Thanks Chuckles.

Doc wrote:

"I have heard it said that most people, when they cross over end up in Focus 27, or the free area of heaven.  I am not sure, from what I see in the physical world why this would be so.  Belief systems are rampant throughout the world.  Hells (self created) should be overflowing.  So, how does one dive down into the earth plane, go down a dark path away from God, and say it was pre-planned?  It defies logic, and there should be some divine logic to all of this."

I have wrestled with these same thoughts Doc.

I agree that there should be some divine logic to all of this... The only thing that I could conjure up with regards to these puzzling thoughts that you have posed would be a methodology of divine justified illogical logic. -- Seems reasonable?

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

well if this helps any, my stepfather, my sister, my late husband, these and others upon transitioning were told to go and make amends with those still physical, in order for their souls to progress on the other side. Not one of them I've come in contact did not have at least one guide with them in this chore.
if they could achieve forgiveness for whatever they had done, they were circumventing karma and what that implies. I didn't ask them about reincarnation, although I do know a spirit who wants to become my grandchild whom I have known in my life before they died.

the point is it's time to educate everybody about ceasing to make karmic ties right here and now, through study of how we do that and how we undo it.

btw, people in hell, they do not realize they are in a hell. seems normal to them.
u can see why getting their attention is necessary to offer a new choice.

read Bruce's account of the phychologist who liked to make others quarrel so he could entertain himself this way. he was in a bst of one-up-manship, where everyone pulled little tricks on each other. but since he did this same thing in his lifetime here, he just continued on the other side tricking people into fighting with each other. By no means did he consider this hell. it was just life as usual.
heck, he might still be there but Bruce and Rosalie, I think, they attempted a retrieval on him.  They have to get tired of where they are at before they can move out of what they have made. sooner or later, human consciousness notices a repetitive pattern and they ask for help which is standing by.

Alysia and Lovelight- Fear is the killer, you're right. I can tell you the drug side, since I was initially a drug sotted hippie. By intending to "see God" and vigorously practicing appropriate pranayamas etc, plus a liberal dollop of psychedelics, the drug user can effectively depart the everyday world and reach a point of emptiness in which the ego is sufficiently suppressed that there's just a viewpoint looking at God from a partially merged perspective. Then, because the lifestyle does not support that knd of ealization, it is lost. Further, it cannot be regained by taking more drugs (although all of us have tried) because it is a state that lies beyond definition. Until we can live in a manner that our lifestyle alone brings that realization back, it's gone forever. That's when people start worrying, getting confused and anxious, and they start looking for comfortable alternatives, like just "getting high". That's the danger of drug use. However, the other approach is to take the experience to heart and use it as a goal for the future, changing life so that it becomes closer and closer and one day we can work up to that same level again. That's a more difficult trip, but it leads in the proper direction if we let it. Forty years after the fact, I'd say that it has been a wonderful trip.

Doc - I don't think anyone rationally sets out to be a total a$$hole. My feeling is that it is a social problem, especially arising out of limited options as a child. We are limited in the places that we can go because of the structure of the world, and an error at one point becomes a cause of problems at another point.

On the assumption that God worked within logic to create the cosmos, in the very first instant of creation, all the relationships and linkages for all time and eternity were logically implied, and began unfolding, expressng their nature. This is like a city in which all the roads and sidewalks have been cast into concrete. We are going across town from our birthplace to our future, a sort of exploration. The pathways are all completed, but we choose the various walkways and roads over which we will pass acording to what we have learned. If it seems that some bypass is more interesting, we might give it a try. (Eg: I tried the drug route.) Then we find ourselves in a new location from which to make the next choices etc. (In my case this was to become an addict and focus on gratifications, or become a yogi and focus on ending dependencies on gratifications.)

If a person has experiences that suggest physical gratification and violence are the way to go, that person will move toward those pathways, hanging out with people of similar type, and acting in that manner. Similarly, if a person had chosen pornography and gross sexuality and aggression as a useful path, there is a tendency to move closer to that kind of people, and to share experiences with them. We make choices, receive social support and gravitate toward the extremes of the various ways of living. With a total social support system that favors sexual excesses, such as clitoridectomy of women in the Middle East, then it seems that what we are doing is actually normative and proper, as we force people to undergo such things. In exactly the same way, a person caught up in macho power, aggression, hatred as a way of self expression, and who feels that sexual aggression is normative, will tend to act out by sexual aggresion, raping and sodomizing by force. All the social supporters will cheer this on, folie en groupe.

