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Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude (Read 25102 times)
I Am Dude
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #45 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 2:21am
 
I appologize.  Perhaps you are confusing the words of Acharya with my own?  Don stated that she did not comment on any of his refutes, so I simply stated the reason why that was.  Those are not my thoughts or words.  Don can dish out a lot of insults, so I am sure he can take it like man when the person he insults(Achayra) give some back.  But unlike Achayra, I do not and have not insulted Don or anyone for that matter, even when he throws personal jabs at me.  If you believe I have, please point out what I have said to make you think that and i will explain, for my intentions never have been to personally attack anyone.  This thread is obviously not about a spiritual search, but a debate of opposing "facts."  I am, however, engaging in a search to learn the truth about Jesus, not from reading threads or books, but a search from within.  I may appear to be stubborn, but I have stated many times that just because I do not believe Jesus never walked the earth does not mean I do not believe he exists spiritually, for I do.  

You listed a few insulting remarks from Acharya towards Don.  Should I list all of his crude remarks for her?  Or perhaps I should list his insults towards me?  These are not my remarks, they are hers, I have nothing to do with them.  I am sorry she chooses to communicate in such a way, but I clearly do not.
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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DocM
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #46 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 2:48am
 
Dude says:

'As you bring on your "evidence," I am going to find sources with more credentials than you that show that your evidence is bogus and simply a poor excuse to try to hold onto your outdated beliefs.  She told me that she did not want to waiste her time on pests like you, that your a dime a dozen and therefore did not find you worthy of taking apart your "evidence" point by point.'

If you don't see a problem with your reply, it may just be a sign of the modern generation's "in your face," way of relating to others......I don't know.  You state that you are going to find sources with more credentials to show that his evidence is bogus and simply a poor excuse to hold onto his outdated beliefs?  And this is not inflammatory or insulting?  Dude (still don't know your name), the point is not brinksmanship, it is an honest presentation of facts.  This presentation should have no ulterior motives of ill will (i.e. to prove another " bogus"  or "outdated").   To mention that this ill-tempered woman then states that she won't waste her time on "pests" like Don is demeaning, and for her to say that she didn't find him worthy of taking apart his evidence (in quotes to demean it) point by point is adding further insult to injury (not to mention turning tail herself).  I shouldn't have to tell you this.

I am not an apologist for Don.  I have come out against his use of the phrase New Age ghetto, as well as other statements that were over the top.  However, once engaged in debate, Don does stick to the issues.  While using colorful phrases such as "Wrong again!," or "Lies!" he is fairly careful not to tell anyone that their mother wears army boots, but to address the topic.  I do not bring up my last two posts to defend Don, but the tone of the forum.  Don, I'm sure can handle himself.
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I Am Dude
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #47 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 3:07am
 
Quote:
This presentation should have no ulterior motives of ill will (i.e. to prove another " bogus"  or "outdated").


Lets take a look...

Quote:
In another thread I claimed that Dude and Ra were the bobsy twins.   I want to apologize for that remark.  It is unfair to Ra.   Dude is a perfect illustration of what I mean when i refer to the New AGe ghetto.

Quote:
I will repost my critque a representiative sample of Dude's Krishna and Horus parallels to illustrate why his parallels are bogus.

Quote:
Dude is the paradigm of the myopic New Age Ghetto mentality.

Quote:
Your parallels are generally contrived, even bogus

Quote:
As usual you are clueless.

Quote:
So I must once again rub Dude’s snotty nose in my old challenge

Quote:
Dude tries to compensate for his intellectual myopia

Quote:
all I get from you is mindless bluster

Quote:
Reading comprehension is clearly one of your deficiencies.


With all due respect, Doc, open your eyes!

I could have posted many more, but Im tired and Im sure you get the point.  

His goal is clearly to prove my thoughts and beliefs to be bogus, while throwing in some personal jabs every now and then as well to put me in my place.  So lets be fair here?
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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DocM
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #48 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 6:56am
 
I never condoned Don's comments (see my reply #46, third paragraph), and in the past he has been forced off the site voluntarily or otherwise for them.  However, in general he tends to stay on topic and throw out these love taps at the beginning to goad people.  Quite frankly I'm not sure what a new age ghetto is.  Bobsy twins?  Come on.  Snotty nose? Well maybe you had a cold.  Sheesh.  He certainly does not get to the level of your mentor Achayra.  

