I believe it may be fear itself, old chum....fear is a strange taskmaster and takes over the imagination more quickly than people realize....a worthy opponent, in my opinion.  It provides the boundaries in worst case scenarios. But usually, the walls are false ones, and the jailer doesn't ever seem to be around when the victim decides to walk out of the prison.

I think people are afraid of who they might be if they really let go and became their "highest self" because, after all, we are capable of so much when we really believe we can do it. What a responsibility that is, and the greatest among us always know exactly how huge it really is.

love, blink

Chumley -

The problem with just wanting things to be the way you want them is that objective reality may be different from and impose upon your attempt at creating a subjective reality.  In other words, God either exists objectively or he doesn't, irrespective of whether or not you like / want that idea to be true.  If you believe that gravity does not exist, or tell yourself 'I really never liked this idea of gravity', and step off the edge of a building, won't you still fall?  In the same way if you believe that God doesn't exist and live a life of selfishness because of that foundational belief, won't you still suffer negative consequences?

Christians who talk about hell are not doing it to oppress others / make them feel bad (or at least many Christians aren't).  If hell wasn't an option for people in the afterlife then there would be no reason to mention it.  Again, it doesn't matter as much whether or not we like the idea if it still exists.  And if hell exists, then people should be warned about it.  If they don't want to listen, then that is their prerogative, and they are allowed to make that choice.  Make no mistake; the choice is between selfishness and worship of what one wants / desires for him / herself and loving others - serving others and relishing the joy involved.  It would be unkind to not mention hell if one is a Christian.  If I knew you were going to get hit by a car tomorrow at such and such a time, and I don't mention it, am I helping or hurting you?  You may not want to hear it, or feel that I am opressing you and go on your way, again that's your prerogative.

If you don't believe that God exists objectively (for real outside of someone's thinking), then please explain the following:

(1) The universe had a beginning (and therefore is not eternal).
This beginning created space and time for our (at least) four dimensions.
Every event has a cause.
There must be a cause of this beginning of the universe and its spacetime that is outside its constraints, something that is beyond space and time.

The idea of a God or (or Gods for that matter) provides a solution to these statements.  Not necessarily the Christian God, but at least a creative force that is able to make a decision, and is powerful enough to create space, time and the expansion of the universe.

(2)  The biblical accounts of the claims of Jesus about God.  How does one address this?  Jesus claimed to be the incarnation of God and his will.  So was he lying, delusional, a literary creation, or telling the truth?  These are the only logical options.

(3) The fine tuning of the universe.  There are many physical constants and initial conditions of the physical universe that were set precisely in such a way so that life could exist.  If this were not so life would have never developed.  If you don't believe me you can check out 'the anthropic principle' on the web and see that there are many.  I teach physics and can tell you the chances of all of this happening by chance is ridiculous - its an improbable constant or initial condition out of a limitless choice of alternatives, multiplied by hundreds if not thousands of these settings.  Its much more reasonable (and a simpiler, more comprehensive theory) to say that an incredibly intelligent being decided to do this.

Lastly, I want to say, if God exists, and the Christian notion of God is largely true, then hell exists based on the teachings of that notion of God.  I am not a literalist when it comes to these things, I tend to think more in the lines of Berzerk.  In any case, please respond if you like.

I personally feel the title of this thread could be changed..I don't promote anything, I have no religion because they are all belief systems and temporary tools at best to get to the truth of who and what we are.

however, I agree with Blink, we like to share what we have found works for us with others and just because we don't get a response doesn't mean what we have garnered for ourself is not worth giving away.

this is interesting; I just started reading Kurt Leland's out of body experiences and he comes from TMI, the book is called OtherWhere and its quite good.

so here let me quote why what I just read ties into this threads thoughts:  ..Virgil led Dante through the nine circles of hell and the seven levls of purgatory. Having been born before the time of Christ, however, Virgil was largely unfamiliar with the layout of purgatory which had been created for the exclusive use of <Christian souls>

I submit it is the Christians who created hell bsts. to each his own right?  we are so creative to be able to punish ourselves, both in our minds and in our afterlife situations.

Don, I agree with you.  The Heavens and Hells of the Belief System Territories are no more than levels of a specific vibration and energetic composition which attract those who are composed of the same energy.  They can be correctly labeled BSTs, however, because it is due to beliefs that the person's energetic makeup resonates with a specific energetic vibrational frequency in the first place.  As we change our beliefs we likewise change our vibrations.  A person who believes it is neccessary to kill everyone he dislikes will be attracted to that murderous belief system until he changes his belief.  Just as a person who believes he must go to church for all enterity worshiping God will be attracted to that belief system until he changes his belief that eternal worship is neccessary.

Chumley -
  One other thing.  About people getting what they want.  People do get what they want in the end - their own selfish desires and aims or they become enthralled with the joy involved in loving others and God.  Living in selfishness and opression of others will attract one to others who are into the same thing.  That person will oppress and be opressed most likely, with other people, if that is what that person is after (like attracts like).  God has given us free will, to use or abuse, but at some point it is enough (death).  We then hang out with people who do the same or hang out with people who are after loving each other.

If there is no life review, or judgement for actions committed, then there is no morality or ethics.   The world and all of its consequences become a sick joke.  Kids who are raped and killed have no recompense, and there then is no justice after all for most of humanity. 
*****************
If the victim(s) ceased to exist after death... why would they care?
And if the murderer ceased to exist after HE died... how
would he be able to revel in the pride of how good a killer
he was, or savor his victory over the families of the kids he
murdered... or relish the memory of how much fun it was to
kill them???
Watch out for those double-edged swords, Pratekya. They cut
both ways..!

B-man

 The question is, which came first, the desires or the beliefs?  

 What came first, the right brain or the left (i don't mean the actual physical brain parts, but rather the functions/perceptions each are connected to)?

 Oft they go hand in hand, but they are not the same, and one did come before the other.

B-dawg wrote on Jan 24^th, 2007 at 1:13am:


Chumley -
 If we face anihilation after death, victim and victimizer alike, then there is no ultimate justice in the universe.  Because clearly there is a deficient amount of justice in this earthly life for most of humanity.  In addition, your view does nothing to address the meaninglessness of life that I mentioned without the existence of God and a setting of things right after death.  Life, in your view, is meaningless, temporary, brutal, and insanely unfair to most of humanity.  Life is a sick joke in your view (unless you are one that victimizes others and takes pleasure in that).
 Having said that, I stand by what I wrote about earlier.  Its nice to think that suicide would be a way out, a way towards anihilation that one wants.  We are given freedom of choice, but reponsibility for our choices comes with that.  Bruce's work, near death experiences, as well as the major world religions (besides Buddhism) support that suicide is not actually a way out, and that existence continues.
 I have read (I forget where now) about discarnate souls that can eventually choose annihilation, and I think this may be a possibility and don't think it conflicts with a set of core Christian beliefs.  However from the reading I have done, this is somewhat rare.  I don't claim to have explored these realms myself.
 Lastly, you haven't addressed my arguments for the objective existence of God that I wrote about earlier.  If God objectively exists (not just as a product of someone's belief system), but really exists, then what you want (anihilation after death) may not matter.  You seem to think this is incredibly unfair, saying you didn't choose to be born.  This may or may not be true, as some people suggest that their soul makes the choice itself to be incarnated when given the opportunity (and we don't remember this in our physical body).  Life is an opportunity, and the stakes are high, but you can succeed against selfishness (as I need to) if you ask God for help.  God ultimately respects your free will in every choice that you make.
Pratekya