Let me preface my remarks by reassuring posters of my conviction that astral exploration motivated by unselfish concerns is usually very safe and I am curently trying to develop an OBE talent. That said, I don't know anyone who has read the possession case histories in Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" without being convinced of the reality of supernatural evil.  Those on this site who scoff at the demonic dishonestly wimp out by refusing to read Martin. 

My Uncle G. was a pastor who performed an exorcism in a house.  He left my cousin E (now a psychiatist) with his mother in the car.  The moment the exorcism was completed, E started screaming relentlessly and his entranced eyes rolled up in his head so that only the whites were visible.  Only the fervent prayers of his parents spared E from possession.  E recently told me that he was just 2 or 3 at the time and his only memory of this incident is that of being protectively cradled in Jesus' loving arms.

My brother D is now a doctor in Colorado.  When I was 21, my brother (then 16). and I were watching TV hockey on Saturday night.  Suddenly, D went into a trance.  He told me he had been given the name and exact location of EB, a young man who was possessed.   D. immediately hopped on a bus for a 7 miles ride to the coffee house.  Upon arriving, a stranger approached him and said, oddly, "You're here on a special mission, aren't you?"   After a while, EB showed up with a gang of thugs and started attacking patrons.   D. confronted him and boldly proclaimed, "EB, God has shown me that you're possessed and has sent me to exorcise you."  This risky declaration was greeted with scorn, but D. suddenly reached out and gently touched EB on the forehead. Instantly, EB fell like a rock and began frothing at the mouth and writhing like a serpent.  AFter a few minutes of this, EB lay still and meekly said, "Thank you."  His gang members were so scared they immediately expressed interest in converting to Christianity, but their conversions proved to be rather shallow.  I have since met EB and marvel at that miraculous winter evening. 

If you are suspicous of Christian examples, then consider the OBE experience of New Ager, Robert Monroe.  Three sections of this site are devoted to his books.  I am quoting from Monroe's "Journeys Out of the Body:"

"It is a gray-black hungry ocean where the slightest motion attracts nibbling and tormenting beings...Could this be the borders of Hell?  It is easy to conclude that a momentary penetration of this nearby layer would bring `demons' and `devils' to mind as the chief inhabitants.  They seem subhuman,  yet have an evident ability to act and think independently (121)."

"I was attacked by something.  It had no apparent personality, nor was I able to see it.  However, I knew this one was incredibly vicious with an intent to `take' something that was mine which first required getting rid of `me.'...It was a no-holds-barred affair, silent, terrifyingly fast, and with the other seeking out any weakness on my part...The thing fighting me seemed to move from nerve center to nerve center, and some of the holds and pressures it applied were excruciating.  I knew that if I did not fight back, I would lose, and losing seemed as vital as losing existence.  I then began to fight back with equal intensity, savagely and with desperation.  The thing fighting me knew every weak spot, and used them.  We fought for what seemed like hours, and gradually I felt I might truly lose....Still fighting, I steered the battle in the direction of my physical   When we were very close and directly over it, I stepeed back `in' (142-143)."

OBE adept, Robert Bruce, shares his experience of attempting to exorcize a grievously possessed young child.  Bruce makes the mistake of inviting the demon to possess him instead.  He thought he could easily dispose of it later.  He was wrong.  Twice in the middle of the night he found himself in a deep trance at the base of his son's bed with a sharp knife in his hand poised to murder his son.   It took all his mental focus to resist this coerced murder.  Finally, he decided that he was too dangerous and fled to the wilderness, thinking he might die there.   But he was finally given the grace of deliverance and returned home with a greater respect for the power of evil. 

Don't get hung up on the identity of these evil entities.  Focus instead on their power and potential for harm.

Don

Berserk wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 6:10pm:

I don't get why God would create such terrible entities... It makes no sense to me..

Our theology or philosophy must be grounded on the evidence for how things really are, not on how we wish them to be.  A synthetic interpretation may be possible which makes sense of what we formerly deemed intolerable.  My synthetic interpretation would take too long to explain here.  But consider the following simple rationale.

Free will requires pressure from contrary inclinations.   The stronger our inclinations towards evil, the more sacred our free chioce of the good, despite this contrary pressure.  So the choice of pure unconditional love derives its value from the lure of the opposite choice.  Thus, God does not create these evil entities.  They create their own negative orientation by their free choices.  Mythological speculation on how this schism from God happened is futile.  The popular myth of Lucifer is not a biblical concept.  The poetic image of the fall of Lucifer refers to the fall of an Assyrian king, not to the fall of Satan.

Some of the most important questions are thes simplist.   Keep asking your basic  questions!