The purpose of this thread is to discuss evidence - for the existence of JC, no?  One should also analyze where one has gone so far along the way.  As Chumley pointed out, the evidence against Josephus seems impressive.  That was but one of several points Don made.  Dude, when you make an argument that Jesus never existed it is like my friend Dave-MBS says, as if you were saying that all crows must be black.  Find one white crow, and your theory is toast.  There is enough ambiguity in the historical record to have found several white crows by now; so I'm not sure where your thread is going (though I do find the different perspectives interesting).  

M
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I Am Dude
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #49 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 1:45pm
 
Doc.  I am also unsure of where this thread is going.  I just wanted to point out that he has been apparently quite rude on more than one occasion, and I found it a little strange that you wish me off the site with the first questionable remark I have ever made.  I did not mean for it to sound mean spirited, my point was that I would be gathering my data from sources that have great knowledge in this field and credentials to back up their work, because I obviously do not, I am not even finished school yet!  As far as proving his evidence as bogus... that is more or less what this whole thread is about!  I bring up my "evidence"... he tries to disprove it.  He brings up his "evidence"... I try to disprove it.  That is what has been going on since the first post.  I don't feel it is innapropriate.  But regardless.. I'm loosing motivation for continuing on this thread more and more as the days go by, this is quite the pointless thread.  Interesting, yes, but pointless.
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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DocM
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #50 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 2:01pm
 
Dare I suggest, Dude a compromise?  That if Don makes a good point (and several of his critiques do hold water) that you acknowledge that.  I myself am not above admitting that I am learning from someone I'm debating.  Nor is Don. 

Don and I had a thread on the Light Being with NDEs and visions of the Buddha or Mohammed.  When I presented the evidence I was aware of, he rose to the occasion, acknowledged it, and said he would look into it further. 

If Don learns from one of your posts, or finds the argument cogent, he should acknowledge it.  I think he is less a fan of the "cut an paste" someone else's discussion ideas. 

So, I shouldn't have to say it, but the best way to proceed is to discuss your points, and acknowledge when the other side is enlightening. 

As to your staying on the site, I do not wish you or anyone off unless the level of dialogue gets and stays down and dirty.  I have been impressed with your intelligence and experiences - I've told you that several times.  However, no fewer than four threads were created about Jesus and christianity, some of which are downright offensive to christians in their tone.  Last night the level of discourse dropped into the sewer - that was what I was saying.


M
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Brian7
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #51 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 8:40pm
 
Hey Dude,  I'm not sure if someone already touched on this....

You mention a comment regarding the same / similar "jesus figures" throughout history in different cultures around the world.  I think your intent is to suggest that the Jesus Story is just and adaptation of one of those other stories.

However - I have another plausible possibility.  I grew up in a Christian home... my dad a minister.  But in my 30's i became a Buddhist.  Later, I studied a bit of Hinduism.  Later still, occultism.  Throughout each study, I found the same/similar "feel" and "sensations" via each "belief system."  The Buddhist temple had the same peace that the Christian church had.  But how could this be?  And what does this have to do with your question?

This is what I'm getting at....

Consider the possibility there is a Divine Source to all.  This Divine Source works itself into various cultures differently.  So the Hindu may have the Krishna person and the Christian may have the Christ person.  Perhaps each, and all, is quite true. 

I'd suggest that taking a stand that "this can't be real" or "he couldn't exist" has no real redeeming value. How does that help anyone?  Destroying someone's dream is never positive.  Destroying someone's value of what's Holy is never positive.  Even if you're right, the fact someone says "he's Holy" makes Him (Jesus) Holy - to that person(s).  Just like any Holy object.  So to tarnish that object/person/concept to the believer is as tarnishing something you value as Holy or precious.

So... what's the point of saying Jesus, or Buddha, or Krishna never existed?
To make a name for one's self (i.e. writing a book.)
To prove people wrong.

But isn't all of that Ego?

Try and meditate on "How can Ego hurt me?"
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AhSoLaoTsuAhhOmmra
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #52 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 2:45pm
 
 Kind of syncronistic, a Yeshua issue/conversation came up with another friend of mine via email.  

  I just started writing this, felt compelled to write it, and i would like to share it here.  

