Acharya has the habit of interpreting vague Egyptian images that may or may not apply to Horus to adduce her parallels.   She also ingores the need to date her sources to the pre-Christian era.  I will comment on a representiative sample of Dude's Horus and Krishna parallels to illustrate why his parallels are bogus. 

***Horus was baptised by water by anup:::Jesus baptised by water by John.
_______________________________________________________________
Hardly!  Horus died and was cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by the crocodile god at the request of Isis.  That’s hardly a baptism that resembles Jesus’ simple imnersiion in the Jurdan!  In any case, Jewish baptism was simply an outgrowth of Jewish ritual immersions and has nothing to do with Horus!

***Horus born in Annu, the place of bread:::Jesus born in Bethlehem, the house of bread.
______________________

A mere coincidence, especially since "Bethlehem" means "house of bread," not "place of bread."  Jesus' family were proud of their descent from David and  Bethlehem is the city of David.  Jesus' relatives used to travel around Palestine celebrating this fact and explaining the significance of Jesus' Davidic genealogy.
The alleged birthplace of Horus is irrelevant.  What is relevant is the ancient Mesisanic prophecy about Bethlehem in Micah 5:2.
"
***Horus the good shepherd with the crook upon his shoulders:::Jesus the good shepherd the with lamb or kid upon his shoulders
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I challenge your claim that Horus is called “the Good Shepherd.”   Identify the text and its date.  In any case, the Bible never portrays Jesus ‘with a lamb or kid on His shoulder.”  That image comes from later Christian art which has no relevance to Horus or the formative period of Christianity.  What do you expect a shepherd to do with immobile lambs?

***The seven on board the bark with Horus:::The seven fishers on board the bark with Jesus
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Jesus crossed the Sea of Galilee various times with variious numbers of disciples.  The fact that 7 others were present on one occasion is insignificant.   

***Horus as the lamb::: Jesus as the lamb
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The Bible identifies Jesus as the Passover Lamb.  This is based on several parallels between Jesus’ death and Jewish Passover customs.  It has nothing to do with Horus. 

***Horus as the lion::: Jesus as the lion
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The poetic designation of Jesus as the "Lion" from Judah in Revelation 5:5 is based on Genesis 49:9 and has nothing to do with either Horus or the earthly Jesus' self-understanding.

***Horus as the black child:::Jesus as the little black bambino
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Rubbish!  There is no biblical evidence identifying Jesus as “the little black bambino.”

***Horus identified with the tat or cross:::Jesus identified with the cross
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Horus was never crucified and the “tat” is not identified with the Roman instrument of crucifixion.  Strictly speaking, Jesus is not “identified with the cross’” He was crucified on a Roman cross.

***Horus 30 yrs old at his baptism:::Jesus 30 yrs old at his baptism
_________________________________________________________
Wrong again!  Jesus was born before Herod's death in 4 BC.  The best estimate is that Jesus was born in 7 BC and baptized in 28 AD.  This would make him 34 or 35 at His baptism.

***Two mothers of child Horus who were sisters:::Two mothers of child Jesus who were sisters
________________
Nonsense!  Jesus had one mother, Mary.   

***The star, as announcer of the child Horus:::The star in the east that indicated the birthplace of Jesus
________________________________
The Bethlehem “star” fulfills Balaam's prophecy of Numbers 24:17 and has nothing to do with Horus.  Matthew draws several parallels between Balaam's prophecy and Jesus' birth.

***Horus the morning star:::Jesus the morning star.
____________________________________________
Jesus is nowhere labeled “the morning star” in our Gospels.  *

***12 followers of Horus as har-khutti:::12 followers of Jesus as the 12 disciples
__________________________________________________________________One Egyptian source identifies “4 disciples of Horus”.  Another source identifies 16 followerss of Horus.  But no Egyptian source identifies  12 disciples of Horus!
You are confused by an Egyptian depiction of the 12 zodiac signs.


***Anup and Aan the two witnesses for Horus::: John and John as witnesses for Jesus
_____
Wrong on both counts!  For neither Horus nor Jesus are just two “witnesses” distinguished.  Jesus has many witnesses.

I will refute only two of the Krishna parallels to illustrate Dude's flawed research.

***The moment Chrishna was born, the whole cave was splendidly illuminated::: The moment Jesus was born, there was a great light in the cave
_________________________________________________________________
Nonsense!  The Bible locates Jesus’ birth in a stable, not a cave.   The baby Jesus is located in a “house” (Matthew 2:11), not a cave.  Only later tradition speculates that Jesus was born in a cave near Bethlehem.  But that speculation is based on the cave's location, not on influence from the Horus mythology.

***Chrishna was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross, Jesus was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross.
__________________________________________________________________No auch event occurred in the Gita or in any recognzed Hindu scripture.
To quote Edwyn Bryant, a Rutgars Professor Hinduism: “There are no crucified gods in Hinduism.  Acharya needs to read a `religion 101 course.’ “
There are carvings that porray figures with holes in the foot or breast.  But Hindu scholars identify these as chakra symbols, not crucifixion nails.  Crucifixion nails are not drilled through the breast.  Crucifixion was a Roman means of execution and was unknown in ancient India!  In any case, Krishna was unknown in first century Palestine.

