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Time in the physical and NDEs (Read 4705 times)
DocM
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Time in the physical and NDEs
Jan 11th, 2007 at 10:52am
 
One of the striking things that one sees in NDEs is that eventhough the person may be clinically dead or near death for a brief period of time (minutes), they often return with information that would have taken days to absorb here in the physical world.  We often here that there is no linnear time in the afterlife.  Still, one wonders on the amount of experience one can acquire within seconds/minutes of linnear earth time. 

Howard Storm's near death experience enabled him to go from his hospital room, to a hellish plane, where he was torn apart, and then to be rescued by JC, be transported to a realm of beings of light, and have a complete life review.  If one realizes that these events may be so accelerated in NDEs that are just minutes or seconds in earth time, how much could a spirit absorb over days, months or years in earth time?

Another thought is whether we couldn't live our entire afterlife existence in the time it would take the brain/body to die.  Stories have been written about this; the movie "Jacob's ladder" was about a scenario like this (a soldier is gored to death in Vietnam, and while they futiley operate on him in a MASH unit, he "lives" a life as if he came back home, but with strange demons chasing him at times, or other weird happenings.  The only stumbling block to this scenario is the documentation of definite communication with those who have been long dead. 

Still, I am impressed at the difference in time and thought reported both in the astral and NDEs.  Swedenborg began, I believe to master his skills at around age 58. Yet sometimes in his work, he states that he has spoken to angels at length (for hours he says) on this topic or that.  Clearly he would not have had the time in the conventional sense to do those things in the physical world.


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dave_a_mbs
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 3:35pm
 
Hi Doc-
I'm reminded of Emerson, "See the universe in a drop of dew..." While we rarely look farther in our everyday experiences, in absolute fact, the location of the most distant galaxies of the cosmos are reflected in every dewdrop.  To obtain all that information in an instant is not only possible, but it seems inevitable, since it presents to us. Moreover, when treated as a "feeling experience", and not as a complicated and highly abstracted thinking process, it makes sense that one would discover it all in a single instant.

We than can spend the next millennia trying to figure it out and put it into words. That's where we begin to notice time passing...

d


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Rob Calkins
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 5:19pm
 
Haven’t read about Storm’s NDE but it sounds how I often feel when I try to keep up my dream journals or notes on my Monroe and Moen exercises – no doubt that explains why I’m not a good journal keeper.  A few simple images seem to expand into several pages of explanation – the content keeps expanding not unlike Dave’s reference to a drop of dew.

In psychological time, if I understand it, a pleasurable experience is associated with a shorter period of time (i.e. it ends too soon) and an unpleasant one seems to go on for hours.

It seems to me that with spiritual time (or non-time) that depth becomes the equivalent of duration.  That is the deeper we experience something or the more intense an experience then it seems to last longer.  Thus a “deep” experience could allow us to absorb more information.

Rob
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DocM
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #3 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 5:34pm
 
If you think about it, in Storm's NDE, he was in a hellish realm, chased and torn apart by uncaring former people (like himself at the time), until he was given the instructions to ask for help/pray.  He mumbled something akin to a hodge podge of a prayer, including silliness like parts of The American pledge ("our father who art in heaven, yea though I walk through the valley of death, one land indivisible, with liberty....").  The hellish people howled, and recoiled from him, and at that point JC came to save him.

People worry about being in a hell for all eternity, and yet, this all occured during a short space of earth time, when Storm had his NDE (?minutes).  In fact he had so much time, he asked in depth questions of angels/God such as about topics of nuclear war, the validity of the bible, life on other planets, etc.  This and an entire life review!

I initiated this thread because other astral adepts like Swedenborg report having "spoken to angels" for literally hours on this or that subject!  So it seems that the experiences while in the hypnagougic state or in a NDE both have a remarkable ability to transmit vast amounts of information and events/conversations with relatively little time elapsing on the earth plane. 

However other, more earthbound spirits seem to have more "earth like" communication methods, such as the suicide Don mentioned who followed his father around shouting "Pa!"



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Cosmic_Ambitions
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #4 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 7:44pm
 
It would seem to me that the instant one passes from the physical realm to the spiritual realm (with all accounts of timelessness in the spiritual considered) there holds the probability of experiencing literally an infinite amount of events while within that spiritual state of reality; simultaneously, mere seconds may pass within the juxtaposed physical realm. However, if taken into consideration the case that we gain exponential modifications of our current perceptual senses once transitioned into these various afterlife realms it may hold that the communication of/transmission of events within these various realms would be substantially altered from our current physical understanding of reality. Hence, it would be impossible for us to consider the true mechanics and dynamics of such a reality unless our senses were to match those of said experiencer. It is similar to being born without sight and trying to conceptualize the nature of color.

