LaffingRain wrote on Apr 8^th, 2007 at 11:36pm:

Thank you for your great words of wisdom! I will try your way of thinking about fire as a symbol of something else.

Yeah, I need to stop freaking myself out about this.. The only reason I do is because I feel for those people who are in this type of hell.. I think to much about it..

You are right about how I am coping with this by talking aloud to you great people about this! It does make me feel more secure and comfortable.

Also, I know what's in the past is in the past and God has already forgave me and forgotten about it.. Just like he/she/it forgives me all the time because sins are illusions that may us feeel like we are seperated from God.. But we never are... I know I'll go to a decent vibrational afterlife level because I try to see the good in everyone.. Plus, I have forgiven everyone that has harmed me and even these group of guys who jumped me for no reason.. Plus, I like to help others out.. Also, I don't like drama.. Yes, I have my so called evil to me.. But don't we all..

Sorry for rambling..

peace and thanks again laffingrain!! You are a swweet lady!!

Based upon a recent experice of mine, this subject becomes very interesting.  The short story is that fear makes visiting a hell far, far worse and I would advise against it.  If you take the experience with the "armor of observation", then visiting hell can be very educational.  Keep your heart filled with confidence and you will be well protected.

The long story:

I have a dream where I see a constructed creek filled to the top with water.  The water makes me uneasy because I imagine many things hidden beneath it, some are good and some I may not want to deal with at this time.  I know that the water holds many things to explore, but I do not wish to become overwhelmed just yet so I take off into the void and the scene ends.

Timeless seconds later, I envision a world of lava and caves.  Before I can explore the worlds, I wake up in a lava cave strapped into a torture chair with three disordered beings off to the side where I can not see them.  I am there in that body, and yet I am not.  The beings seem more complex than just evil beings but they simply want to torture me with a heating coil that closes over my body and bakes me alive.  They bring the device down upon my body and the body feels the pain and screams but in a strange paradox, I am observing my body in main and have no hurt bothering me.  The body is taking serious damage but I do not even care because according to this dream, that body is not me.  The body is fearful and afriad of falling into the lava right under the chair but I am actually enjoying the insight I have gained from the situation and have no care about what is happening.

Waking up from the dream, I am not afraid at all since I have just learned that I can not exactly burn in hell because I do not have a body that can be tortured.

"Berserk, read up on the holographic universe and you will see why I believe hell is not eternal.. Also, it tells us that hell is a state of being..  Basically, an illusion created by the subconscious mind.. So, we all know illusions can be seen right through and people will get out of their own hells from their guides."
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DaBears, in the real Bible, the Hebrew and Greek words for "eternal" merely mean "for an indefinitely long period."   So Hell may not be eternal.  But Hell is not simply a creation of our subconscious mind and y9u have no evidence pointing in that direction.  Like the Heavens, the Hells are a shared reality already created before the new spirits arrive.   The ability of new arrivees to create new reality is limited and highly localized.  That's the cnnsensus of the astral explorers.

[DaBears:] So, I don't need to go off of what some new agers say about hell.. I go off of the truth that was added to the bible (the thirdtestament)..
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The so-called Third Testament has no credibility whatsoever and is hardly an addition to the Bible.   It was channeled in Mexico in 1887.   Do you just accept any channled material uncritically if you like some its claims?   Why not step out of the New Age Ghetto briefly and read about the evil nature of some Mexican mediums?   Johanna Michaelson writes a devastating expose in her book "The Beautiful Side of Evil."  She and her family were heavily into channeling and she worked closely with a Mexican shaman who produced marvellous healing miracles.   Pachita surrounded herself with sacred symbols like crosses; so Johanna thought her healing work must be divinely inspired.  Only gradually did she realize that Pachita was an instrument of evil and when Johanna dared to explore conventional Christianity, Pachita's spirit control tried to kill her. 

DaBears, don't be a mindless cultist.  Read all sides of the important questions before you formulate your doctrines.  But why do I know you would'nt thnk of reading Johanna's book?  I hope I'm wrong!

Don

Check out www.victorzammit.com and you will see he all his proof about hell not being eternal and what not.. Plus, read his great book!
Note carefully: all knowledge/information can basically be divided into that which is scientific (or empirical, with which the scientific method is used to validate or to measure phenomena) on the one side and the unreliable subjective beliefs on the other side.

Another way of saying this is that science is “objective” – i.e. science has the substance to be independently substantiated – and all beliefs are “subjective” – beliefs do NOT have the substance to be independently substantiated and are regarded as personal beliefs. One most important problem with all beliefs (including skeptical beliefs) is that anything subjective, i.e. all religious beliefs and all skeptical beliefs, are themselves subject to complete invalidation.

The advantage of anything scientific or empirical is that given any empirical formula or principle, it can be repeated over time and space, and keeping variables constant obtains the same results. That is powerful and that is irrefutable. Where one can predict with accuracy, by way of repeating the same formula using the scientific method and obtaining the same results, it would be impossible to show that the formula is wrong.

