recoverer wrote on Mar 9^th, 2007 at 1:16pm:


 I do basically agree with you Recoverer, but again, to me its not so black and white.  

 There is an interesting Cayce reading about Moses, "For there has been the continued battle with those forces as Michael (the Archangel) fought with over the body of Moses.  He that leads, or would direct, is continually beset by the forces that would undermine."  2897-4

 I, like D.K. and apparently Moses, have had some personal experience with this as well.

 Also what you are not considering, and what you seem to be mostly reasoning from as far as i can tell, is from people's conscious minds and choices.    So, i'm a spiritual student on a spiritual path, i believe in light, love, and the Oneness of force, i believe love is the most powerful energy in the universe.  

 I try to live my beliefs, and for the most part i'm a pretty positive person, etc. etc.  BUT there is so much more to me and you than what our conscious mind and choices represents.   In you or me, about 1/10 of us is purely conscious depending on our degree of spiritual developement, the rest is unconscious.  Only those fully enlightened are fully conscious.   Are you, am i, is Bruce, is anyone here under this condition?

  There is negativity and negative patterns within us, that we aren't even fully aware of, there is much more to the Universe that we know of consciously.   It is arrogant to believe otherwise.   Like i said, i do basically agree with you, and in most cases that is probably the case, but in all, how the hell could i, you, or anyone here with limited knowledge and perception say for sure?   Perhaps because some want to believe in certain things?

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Grasping for straws here?   Well i would agree with Bruce on this specific usage of words.  I don't believe in "demons" and never said anything about demons and demonic possession.   I do believe that there are disincarnate human consciousnesses which sometimes try to cause trouble, but to me, these are nothing to worry about for the most part, except to those who are really weak in mind, morals, and/or body forces and/or who let them in through undue fear, concentration on dark forces,  too much alcohol or drugs,  etc.  

 What i do believe, is that there are indeeed some very powerful and dark E.T. energies out there, and occasionally they do and have had caused problems for humans.   We are protected from these here in Earth speaking of humanity as a whole being mostly at the child stage and because we need our collective hands to be held.

 But again, some very developed individuals for whatever reason, they ask for their hands to not be held anymore or it is just an automatic condition of their development, and when that happens, there can be some difficult and challenging things that can be experienced.  Perhaps like with what Cayce's guides said about Moses who was all in all a rather spiritually intune and powerful person though not perfected like Yeshua.  Are you spiritually beyond Moses?   Or like Yeshua, have you ever cast out "unclean" spirits?

 In any case, with all due respect to Bruce and to you as well, neither of you (nor i) knows everything.   Bruce's words are not the final words on the subject, and there are things even he isn't aware of.   There are beings both in the Earth and out of who are much more spiritually developed and aware/knowledgable than he.  I think he would probably definitely agree with this assessment, i think he is humble enough to consider that.

  I don't put you, or Bruce (again, neither my own as well), and both of your conscious awareness and depth of knowledge in the same category as Rosies or Cayce's guides.   I'm just barely humble enough to realize that there may be more going on that meets the eye at first, that much is possible in this Universe of freewill, and that the Universe and creation is much bigger than my limited conceptions of it, hence why i do listen to those whom i feel have a much greater conscious awareness of certain factors, like Rosie's guides or Cayce's guides for example.  

 Nor, unlike you, i do not automatically shoot down the beliefs and experiences of those like D.K. because i lack experience and/or knowledge in this area.  Your tone to her was a bit condescending and patronizing from the get go.

  Look at Rosie's guides for a moment, they obviously say that there are some powerful and intelligent, but not spiritually or lovingly developed E.T. groups out there, and that in the future its probable that they will cause some problems for humans as a whole.  

 But, that's speaking of humanity as a whole, and by that point, humanity will not be at the child stage anymore and we won't have our hands held, and we will have to deal with what we attracted.   But do you know for a fact, that all individuals within the Earth have not ever had problems with these?

  They are not discarnate humans who have little M-band control capacity, these are powerful and very intelligent minds who have evolved quite differently, and they do not have the best of intentions when it comes to humans or to the rest of creation.   Should anyone be scared because of this?   No, absolutely not, if you're not ready for them, then you will be protected by outside forces and even very spiritually developed folks like Moses of course receive help as well, and in his case the Archangel Michael was helping him and repelling those forces which would beset, undermine, an otherwise spiritually intune and positive person.  