Don

Regarding your previous post, you did a so-so job of explaining away 15 of the parallels.  Some you simply said, "state where you heard this from because Ive never heard of it", or "that is just a coincidence."  But what about the other 30 parallels that I have identified?  Even if there were only five parallels that were accurate, that is too much coincidence and calls into quesiton the authenticity and originality of the bible's stories and its main character.  There may have been a few mistakes, but that does not mean that the entire list is bogus, because it is clearly not.

Tim, I consider your simple suggestion very compelling and profound.  Robert Monroe often encountered Christ or a being like Him during his OBEs, complete with the stereotypical musical fanfare.  bob would join the host of inhabitants of spirit planes lying belly-up in reverence.  After each episode, it would be realized that a retrieval had occurred.  In the New Testament Peter discusses Jesus' performance of such retrievals.  Bob rightly asks: "Is this God?  Or God's Son?" ("Journeys Out of the Body," 123)  I only wish Bob had followed up such encounters by actively eeeking to interview Jesus. 

Atheist Howard Storm's NDE encounter with Jesus leads to a lengthy teaching session.  I can authenticate this encounter through several subtle nuances in Jesus' teaching that are only obvious from an in depth investigation of the cultural background of Jesus' teaching.  I also detect sevreal subtle Aramaic expressions used by this NDE Jesus which Storm could never have concocted. 

On the other hand, some of Jesus' teaching about our past and future lives in other worlds in our universe seems decidedly New Agey, especially Jesus' allusion to the fact that some might even reincarnate on Earth.  I find some of this teaching mildly threatening, but i cannot just discount it because I know very well that Storm hears Jesus' authentic voice.  Such astral conversations with Jesus have great potential for bridging the gap between conventional Chrisitan and New Age perspectives on spirituality.   They also have geat potential to open up those of us who have trouble getting unstuck from certain aspects of our belief system..

Don

Hi outofbodydude I beleive in my most inner heart and soul that our dear Jesus existed,all the storys of what Jesus did through his life,have been talked about since the time Jesus was born,his love,his miracles and the wisdon and knowledge he gave so lovingly to all in his time and far beyond in our time.The word was spread about him in his time for the future generations to know,such as we know today of his life and works.

Jesus existed as he gave so much to the world and he was the son of God and Mary and through his truly remarkable life and what he said and what he did,no way could this have been a lie,as its been talked about and written down,no ones that good at making things up and it was wittnessed by so many The life of Jesus,look how many written accounts there have been of our dear saviour Jesus.He would not have been talked about and written about so much ,if he had never been around,but he was around with all his love.

I wish i had lived in his time i would have loved to sit on the hillsides listening to everything he had to say and when Jesus died ,the disciples must have felt lost and in tears that this wonderful divine being of love had suddenly left there lives as i would have cryed with them when Jesus died,i love him very much and i love God very much as well and i will always beleive no matter what is thrown at me.

Thanks for being on here Don to write about Jesus.


Love and God bless         Love  Juditha

Funny, Brendan, my brother and I were terrified of clowns as children.  We used to have nightmares....but I digress.

First, I would like to say that the debate is likely not to end in everyone being of a unanimous opinion.  Be that as it may, I find it disconcerting that despite thousands of hours of meticulous NAZI documentation in phtos, paper and film, that there are deniers of the Holocaust who have conferences about the most inane conspiracies (the latest comical one was that if Hitler had some Jewish blood in him -which has been postulated - than the Holocaust was his deliberate plan to establish the ste of Israel - I would be rolling on the floor laughing if it weren't so absurdly inhumane). 

Now follow the thought here.  The Holocaust happened in the 20th century, a mere six plus decades ago.  If the historical accuracy of this can be brought into question, do you really believe that we will establish the historical accuracy of Jesus' full life 2000 years in the past?  Of course not.

I would defend those of faith in their right to believe in him because those who reject him have no solid proof.  I am Jewish by upbringing, however I feel strongly that the life, death and resurrection of Christ is a marvelous model and example for those who believe in the afterlife and yes, Don, New Age thought.  In a very short period, by common accounts, he experiences tremendous suffering, doubt, (as we all do in life), the fear of being forsaken, followed by acceptance, death, and then the persistence of life beyond death with resurrection.  Isn't that what we are all looking for in our search for knowledge about why there is suffering in the world, and what happens when we die?

I have come to my own beliefs over the past year through personal experience and thought; I am open to change as new experiences come my way.  I believe our essence stems from conscious awareness.  In following this essence I find that much of what  is seen as polar opposites in the physical world melts away.   Armies of light and darkness, black/white, whatever dualism appears then vanishes.  This then leads me to the notion that there is a unity of all things (Don's labeling of me as monistic).  We all have experienced this feeling of unity, but perhaps not on a daily basis.  If you have ever been out on a perfect summer's day, and experienced pure joy in just "being," then  you have glimpsed into this unity.