 I guess i call it an Ode to our friend and the longest and hardest working Retriever on the team, Yeshua.

It was in the garden, Yeshua knew that he would be betrayed soon and then arrested.  He knew this arrest would lead to his physical death.   He told his friends, the 12 apostles this, but they chose not to hear him because they still misunderstood him and his mission.    

  He couldn't sleep, the last of his human ego self was freaking out and rebelling against his destiny and against the physical pain he would have to go through.  He had overcome every other test and trial, and still he must know the pangs of death.  

  The strain and stress was great, so powerful that some of the blood vessels in his forehead burst in blood.  He was in mental and emotional agony, and the worst part was that he had none of his friends to comfort him, to stay awake with him and keep him company in his last hours with them.   They all fell asleep, and even though he tried to wake Peter, James and John, they would not wake.   And he felt lonely, so unbelievably lonely, he felt abandoned by those whom he held close and thought that they loved him as he loved them and was always there for them in their difficult times.  

  Yet he rose above his false self, and in prayer and meditation he gained the strength necessary to fulfill his purpose which was not for himself, but for others.  He transcended and regenerated the very last of his weak and separated human self.   He became filled up with Source consciousness which is strength, surety, joy, and centeredness.   In the raging tempest he found a peacefullness that surpasses understanding.  When the time came, he met his accusers and betrayers with self detachment and with complete compassion and forgiveness, he left his friends with compassion and forgiveness.  He felt and became nothing but Love incarnate and personaified.   There was only life in him, though he knew he would die soon and since he was so filled up with the very essence of life even physical death had no hold over this powerful and beautiful child of Source who revivified his body, the temple, with pure Life and Source energy.

 Did he not tell his accusers much earlier, "This temple will be completely torn down, but in 3 days time i will have rebuilt it".   They did not understand what he had meant, that he was not talking about the temple of Jerusalem, they were deaf and blind to the inner truth he spoke and so not understanding him, they mocked him, called him a crazy and unbalanced fool.

 He accomplished this not just for his individual self, but for all of us, to set the ultimate example which would go down in history.
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #53 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 1:44am
 
Dude et al,

This thread contains my detailed critique of Acharya S. as relayed by Dude.  Both Dude and Acharya have ducked all my main refutatons.  I just discovered 2  devastating reviews of "The Christ Conspiracy" by Mike Licona.  Licona consults scholars like N. Swerdlow of the University of Chicago, who, among other things,  presents a convincing refutation of her methodology with respect to ancient astronomy and astrology.   I doubt that anyone who reads both reviews will want to read her new book "Suns of God."  I am now looking for a good review of that book by a credible scholar.   

To read both of Licona's reviews, consult the website, "Answeringinfidels.com and then press "Answering Skeptics" and you will see Acharya's name.

Dude accuses me of refusing to read books by qualified skeptics.  He has no conception of what academic study of the highest levels involves.  In fact, most of my academic training has involved reading books by skeptics.  But I don't have time for kooks like Acharya who are deservedly ignored by real scholars.

Don
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I Am Dude
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #54 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 1:56am
 
As expected, you scouted for the bad reviews so could invent an excuse to avoid reading her book.  For every 1 bad review of her work there are 9 good reviews for it.  Of course, you probably searched for "achayra kook bad review scholar christian apologist"
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #55 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 2:05am
 
Dude,

You will do practically anything to avoid the hard work of critical thinking.  Assess the reviews in terms of their contents, not their presumed provenance.  A bad review by a competent scholar outweighs 10 good reviews by unqualified stooges.  Besides, I myself have decisively refuted her and you are just upset because you cannot competently reply to my point by point critique--and neither did she, as I have demonstrated.  I guess I need to summarize all my refutations so you can grasp their significance and more easily eespond.

Don
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I Am Dude
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #56 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 2:26am
 
Don

I am not responding to your refutations because I have gotten over this silly debate.  You can summarized them for me if you like, although it will be quite unneccessary and a great waiste of your time.  Not only because I clearly grasped what you said the first time around, but because I am no longer engaging in this debate.  My view of things at this point is that you can have your beliefs and I can have mine, and we can be happy for eachother because we are both one with god.  So lets just be happy for eachother, k?  I've realized that proving someone wrong in a case such as this has no positive effects for any parties involved.  Especially because we both seem to be so darn stubborn! 