Btw, there are concepts in say Rosies books, of which Bruce talks very little about, or even seems to disagree with at times.   For example, Rosie's guide Ah So and others, talk about the importance of diet, not eating too much meat, etc.

 Yet Bruce is known to have almost derided beliefs in being vegetarian, and the importance in not filling oneself up with meat.  He has basically said, its no big deal.  Hmm, wonder if he is a meat eater or not, and attached to same at all?   Just like Monroe was overly attached to his big juicy burgers that he loved so much and couldn't seem to give up.   Just like Edgar not being able to give up "eating so much like a pig" and unhealthily which his own source occasionally chided him about.  

 If i have to go with Bruce, or Ah So, i'm gonna go with Ah So 9 out of 10 times at least of being the more aware, accurate, and knowledgable source of info, and i highly, highly respect Bruce.   Bruce may even be at a similar spiritual attunement as Ah So spiritually speaking, but Bruce is a physical personality immersed within the physical and the physical, emotions, and ego tends to distort, it is the very place of distortion and limited perception.    And because of the sheer discordance and "loudness" of physical Earth energies, we all when we come in need to narrow our frequency reception band down a lot until we become fully Source realized, in order to just deal with these energies, and this of course limits our perceptions quite a bit.  Life here, is a gradual process of opening up ever more bit by bit.

recoverer wrote on Mar 9^th, 2007 at 3:16pm:


   Well i can sort of understand that sentiment, but i'm sure you believe in some things of which you have no proof or direct personal experience of?   I know i do at least.  I don't believe i have to personally experience something to know its true or not.  But i do have some experience with this particular subject of which i don't want to go too much into, because i don't want to focus on it specifically.  I felt some rather dark things about a particular E.T. 'race' and i kind of got inside the head of one of their "leaders" and it wasn't pretty and i don't want to go there again.  There is just enough light in this being to keep it "alive" and an invidividual co-herent consciousness, but the depth of darkness and inharmony was something i have never, ever felt before, not even when tuning into a human serial killer and their sickness.   

  I actually started writing a novel based on a dream of my Twin Soul/fiance, it was a dream about a future life wherein we were at the point that Rosies guides had shown her in the Akashic about a probable future war.   Becky was a incarnaed human, and i showed up later as a helpful "E.T."   

   When i started to write this book, it was like i was getting automatic downloads about this stuff, and at one point i started to delve into the Soul history of one of these dark but very powerful E.T. leader.   Not long after this, or just generally around the same time or so, i had a visit in-physical from an E.T. while i was in sleep paralysis.   I was inbetwen physical and etheric state of consciousness, and this being was examining me through and through via a mind process.   At least, i hope it was just sleep paralysis and not it keeping me paralyzed via mind/energy manipulation.

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  I have both books and am quite familiar with them and their concepts.  I have a pretty good memory about things i'm deeply interested in, and i don't remember this contradiction you are talking about.

   Perhaps when you have some time, you could more specifically point out the above words, concepts, etc?

   My understanding and overview of what Rosie's guides say, is that every Soul is unique, but that there are many Total selves which have the innate potential of many, many, many lifetimes within their collective energies as a Total self, or what Rosies' guides call a "Light being".   

   In some or many of these, these parts within the greater, collective self get projected out into space/time to experience the physical, as a individual entity and personality just as you or i now.   

  Not all Total selves choose to actually project all these parts of itself out into actual physical energies, but these remain more so "waves of probability" in a sense, within the Akashic or collective Soul energies of self.   

  We right now, have both attributes of a particle and of a wave.

  But, her guides, both Ah So and Radiant Lady, say that basically physical lifetimes as we perceive them, are "illusions of the Soul" and that the physical itself is not ultimatley real because its a projection or patterned reflection of what which is eternal and real--consciousness.

  Neither of these books say there are any "rules" or what not regarding incarnation.  There are no specific numbers of incarnations, but just ranges of the average.   It is not specifically said to my knowledge, but one can logically assume that the number of actual projected lifetimes within the Earth before complete graduation can vary a lot between each different Total self, but that there also may be averages.   

  It seems to me and i sense that many Total selves here, have had many projected lifetimes.  Probably the majority, but of course i'm sure the specific numbers may vary here and there.    