When looking at the arguments from this perspective, I have to say, I take Tim's view that I love having the D/D debate going on.  Pass the popcorn.  But just like the yin/yang sign (the place where the black fish starts and the white fish ends, is unknowable), I believe that there is a bigger picture here, beyond the historical reality of JC.  Don/Tim alluded to it in saying "OOB Dude, try contacting him yourself when OOB."  JC and christianity have been in the hearts and minds of billions of people now.  Since, in my monistic model, conscious awareness is our essence, then the love and philosophy of JC have indelibly entered the mind of human consciousness and are part of us.  Multiple sources confirm what both Christians and New Agers believe - that love is the driving force behind the godhead and all the planes of existence. 

Incidentally, Dude, I'm surprised you didn't bring up the Essenes, a group who existed long before Jesus and who some believed JC may have had contact with.  They shared many conceptual ideas with christianity, believed in the coming of a messiah, a form of baptism, and well, you get the point - there has been debate about the role of the Essenes  for years in early christian thought. 


M

Funny, Brendan, my brother and I were terrified of clowns as children.  We used to have nightmares....but I digress.

First, I would like to say that the debate is likely not to end in everyone being of a unanimous opinion.  Be that as it may, I find it disconcerting that despite thousands of hours of meticulous NAZI documentation in phtos, paper and film, that there are deniers of the Holocaust who have conferences about the most inane conspiracies (the latest comical one was that if Hitler had some Jewish blood in him -which has been postulated - than the Holocaust was his deliberate plan to establish the ste of Israel - I would be rolling on the floor laughing if it weren't so absurdly inhumane). 

Now follow the thought here.  The Holocaust happened in the 20th century, a mere six plus decades ago.  If the historical accuracy of this can be brought into question, do you really believe that we will establish the historical accuracy of Jesus' full life 2000 years in the past?  Of course not.
*****************
WHOA, Doc. Hold it RIGHT there...
"If the historical accuracy of this (the Holocaust) can be brought into
question..."
The historical accuracy of the Holocaust is BEYOND SANE DEBATE, Doc.
There are people STILL LIVING, who went through it! The "Holocaust Deniers" out there are engaged in a deliberate campaign of dis-information driven by a very specific political agenda (and the SANE ones would admit that to you, if you caught them in an honest moment.)
"Jesus Denial" is a whole different ball of wax, Doc. There is NO good historically-documented reason to accept the veracity of the Gospels. One must today (even as 1000 years ago) accept them purely on FAITH, and/or the authority of ones religious leaders. (Just like your un-educated, redneck "Joe Schmuck" Holocaust deniers deny the Holocaust.)
Hence, believing that Jesus was a true historical figure, and the Gospels are true (right down to Jesus walking around as an undead guy, ect.) has a LOT more in common with the insane fringe of the Holocaust-denial movement, that being skeptical of Jesus' historical existence is! You're a smart guy, Doc. (You don't get to be a physician by being stupid.) So you see what I mean here???

B-man

B-man,

Sometimes, I think you just don't get what I say, and I think you feel that way about me.  Ah well.  I did understand your point that the Holocaust deniers were making up an untenable twisting of the facts to deny the Holocaust, and that to you this appears closer to modern christianity than to atheism.  I disagree with this, but understand where you are coming from.  My point is, that you can take a definite event (like the Holocaust) with definite documentation, but then have a large number of people form untrue conspiracy theories about it (forget about organized relgion for a minute as a quick response).  Take a poll in the Arab world, about whether the holocaust was real, and you will find tens of millions of people - even over a hundred million who either deny it happened or link it to a conspiracy to establish a Jewish state.   How can that be with photos, written documents and film of the tragedy?  The answer is - that even with objective evidence, the veracity of an event is difficult to prove even in modern times, because we color all objective evidence with belief systems.   

There are loonies out there, even respected scientists who insist that the US government brought down the Twin Towers.  Can you imagine?  Tapes from the hijackers, with their testimonies.  Tapes of Bin Laden watching the towers come down and admitting it, and yet, thousands of Americans formed their own conspiracy theories, despite photos of the men getting onto their planes and ramming them into the buildings. 

I remember an experiment done in a college class on psychology and truth.  A woman ran into class screaming about a personal matter.  A man followed, there was an arguement.  Fake shots were fired.  Afterward, people had to write down their accounts of what happened.  You would be amazed to see how the accounts varied on what was said and who did what to whom.  And all those students were actually in the room at the time of the staged incident.

With all that as a background, look at the title of this thread.  Of course we are not going to come to a definite conclusion about the historical reality of Jesus by debate or eyewitness testimony from 2000 years ago alone.  But that goes both ways.  Dude's refutations or parallels of Christ with Horus, or Krishna do not prove that Jesus did not walk the earth.  If JC did, perhaps he had heard of other cultures or philosophies (like the Essenes).  Parallels do not disprove the life of JC.  Not knowing what JC did prior to age 30 does not mean he did not live.   

Where does that leave this thread?  Proof one way or the other based on existing documents is unlikely.  However, there is both mystical evidence, evidence based on written and eyewitness documentation and NDE evidence to support the existence of JC


M