While I think Chumley (possibly playing devil's advocate?) gets a little cranked about things, I do have to say that it may be environmental to a degree.  I have not once read him declare "Christians say/do/believe so and such" where I couldn't find you a whole bunch around here that fit those descriptions to a tee. 

This area tends to have a heavy population of downright rabid Christians.  I think that's a personality thing...i.e., if they'd been born in Iraq they'd be rabid Muslims, but Christians is what we've got here.  When you live with that, in the sense of their forced intrusion into your life, on a daily basis, you do tend to get a bit emotional about it.  I don't care if someone doesn't want to work on Sunday, but don't start a neighborhood campaign to stop everyone else from doing so, just because you don't.  Don't start a vendetta against your neighbor because they defy any of your religious rules that aren't based on harm (i.e., I have no problem with vendettas against child molestors, I do have with picking on someone because they're pagan...which is why we kept our mouths shut about it, but the neighbor that didn't didn't deserve the treatment she got, much less based on "God would want it that way").

The town I came from, not fifty miles from here, that sort of thing would be unheard of.  We had a couple little churches that had proselytizing teams that came around and made themselves unpleasant now and then, but it was definitely the very tiny minority.  Had I never heard my mother's description of the little town she grew up in, I'd have been beyond shocked when I moved to this area and encountered the nasty, judgmental, intrusive (I think that's the big one...you can be judgmental as you want, as long as you don't push it into other people's lives) brand of Christianity they specialize in around here.

Now, I suspect Chumley of rabble rousing to a degree...after all, if Christianity is such a ridiculous thing, ignore it as long as it isn't making laws for you.  What the Bible says, or the Pope, or anyone else in authority in the Christian world, is totally irrelevant to me.  I'll engage in a sparring match for amusement occasionally, and that may be what he's doing, but it's like saying I should get bent because someone somewhere believes that Zeus is the all power-full.  Which of course he may be, but the comparison stands.  You just don't care that much about the subject when you have no belief in it at all.  Otherwise, the phrase "methinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind.
*****************
You've brought up a good point, Cricket.
What is that point, you ask..?
It is that I DO allow for some possibility (however slight) that
Christianity may be true.
If it is true, then "True Horror" are the best words I can think
of to describe the universe. And you MUST admit, this IS an
incredibly vicious, cruel universe we live in. If this universe
is MENTAL rather than physical, it can be safely said that this
is an EVIL universe, as well. (Which is why I frankly prefer
mechanistic materialism... I'd rather believe that the universe
is simply mindless and incapable of caring, than outright evil
and malevolent toward its creatures!)
Why do I constantly fight against Christianity then? Because the
more evidence that I find AGAINST it, the happier I am. The more
arguments I can come up with that Christians CAN'T answer, the
more likely it seems to me, that Christianity is untrue.
Because, pessimist that I am - to believe that THIS UNIVERSE
is the creation of an all-powerful, PERSONAL entity?
I could no more take comfort from THAT, than I could from
believing the stories of H.P. Lovecraft were true. (At least Cthulhu
would LEAVE YOU ALONE after killing you and the rest of the human race - simple OBLIVION, he didn't care enough to torture you post-mortem..!)
***And to think that some people are COMFORTED by Literalist Christianity. Hoo, boy...***

B-man

B-dawg wrote on Mar 4^th, 2007 at 11:06pm:


B-man, I'm certainly not christian at all though your OBSESSION with dwelling on does disturb me somewhat.

My advice: Just ignore it if it irks you so much. You seem to have very sound reasons many of which i agree with for rejecting it. Afterall a school of thought with christians is the 'creationist' view. I certainly do not adhere the western materialistic mechanistic view of the universe but it does have truths, such as that the earth has been in existence for an awfully longer time than the Bible professes that it has. That alone makes me laugh off literal christianity  

Also your statement that the universe is so cruel is only coming from your perspective which has been shaped by your experiences, your environment but most importantly the way you have chosen to feel about them. I would agree with you that it can be cruel at times but it also can be wonderful - (friendships, relationships, enjoyment of nature, long jogs, pleasant dreams, sports, late night comedy shows  ).
Heck I could have an attitude similar to yours with my life situation, I'm struggling to hold down employment, i've felt quite lonely and like noone understands me before, I'm truly appalled by all the conflict and crisis in the world and the fact that George W Bush is the leader of the 'free' world. But my research into spirituality, forming my own philosophies and perspectives on what the heck we're all doing here on this little blip in this vast vast universe has given me some kind of happiness and atleast most of the time this board renews my faith in humanity which sometimes seems all but lost when I watch the evening news.  

My advice to you Chumley just being friendly and all would be to embrace some of the more positive messages of pure unconditional love and acceptance on this board rather than the dogmatic bible bashing, which to be fair i don't see too much of on this board and most of the christians on here don't appear to follow the fundamentalist eternal darnation creed. If they did I doubt they'd come here.

Embrace doesn't mean I expect you to take it on board uncritically but try to push away all the paranoia about literal christianity (i know its hard!!) The universe from my spiritual perspective is certainly not cruel and heartless. YES it is a challenge! but what makes it seem cruel is ALOT of people live their lives based on fear and judgement, insecurity, insufficiency and greed. I'm trying to move away from this to live my life with free choice, free will, PUL, acceptance and allowance of others. It certainly isn't easy when you've been living with a fear based mentality most of your life. I don't pretend to be perfect or living with PUL and acceptance yet by any means. Of course I can't force you to change, have no power to do so and don't wish to do so - Free choice dictates that by your own will you will either embrace, reject or ignore the sentiments in my post.

To Chumley and to others alike: I just wish you luck in your journey, wherever it takes you.

Never say die,

Michael