So this is my official statement:  I do not care to disprove your theory of Jesus' existance, and also do not care if you prove my theory wrong or not.  If you continue trying to do so, thats great.  You can give the Christians on this site a stronger feeling of security that their beliefs are true.  However, the ones on the site who are on the opposite spectrum will probably not take you too seriously due to the circumstantial amount of evidence in opposition to your point.  So let Jesus live on in your hearts for eternity, for the rest of us, on our search may go to find the truth!
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #57 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 2:38am
 
Dude,

C'mon, ditch this posturing and just read Licona's two reviews.
Don
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I Am Dude
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #58 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 2:45am
 
Don

I happen to be very very happy with my decision to leave this topic alone!  lol You crack me up.  Regardless of whether or not you believe I am fronting, I feel my decision is true to me and will not abandon what I feel is right to satisfy your hunger for dominance in the Hesus game!  Feel free to do all the refuting you want though, I will not and can not stop you.  Don, your a good guy, no matter what Achayra says.
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I Am Dude
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Re: Jesus' Legitimacy: A  Reply to Dude
Reply #59 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 3:21am
 
Don

I hope this will motivate you to read Suns of God.  This was written by the author concerning the "devastating reviews" that you claim prevent you from reading it. 

"I refuted Licona - even in one of my recent missives concerning this
frantic fool. Licona is not a credible source, and he did NOT present
my work to anyone with any degree of accuracy. Edwin Bryant for one
admitted as such - Licona read him a couple of sentences, and he
responded, without having read one word of my work. We have no idea
what Licona actually told the guy, but none of the scholars that
Licona interviewed had read any of my work, so their opinions are
entirely irrelevant, as is Licona's, whose claim to fame is attempting
to "prove" that a Jewish man really rose from the dead 2,000 years
ago. As I've said before, he is not a credible source, nor is he an
honest person, as his methodology has demonstrated. I easily refuted
the first of his "devastating" (not) critiques here:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/licona.htm

I couldn't be bothered to do likewise with his second, as it is simply
more of the same inane sophistry.

My book "Suns of God" is in large part a response to these various
shallow criticisms brought forth by people like this Don person,
who honestly believes that a Jewish man is THE god of the cosmos.
Before he goes calling others "kooks," he should examine his own glass
house. He can foam at the mouth over me and my work until the cows
come home but the bottom line is that HE HAS NO EVIDENCE THAT JESUS
CHRIST EVER EXISTED. Waving his hands around and making frantic
insults of my person will NOT make that fact go away. I've said that
before.

I have also provided an ENORMOUS amount of FREE material online that
clearly demonstrates the depth of my scholarship, such that even a
Christian conservatist like this one could easily be put in his place, since
HE KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT MY WORK. HE IS THEREFORE ENTIRELY UNQUALIFIED
TO MAKE A COMMENTARY ABOUT IT. But, like all Christian loudmouths, he
merely insults and talks over his opponents, attacking them personally
while demonstrating his own murky thinking in blindly believing the
most absurd and ridiculous suppositions, such as a Jewish man born of
a virgin who walked on water, rose from the dead and ascended into the
sky. Wow! If THAT'S not kooky, then nothing is, including me. Let
the blathering man PROVE those moronic beliefs, and then we will
entertain his opinions.

Here again are my voluminous resources:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/christconspiracy.html

Note that the article "Bone Box No Proof of Jesus" was published in
"Secular Nation" after being recommended by DR. ROBERT PRICE. Price,
by the way - repeating myself again - retracted certain of his
derogatory comments, took down his negative review of "The Christ
Conspiracy," wrote a favorable review of "Suns of God" for inclusion
in "The Journal of Higher Criticism" and gave it a mention in the
bibliography of his latest book, "The Pre-Nicene New Testament."
Price has also gone on the air calling me a "scholar equal" and has
appeared on a radio program with me that was very respectful and
informative. Dr. Price has further written a favorable review of my
ebook "Who Was Jesus?" which can be found here:

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html

There are MANY people within academia who have read my works and who
have written to me with positive impressions. Most of them are not
within the comparative religious field, and their opinions would no
doubt be ignored and their persons insulted by these mealymouthed
apologists."

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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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