B-man,

You can't simply choose your beliefs.  I get irate when ministers tell a seriously ill person that they have to believe for their healing.  True faith is divinely imparted. Put less piously, beliefs sneak up on you when you explore new ideas and experiences.  The same is true for new desires.   That is why I keep nagging you to read a book, preferably Hoeard Storm's "My Descent into Death."  Why him?  Because he seems to have been very similar to you in his prior attitudes.   I suspect that Storm's book would change your whole life.  Why not read it and prove me wrong?

dDon
***********
O.K. Don,
Is it available online in an e-text form?
I wouldn't want to be seen browsing in
the metaphysical section of Barnes and
Noble. (Someone I know is BOUND to see
me...)
Plus, I don't want to blow any of my money
on it.

B-man

Go to near-death.com and press Howard Storm's name under "Natable NDEs" and you'll get a taste of what his NDE was like.  But that is no substitute for the book which goes into the experience in much greater detail.  If you read the book, You'd discover how angels repeatedly save him from certain death and guide his spiritual journey. Above all, you'd miss the chapters devoted to Storm's long conversations with Jesus and the angels.  I think much of that teaching session might appeal to you.   But start with the website if you don't want to spend the money.

Don
*****************
Ironically, I can ALMOST see myself becoming a Christian of
sorts, Don.
Specifically, a non-denominational Christian of the ANNIHILATIONIST
stripe. (I would never become an "Eternal Torture" Christian, as this concept is due largely to Plato and the Byzantine imperial edicts of 553 A.D. enthroning Eternal Torture as official Church Doctrine. You CAN'T deny this... also the writings of Tertullian are a major cause of the Eternal Torture doctrine, and Tertullian was a certifiable NUTJOB, just
like Eusebius (another Eternal Torture stumper) was a no-good LIAR.)
Why do I say this? Well, there is quite likely an afterlife as our default after-death state. But if there is NO "God", then who/what do I appeal to for soul-annihilation, if I hate the experience? No "God" might leave me saddled with an unwanted immortality sentence - just as surely as the vicious, vile demon-god of "Eternal Torture" Christianity would!!!!!
Just to show you, I'm willing to look at both sides of an argument to see
which one better serves my interests...

B-man

[quote author=Berserk link=1169264458/15#18 date=1169511398]Brendan,

Don't confuse the distortions of later church fathers with the more ethical revelations of Jesus' and the first-century apostles.  Have you read my thread on Jesus' role in soul retrievals yet?   My further development of that thread will address your concerns.  Also, when are you going to respond to Howard Storm's NDE, if only to the online summary of certain aspects of it? 

Don
*****************
Actually, I did read a synopsis of it (for example, how the "demons"
were driven off by his prayers, ect.)
Which brings us to a big question, Don.
How much of Howard Storm's report reflects an OBJECTIVE REALITY
that is THE SAME FOR EVERYONE, regardless of their beliefs?
Howard Storm was an atheist, true. And like most American atheists,
he was raised (and thoroughly steeped) in a Judeo-Christian cultural mileau. Indeed, Howard Storm was most likely NOT RAISED as an atheist, but became one in SPITE of his religious upbringing, quite possibly incurring a deep-subconscious level feeling of GUILT in the process ("Honor thy father and thy mother" being a deeply adhered-to more among ALL MANKIND, whether or not it is CONSCIOUSLY honored!) Had Howard Storm been a Indian atheist (and thus, the god(s) he denied as an atheist, were HINDU gods) might he have been treated to a Hindu-flavored NDE, rather than a Christian-flavored one?
Perhaps he felt subconsciously guilty about his atheism, and thus his guilt played out in a vision of Christian "Hell."
And as I've seen with NDE reports, they are indeed subjective and depend on the experiencer (with the exception of a few universals, like the "tunnel" and the "light.") So Howard Storm's colorful numinous adventure might have a lot more to do with Howard Storm himself, than any personal, objective "out there" deity (or the dwelling place of said "deity.")

B-man
P.S. Why don't Tibetan Buddhist monks report a Christian reality, in their out-of-body explorations, ect..? Christian monks do so in moments of "ecstasy", it is true... but why don't Buddhists do so also, when experiencing virtually the same phenomenon? (Subjectivity, my
friend...)

Quote:


Chumley, I believe you know the answer to this one.. I'm guessing you just want to hear Don or someone else say it.  People of other religions have experiences influenced by their own personal beliefs regarding the specific religion they follow.  Buddhists experience Buddha and the Buddhist afterlife just as Christians experience Jesus and the typical Christian afterlife.  Of course, there are sometimes exceptions.   But this is because we create our reality, both here on earth and in the "afterlife".  This is why NDEs involving Jesus, Buddha, or any other god and particular religious afterlife experiences must be taken with a grain of salt(sometimes even a whole bag of salt), and can in no way prove one of these religions to be "the way it really is."  Reality is based on our individual perceptions and is not the same for any two people.  The Buddhist's reality in the afterlife is not the same as the Christian's reality, and because these realities are shaped by strong beliefs and preconceptions, they cannot be objective experiences.