To the degree that we simply act out of the social control imposed on us, we do not exhibit freedom. One of the primary purposes of education is to bring new norms to light, and to broaden the parochial vision of narrow little minds. As they expand, narrow minds discover a wealth of new options, and they become the creative sources of a new social order. Even if the new social order is only a few percent better than before, this overall tendency means that we can free ourselves. When we move to the other side of the collection of struggling beings, we find the expanding wavefront of reality blooming forward into emptiness - this is the cutting edge of manifestation of the Creator, guided by the same creative logic as in the Big Bang, and thus we become the means by which the will of God is projected, through our own faculties, and in so doing, we are totally free. (Freedom does not imply that we can act illogically - to expect that you could hop out of an airplane without a parachute would be jumping to an unsupported conclusion. You'd go limping away with an invalid inference.

From a purely logical viewpoint, it looks to me like once we are in a valid place, our karma finally run down, and once we live logically by following a path in accord with the universe, then we sort of become part of the manifestation of the creative impulse, and begin to merge into the nature of God - since this is an infinite process, things just keep getting better until we make the next jump and abandon indivuation, at which time we merge back into God, except for a point of identity to which our history is attached. As someone told me, "I feel like a drop of water in a bucket of water. I'm still the drop, but I'm also all the water in the bucket." That's sarvastarka samadhi. Nirvastarka samadhi is total Oneness.
PUL
d

thanks Dave and Kathy, seems like perfect self expression from you two and some very useful thoughts. I like it.

I would like to talk to Doc briefly of a few retrievals I did of criminals because it appears you are struggling with a conflict that something quite unfair or illogical is going on in our universe.  also a part of me studies forensics shows and I believe this part of me works these areas that I'm not completely privy to consciously; sort of like an apprentice in the justice system, maybe a future life in the making. to support my conjectures, a friend of mine is already planning a future dive he did say...he seems to be more aware than myself of spiritual matters, but I've met him obe enough to believe in him and what he says as very trustworthy.

briefly, there is always an agreement between perpetrator and victim, yet this cannot be revealed in C1 until after the deed, or lesson incurred is all over with, otherwise you are correct, nobody would sacrifice themself on the alter of the earth plane to endure suffering, pain, illness, rape and pillage, murder, etc.

Earth must remain for now an experiment and a land of opportunity for soul growth and overcoming those challenges but there are definetely perks here such as the generation of love, the good times ideally outnumber the not so good times.

as to the retrieval of the crooked ones, and we are all a little crooked or we could hardly be coming to a perfected planet; we'd simply not fit in, and as they say, the good die young.

I retrieved a rapist amid many guides standing by to assist me if need be. As I was engaged with retrieving him I was receiving info about how he thought all the while. I had to understand him first before I could accomplish what I'd come there for.

Rape is not a sexual crime I learned, but a an issue with his feelings of helplessness due to his upbringing. His mother I learned had made him feel that he was not manly and so this led to his crimes to prove he had control over women and was indeed proving to himself that his mother was wrong. I submit this to show that a study of the criminal mind is necessary for retrieval in these kinds of cases. just putting them in jail does little to reform society and sometimes they do succeed in getting good counseling.
once I as the retriever could see how his mind ticked my fear was subsiding so that I could understand and bring PUL into the situation which caused the successful retrieval.
my guides instructed me simply to agree with him that he was in control and that he was a man and not the weakling he had been led to believe by his mother, a very prominent person in his life. he had carried his programming over from childhood.

it seems that our programming would start in childhood and therefore it is with the children that we can build a better society so that they are not raised with the wrong ideas. I too accepted my mother's opinion that I was not supposed to be born, therefore I was in the way. I had the challenge of learning to love myself despite I was being told I was not lovable. One tends to obsorb ideas as a child, and even mature people accept fallacious collective ideas as fact. and so we can go crooked from that standpoint, and sometimes other lives will infiltrate, yet i hardly believe that any karma is set in stone to be played out as we are not robots here and there's so much assistance on the other side, if we could but just bring ourselves to ask, from a kneeling posture for what is readily available, even though we are a godless society right now, love never entirely disappears.

so we are not going to solve the worlds problems on a board. but one by one as retrievers reaching for understanding we can do our part.

love, alysia

Good question Matthew and great replies.  Rob, I agree the world is a beautiful place and those moments with loved ones are truly beyond any words.

I do think we have a choice through free-will whether we choose to be good or bad (basically) I reckon once we are born into Earth we do forget why we came.  Our extraversion spirits have been condensed into a small seed and have the mesmerising influence of gravity and even the Moon to contend with - everything becomes dreamy and vague.

This is why attaining spiritual knowledge is important because it is to awaken (not change merely awaken) one out of the cloud of Maya.  (someone made a good post on Maya here)   I do believe hypnosis (contrary to the term) is a way to awaken one out of this dream world.  After reading Dave's website I believe Dave is a leader in this field.