It is a pretty mind-blowing thought to consider that within the physical span of say 2 min. we could potentially spend an equivalence of eons within a dimension defined by its timeless state of existence.

Once said consciousness reintegrates into its physical vessel it seems to me that it would not be possible for the now physically integrated consciousness to express in full the true mechanics and dynamics of sensory perception while in that previous state of existence. At least not in a way that would be of any advantage to a human mind's limited sensory perception... not in its true sense anyway.

PUL,
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Would there be this eternal seeking if the found existed?~Antonio Porchia&&Before enlightenment-chop wood, carry water.  After enlightenment-chop wood, carry water.~Zen Buddhist Proverb&&And remember, no matter where you go, there you are.~Confucius
 
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #5 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 8:23pm
 
Hi Guys-
Interestingly, I'm inclined to agree with everyone, although with a couple side thoughts. Doc and I seem to have an ongoing disagreement about the nature of time in the "Spirit World", but this might be a very good resolution to the dichotomy.

I recall many years ago, when 40 years younger and far and away more foolish than the last gentleman I flamed, I imbibed a vast quantity (many times more than the directions said to not take more than) of a local cough and cold remedy (no longer on the market - for reasons that will soon be obvious) and I found myself being translated into a universe of chill and mechanical logic. As I recall, the central edifice of this place looked rather like the old Montgomery Wards Building in Chicago, into which were fed zillions of railroad tracks. I was being whisked along one of them. I next discovered that I was being called to task for a number of moral errors of my earlier life - no problem finding plenty of grist for the Cosmic Mill in that regard! 

One of the issues was payment of half the cost of my latest girl friend's abortion. This happened to be on my mind because the day after I had agreed, a billboard went up directly across the street from my residence showing a fetus in a bottle, and the caption, "ABORTION IS MURDER". So here in this "wherever" I was stuffed into a womb, then aspirated by a D&C, bottled, then dumped into a trash compactor, compacted, discarded, turned into landfill. I might have been incinerated along the way as well, but I forget some of the details. And as I began to rot it occurred to me that this might be a message that I possibly had screwed up somehow. So, knowing no better option, I simply said, "OK, God, I messed up, so please fix me." Instantly I was transported out of the garbage dump and into a sort of nurturant "limbo" (no better word comes to mind), where I sensed a lot of things being reprogrammed, and after having much of my psyche rebuilt, I began to recover my everyday awareness.

The "traveller time", or "proper time" in physics terms, would probably have been days, certainly hours. But all of this went down in a matter of just a few seconds longer than it took to pray for repair work. I think my pipe (I was also smoking something at the time) was still lighted.

This was neither timeless, nor an instantaneous translation to distant realms, but it was played out as a tremendously complicated series of impressions. Like C-A mentioned, the time to write it out in detail greatly exceeded the moment in which it all descended on me. Infact, I couldn't do it. I recall actually drawing the scene in an efort to get in all the parts, but it was impossible - just too much information to code and reproduce, although it was all there in the same initial instant.

This is one of those things that seems sufficiently consistent that I have confidence that it is very probably a universal experience. I can also see why someone might interpret it as timelessness, but I still balk at that. 

d
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #6 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 8:32pm
 
Not only did Howard Storm chronicle his NDE but another great book to read about NDE's and meeting God is Saved by the Light by Dannion Brinkley. He was struck by lightning while talking on the phone and he was very dead by the time the paramedics got to him.  He also went into a personal Hell before he asked for forgiveness before the hurt of the demons stopped. I have read both Storm and Brinkley, and there experiences are a great teaching for those of us who haven't had a NDE. 
Their writings convinced me that we do create our own hell we visit IF needed before seeing the paradise promised. I mentioned that Suddam Hussein went directly to his hell to feel all the pain he has caused, and I was reprimanded, quite sternly, by some one who doesn't believe in Hell. It is all in what YOU make it. For me, Suddam had to see the hurt he caused. When you read Storm or Brinkley, they make that quite clear. 
When my husband was near death this past year, the doctors  stepped back and waited for Paul to "come back on his own" (as we have a do not resuscitate order). My husband began a loop of visions that ended when he was in recuperation.  His stories were long, but the physical time span was only seconds, according to we who were with him during the hallucinations, as the hospital staff refer to them.  This past October, he had another attack that put him back into the hospital and according to Paul, he did die. (I was standing by his side, and he didn't clinically die.) He remembers a grey light and he felt himself being pulled toward it.  Behind the grey light was a brighter white light with an arm and hand signaling to him to keep coming (as in the motion of a traffic officer telling traffic to come forward). He heard a voice calling to him, telling him to come home now.  Paul protested and said, "I'm not ready to come home. And besides, my wife is calling me back."  I was, in fact , standing over him, meditating and praying that his pain would subside and that he would heal. I called upon his father, Joe and God to put their hands into Paul's bowel and untwist it and bring it back to normal.  All this happened within  a 15 minute time span.  Paul never heard my speak out loud, as I was in meditation.  For Paul, that period of time was VERY long because of the associating pain. In this scenario,  time went longer because of the discomfort, Whereas when he was in the operating room  and the doctors stepped back for only minuets, he saw an entire lifetime of a person happening.  ----cat
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Rob Calkins
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #7 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 9:05pm
 