It will follow that whenever there is an inconsistency between science (the empirical) and beliefs, inevitably, science (the empirical) prevails and will ALWAYS prevail over beliefs – even if beliefs have been around for thousands of years. It can never be any other way.

DaBears,

You reflect the same attitude I encounter with Fundamentalists when I suggest that just occasionally channeled material produces interesting insights.  They just dismsss it as demonic deception.  What I object to is putting all channeling in the same cultic box.   By the same token, DaBears, you are just as narrow-minded if you refuse to read respected works with differing viewpoints based on well-documented experiences.   So again I challenge you to read Johanna Michaelson's "The Beautiful Side of Evil" ore Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil."  Or else just stay in the New Age ghetto and read their propaganda.  You'll feel better about your quest if you infuse it with a modicum of  balance.  I have a huge New Age library, but read all sides of each issue.  

Don

P.S. I read Victor Zammit long before you did and found its articles superficial and unconvincing.   There are much better New Age advocates  than he.  The best is David Fontana.

Hey DaBears..I got a message for you this morning. I won't elaborate, just tell what I got, I think you will get it.

also I felt like we were talking this morning.   heres the message:
We are making all this up.  this thread will fade into oblivion. we will die and only our family will recall that we lived. (in most cases)

we are making up life as we go. therefore feel that freedom. therefore enjoy each day and make your day as you would have it be. we are so close to god we can breath in god. god is our breath of life. we can't miss. we are so creative, we are making all this up!

love, alysia

I know why you're here DaBears. I know you're in disguise. I know what a light you are.

The entire concept of eternal or everlasting punishment hinges primarily on a single verse of Scripture--Matthew 25:46. This is the only place in the entire Bible where we find these two words together AND only in some Bibles. There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.

The Greek form for "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is "kolasin aionion." Kolasin is a noun in the accusative form, singular voice, feminine gender and means "punishment, chastening, correction, to cut-off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit." "Aionion" is the adjective form of "aion," in the singular form and means "pertaining to an eon or age, an indeterminate period of time." (Note: the two words in many, not all translations become reversed changing the Greek into English.)

"Aionion," as shown above, is the singular form of the adjective of the Greek noun "aion." Many people unfamiliar with the Greek do not realize that the endings of the same word change (inflection) to indicate its mood, case, gender, etc. Therefore, "aionion" may appear with different endings. "Aionion, aioniou, aionios," for example, are all different inflections of the adjective form of the noun "aion."

The noun "aion" in Greek literature has always meant "an indeterminate period of time. It could be as short as the time Jonah spent in the belly of a fish (three days or nights), the length of a man's life, or as long as a very long age.

The Bible speaks of at least 5 "aions" and perhaps many more. If there were "aions" in the past. This must mean that each one of them have ended for they are now past! The New Testament writers spoke of "the present wicked aion" which ended during that very generation. Obviously, it was followed by another "aion"-- the "aion" in which we presently live. If there are "aions" to come, it must mean that this one we live in will also end.

There is a verse which says "the consummation of the aions" showing that each "aion" ends. So how can they be eternal?

There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)

Plainly, the Greek word "aion" transliterated "eon" cannot mean "eternal." A study into the Greek of the Biblical period and before will bear this out.

"Aionion" is the adjective of the noun "aion."

Since grammar rules mandate an adjective CANNOT take on a greater force than its noun form, it is evident that "aionion" in any of its adjective forms (ios, ou, on) CANNOT possible mean "everlasting" or anything remotely indicating eternity or unending time.

For example, "hourly" cannot mean "pertaining to days, weeks, months, or years. The word MUST mean "pertaining to an hour." Therefore, "aionion," the adjective form of the noun "aion" which clearly means a period of indeterminate TIME, CANNOT mean, "forever and ever, eternal, everlasting, eternity, etc) or other words which connote timelessness or unending ages.

Therefore, those many Bibles which do NOT contain the teaching of everlasting punishment or Hell are true to the original languages of Greek and Hebrew and those which teach everlasting punishment or Hell are false. Scholars are just as easily subjected to the "traditions of the elders" as the rest of us. It's time to let the original Greek and Hebrew languages of the Bible break down the traditions of men. For a list of the many English translations of the Bible that do NOT contain these pagan concepts and for an article explaining why the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does NOT have to be the same length as the life spoken of in that verse, write to us (Tentmaker--118 Walnut--Hermann, MO 65041) and ask for:

Matthew 25:46 Commentary

No-Hell Bibles
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We have MANY articles and books on this single most important subject, many of which may be downloaded for free. Click the links to Books and Topics to get an overview of available materials.

This is from www.christian-universalism.com.. I definately don't just go off of new age ghetto stuff...  I've read many books on chrisitan universalism... Also, please read books on the holographic universe and tell me I don't have clue.. Anything besides God, and love is an illusion.. Hell in itself is an illusion..