Don

An egotistic God?  What an incoherent notion!  As the Creator, God has no ego.  Rather, God is the ground of all egos and all consciousness.  As for the hope of oblivion, well, you'd better get busy trying to refute all the evidence from OBEs, NDEs, and ADCs for an afterlife because that evidence suggests that only a few can ever avail themselves of that option.

Don

recoverer wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 9:05pm:

Now, that sounds more reasonable!! From reading Emanuel Sweedenborg's writtings he talked about the beastly people he saw actually were humans!! They were so evil in their times on earth, that they degenerated into grotesque forms, showing truly how sinister they were inside.. I've always figured the people who got possesed were only possesed by an evil spirit, not  a demon... Because former times using an ouija board the spirits would spell out their names and threaten us.. I never have touched an ouija board since than..

So, what were those hells like?? Did you see any beastlike people?? BTW you are one brave soul to go venture into those realms!

That shows how forgiving God must be, to even let souls who turn their backs on him and still give them chances to go to heaven! That seems more like the God I've pictured him to be...

Here's my take on it, Alex.
If Christian Hell and "demons" exist... well then, this is one
SH!THOLE of a universe.
If I end up being tortured by them after I die... then I'm just
sh!t in a sh!thole ruled by a Holy Sh!t, right?
So maybe I won't care.
Meanwhile, here on earth, I won't debase myself by putting any
stock in these beliefs. Alex, think about who ORIGINATED these
ideas. SHEEP-HERDING IGNORAMUSES. People about one step
above CAVEMEN!!! People who didn't understand nature or its
vagaries (lightning, thunder, wind, storms, ect.) so they sought
to appease nature, by GROVELING to it... just like they appeased
the bullying alpha males who typically ran their tribes. (Notice
how the Judeo-Christian god is nothing more and nothing less, than a bullying alpha male? That ain't no coincidence, Alex.)
Groveling, is what it's ALL about. (Ya dig what I'm sayin'..?)
So what's to worry? In the end, you'd be getting punished for
using the BRAIN "God" gave you, and then ordered you NOT
to use. Can you imagine Reality being THAT absurd, Alex?
I hope not..!

B-man

P.S. What WOULD be so awful about oblivion? Imagine the deepest
sleep you've ever had, and no waking up bone-tired and having
to drag your a$$ out of bed. Doesn't sound too bad to me..!
[/quote]
I see what you're saying!! If, we get tortured for using our brains to not follow the rest of the sheep who worship an egotistical God! I don't think that deserves punishment at all!! I don't view God that way but c'mon who would worship a egotistical God who will fry you if you don't worship him or lead a perfect life... If, you ask me people like that who think God is like that are just blinded by their faith! That's why I won't listen to their views on God or hell anymore!

BTW that sounds pretty good about oblivion.. You don't have to worry about hell or demons!
*****************
For an even better demolition of "Hellfire and Damnation", google
for "Robert G. Ingersoll" and read some of his stuff. I believe his
entry on Wikipedia has links to a number of e-texts of his writings.
He, and Bertrand Russell were an eye-opener for me, YEARS ago
when I was in high school. (Saved me a lot of grief that would have
come from believing that "Turn or Burn" garbage bombarding us at every turn in America these days...)

B-man

Chumley I yahooed and read Robert G. Ingersoll's take on the Bible.  Eeish .. the sense I get from his writings is he's not very spiritual and is following the History of Crime through his eyes.  If one had to read the Bible with a deeper understanding one will find there are layers of messages.  I just get a very one dimensional feeling from his opinions.

He obviously hasn't had a close encounter with a demon (as Don writes above) in the way he relates God to being a demon.  The word 'religion' meaning covering says a huge amount and this covering may relate to the Bible.  In my opinion it is not covering God as a demon - it is covering 'for those who have ears listen'.

If we read Isaiah, to me, it seems exactly what is happening in the Middle East today.  The enemy is known to God, God knows how the enemy operates.  (I don't want to sound melodramatic saying this) but I believe the very demons themselves need Christ, and RS talks about this.

I think Robert Ingersoll is following the wrong god - the god of the dead and not the Living God.

Well, my thoughts.
*****************
So I guess I'd better get started observing the behavior of
dogs, then -?
The better to master my groveling and boot-licking skills.
TURN OR BURN!!! Yeppers, Either I gots to become a "Bride
of Christ" (so Jesus can pork my heiney in "Heaven"?) or I'se
GOIN' DOWN...
Righto?

B-man

P.S. Ingersoll LOATHED war, barbarism, and cruelty. If that
doesn't count as "spiritual", then what the heck does? (I guess
groveling, genuflecting, and babbling formulaic prayers is
YOUR answer..?)