Maybe our physical brains can only process at a certain limited level while our "minds" don't have the same limitations but can be and think in different places at once.  Like Emerson's dew drop thing that Dave mentioned.  A similar but not transforming experience what when I was 12 or 13 and capsized in a boat and thought I was going to drown - it seemed like my a good portion of my life flashed through my mind but my brain only picked up fragments of it.  The experience was only a minute or so.

Rob
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LaffingRain
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #8 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 9:26pm
 
Interesting topic about time, psychological time, linear time, nde time and astral time.

I read ACIM which told me that everything I want to do here has already been done.

I did not understand. I began to experience the future (of myself) but not all events, just particular events otherwise one can go batty you know.

I could start to understand that I was in a movie of life and that I had actually made it to the end of the movie, but in another space or dimension of time in which this other part of me (alysia) was not privy to as I had chosen to come here for experience.

Dave, I enjoyed your talk and frankly you can sometimes have me rolling on the floor with laughter as I follow your adventure.

its true we can experience a lot of information feed, in a few seconds, and information feed I mean in a very real sense of it being experiencial rather than dream like.

on the other hand, I took 8 hours linear time to do 1) retrieval plus 2) talked with guides about what my future was to be and 3) looked at a future house I would live in as well in a future state of NM which I had no plans to move there at the time.

it took 8 hours, but while in the experience which was by no means a dream, to do those things seemed to me to be taking only 30 minutes per item.
or am I just a slow spirit? Smiley
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #9 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 9:39pm
 
slow molasses catches more honey bees than swift water!
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #10 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 9:58pm
 
identcat wrote on Jan 11th, 2007 at 9:39pm:
slow molasses catches more honey bees than swift water!



thanks dear..this is how I view your higher self..this is angel number 09
...
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #11 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 11:45pm
 
She's beautiful---and i would love to meet this angel during my travels.  When I do, I will surely let you know.  Love and Light-- Carol Ann
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 8:44pm
 
Hi!

It's similar in some of my meditations; after it, when I write it down, often it is going to be a very long description coming from, in physical time, just some moments. I thought it is because the general fact that pictures, even when they appear for just a moment, require long descriptions in words. But it is not only that. There is this thing Bruce calls "knowing". Imagine you have lived for a very long time in the same place. So you can tell about every little single thing in this place a whole novel. That is what I experience sometimes. There is a visual scene, and at the same time I have knowings of some parts of this scene, far beyond the visual aspects of these items, and this knowing leads to other scenes and knowings so that a whole network is appearing; I then "see" the network, but as a sort of background, depending on what place in the network I have my focus on. What I focus on becomes sharper and more detailed, and the other relations, the rest of the network is becoming softer, foggier, steps back.
Also, during those meditations, I'm acting within time, there is a before and an after, but only not comparable with a physical timespan (but my body-feeling keeps me informed how much time in the physical must have been passed, since I usually am aware of my body).

Wow what a beautiful lady angel. How her wings sparkle, I like that. She's in cool colors and attitude, she seems to be an aerial character.

Spooky
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Re: Time in the physical and NDEs
Reply #13 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 10:00pm
 
Spooky wrote:

"There is a visual scene, and at the same time I have knowings of some parts of this scene, far beyond the visual aspects of these items, and this knowing leads to other scenes and knowings so that a whole network is appearing; I then "see" the network, but as a sort of background, depending on what place in the network I have my focus on."

I have experienced this before Spooky. I have visualized a scene and have felt in knowing the background/detail/meaning/etc. of that particular scene in a very familiar and personal way; sometimes leading to other scenes with a similar end result. Sometimes it can become a very involved knowing just from a single brief flash of a particular scene. This may be in direct correlation to the NDEs people describe wherein they experience seeing their entire life flashing before their eyes, and reliving every moment as if they were truly there again.

PUL,
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Would there be this eternal seeking if the found existed?~Antonio Porchia&&Before enlightenment-chop wood, carry water.  After enlightenment-chop wood, carry water.~Zen Buddhist Proverb&&And remember, no matter where you go, there you are.~Confucius
 
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