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  Yeah, to some extent.   Mostly i see a lot of agreement between many of the more major and general concepts.   Bruce's teachings about a "Disk" are no different really than Ah So's teachings about a Light being.

  But i have noticed a difference between a philosophy found in the Monroe/Moen info and teachings, and between Rosies and Cayce's teachings.    The former, seem to say that physical lifetimes and this whole incarnation thing was somehow a necessity or advantage in the spiritual evolution of the Disk/I-There/Souls. 

  The Cayce and Rosiland guides info, suggest that it wasn't ever necessary or important, an advantage, etc. to begin with, but once the process was begun on behalf of individual Total selves, that it had to be worked through until full attunement to Source again. 

   These seem to hint that it was the result of Freewill choice on part of some Souls to separate from the Creator to become Gods of their own but without working through and with Source and its ways.   

  Cayce's guides call it spiritual "error" on part of some of us originally.  His source said that a group of these essentially created what we now know of as the physical energies, and that Retriever Souls came in to help with the situation but many of them became stuck as well as the more innately rebellious ones who started this all.

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  Did you not read what i wrote earlier?   I in a sense agree and agreed with you.   But, what exactly is a Soul, what exactly is Mind, what exactly is the body, personality, and physical forces?   Where does one end and the other begin? 

  These are all different, but they are all connected and interweave and blend in with one another.   Affect one, you affect the other.   The Soul ultimately cannot be directly harmed and controlled by another being, that i do agree with.   The Creator wisely made it so.

  However we as physical personalities are much, much more complex than that, there are many systems of energies that go to make up you or i, physical personalities for example.   This is what we are talking about!  Get the right concept and keep it in perspective, don't get so theoretical and intellectual about it.   If it happened to you instead of D.K., you would not be so nonchalent about it all.

We are not talking about a Soul floating around in the nonphysical surrounded by those of like energies/wavelengths, we are talking about incarnate humans whose lives, emotions, physical body, etc. can be negatively affected and in a quite a damaging way.   Harm is harm, suffering is suffering, no matter where exactly it is directed, and our personalities are connected to our Soul force. 

  Do you not think that this has its influence on the Soul?   Cayce's guides once said, that the carnal and destructive actions, thoughts, etc. of a physical person become the very scars on the Soul--hence the Soul is indirectly but negatively influenced.   These interprenetrate each other, one affects the other, its all relative. 

  I completely agree, another consciousness cannot blast apart the very fabric of our consciousness and being, nor can our pure Soul force become an automaton of others.  We can choose and lack light so much, that we ourselves can break down the coherent vibrational pattersn of our consciousness and thus become "non entities" in the individual, conscious sense, but others cannot do that to us.  But this is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about examples like D.K. has shared and which other people have gone through.   

  Ok, let me ask you this to put it in perspective.   Say you and your guides, council, etc. come up with a Life plan for you.   This life plan does not originally involve being physically tortured by another person.

   Another person goes way off their life plan and decides to capture and torture you, on a spiritual level, your guidance might try as hard as hell to keep you out of this situation once they see the possibility of it, but say you're not as consciously in touch with guidance, etc., and ignore the signs or what not.

  Accidents occasionally happen, just as they have happened within the very forces of Creation itself--most is order and harmony, but not all.    So, you're down there in the deep dark basement having your body and psyche torn apart bit by bit, until you as a personality and mind operating within same, become naught but a babbling and completely fractured and insane being because of the damage you have been through. 

  Sure, your Soul isn't directly being damaged or controlled, but Jesus H. Christ, what good does that do you in the meantime?   And, after you die, it might take quite awhile for you, the real you--your Soul/consciousness to recover from this traumatic experience, heck normally you might not have become "stuck" after dieing, but because of what happened and what was forced onto you by another who did not respect the freewill of you or others, you do become stuck and for quite awhile from a linear time perspective, all the while still suffering.   

  It's suffering we are talking about, and there are many ways to suffer, and believe it or not, there are beings and consciousnesses out there who get off on others suffering.  Sick yeah i know, completely agree, God how i wish all of Creation was consciously love and light, and we all knew our Oneness with each other, but since Freewill is involved, this is not the case. 

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  I agree, and good luck on that process not that you need any good luck in that.   My sense of you, is that you are a wise and perceptive man beyond the average, but with tendencies to being a little stubborn in some respects.