The reason why we come in the first place?  I think to have a good look at ourselves at what we have become through our past life experiences.  And I think God wants us to come to him willingly, we need within ourselves to make this choice,  our relationship with God is not forced it comes through free-will and that is the highest compliment we may give to God, I think. 

The experiences we learn in Earth and our choices grows our spirits so much and if we grow in the physical we can imagine how much we grow in the spirit. 

I think people who make the wrong choices (the baddies that is) have been easily influenced into complatency and they will find their path back to God will take much longer.

Greetings Rob

You wrote a very moving post and it is all very well saying; choose between good and bad and that is it problem solved when the reality is at grassroots stuck in a cycle of abuse and mis-treatment.  Both the abused and the abuser are crying out for help.

I think you have addressed the problem with a senstivity and an understanding which is admirable. It is difficult to understand why one would choose to be in a situation of abuse or choose to become an abuser (as Matthew pointed out in the beginning of this thread) In the understanding; an abused child overcomes the adversity and infact becomes stronger through it plus the reincarnation explanation for both the abused and abuser to learn love is a truth.

It is said unfortunately pain and hurt is the only way one learns deeply because if one had a constant tap of love and light and joy and happiness one would become complacent and not seek any higher.

But child abuse is horrific; it is a bitter pill to swallow in every society and surely this cycle may and must be broken out of.  Surely it is wrong to say oh they learning a lesson and tough takkies to them.  No, I agree Rob it is the value society places upon its citizens and how society cares for it's young, old and mentally disturbed.

Prisons, although do give time for reflection, cannot be of much help for an abuser because immediately they feel cast aside, locked away and on top of their mental problems they have to cope with this sigma plus life inside prison which surely creates even more of a mental problem.

And maybe now we should say; it is not a spiritual truth to become a child abuser it is a mental problem? And with this comes the question is the abuser being allowed to be used by unseen influences (but we won't go into that now because this needs to be defined further)  But if a person who is an abuser has a mental problem from passed unsolved issues the clearing up of these unsolved issues will lead him/her into a better frame of mind.

How does society and the law tackle this?  It is a long road but I would suggest each person who is found guilty of child abuse (or any other crime rape etc) should be put into the professional hands of an hypnotherapist who will take the person into regression to the cause of the blockage and breakdown of that person's mental health (thanks Dave for this clarity)  Prison's should be changed into 'resting rooms' and here guidance through creative stimulation should be given -i think learning astrology could be a positive start for someone to feel not outside of the world but part of the world - but mainly rest and positive motivation should be given.  Here the whole identity of prison will change into a 'spa' attitude rather.

People in society can help by recognising any abuse which is going on around them - offer friendship to the abused and lead them to the law which has has made the necessary changes and is ready to help in a compassionate manner and get to the root of the problem with professional psychologist instead of casting the problem aside.

Well, I am not qualified in suggesting this but if I was President I would do this and hope they do.

Your comments and others will be welcome Rob.

My respects to you.
Caryn



 

Hi Rob and everyone. I hope we can talk frankly at least I think we can.

these are difficult subjects but we think about it nonetheless. and thank u again for your encouraging words to me Rob.
I believe we can solve a lot of problems of society with crooks and rapists, etc, a great percentage of crimes by going back to family values where the caretaker in the family is perhaps a grandmother, instead of putting her into a resthome.  getting off track... what I mean is not all abused children will be abusers, but the less that children are abused the better chance they have of contributing whatever their unique gift to society is, as they won't be carrying around a chip on their shoulder, so they can concentrate on their school and work better.

but maybe forums like these can help? where people can gain some more awareness?

I can hope for that, that at least we started to teach a child to ask for help and this does help that they know they will finally be listened to. then the problem is the vigilantees spring up and start ripping children out of homes left and right for the wrong reasons..so sigh....I think more prayer is good.

I knew a pervert once. the problem was where he came from in certain southern sectors  molestation of children was happening more than it wasn't and so the general consensus was to keep it hidden instead of bring it to the public awareness.things are changing though.   also he had it worked out in his mind that he himself was as innocent as a child, and attracted to that innocense to usurp it, join with it, rather than be a guidance factor to the child, and this is distortion or perversion of mental area. by identifying, by loving the victim in distorted fashion.
Jeffrey D. the same, by eating the victim, he claimed to be giving them eternal life.

you see the sickness is spiritual too. but we have to be able to look at them closely, what they are thinking and then we can straighten it out, but so few of us are really good psychologists who also believe in god. which to have such a belief, to me, just means we have to believe that good will prevail in the long run, and hopefully the short run if we pray hard enough.