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JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH (Read 73620 times)
I Am Dude
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #60 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:09pm
 
I will now show all of the problems with the story of Jesus that you all know of.

Part 1: His name was Jesus Christ?

There never was a person named Jesus Christ! His first name wasn’t Jesus and his last name wasn’t Christ. Would you believe that Jesus’ real name in pre-exilic Hebrew was Yehoshua or in the Second Temple period Yeshua or Joshua? When the English rendered the Latin IESVS from the Greeks who translated the Semitic name Yeshua they came up with Jesus (Yehoshua became Yeshua became Iesous became Jesus), and that name stuck. But his real name in his own language was Yeshua, which was a very good name in the Hebrew tradition. It meant – “Yahweh (God) is savior (helper)”.

Josephus mentions more than 20 Joshuas, the most famous of whom was the “Son of Nun” (Exodus, 33:11), from the tribe of Ephraim, who was the successor to Moses as the leader of the Israelites. We remember him best as the trumpeter who blew down the walls of Jericho. What is not so well known is that Nun in Hebrew means fish, the symbol of life, especially for Galileans who lived by the Sea of Galilee. Interestingly enough, the symbol of the fish became associated with Jesus [1], as did the fact that the start of the Age of Pisces (symbolized by the fish) represented the start of the “end of times”, since Pisces was the last symbol of the Zodiac, and the start of the new age coincided with Jesus’ birth. Moreover, the symbol for “Nun” is equivalent in the Jewish gematria [2] to the number 50, which represents freedom and the fullness of life, and Nun is the fourteenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet, the number 14 symbolizing David, the King of Israel. Thus, in many ways the name Joshua was a very holy name and had many connotations that later became associated with Jesus’ life (e.g., Jesus was said to be descended from David, was said to be a “fisher of men”, preached the “end of times”, etc.).

Joshua ben Nun was not the only Joshua. Some of the other Joshuas included:

Joshua ben Stada was a Nazorean in 80 BC, who studied under a famous religious man, formed his own group, had disciples named Matthew and Thaddeus, was betrayed and killed at Passover. He came from Galilee and his mother’s name was Mary.
Joshua ben Sirach, the reputed author of the Book of Sirach (part of the Old Testament Apocrypha), who combined Jewish “wisdom” literature with Homeric-style heroes.
Joshua ben Gamala was a well known rebel and “peace activist” who was put to death during the first Jewish rebellion.
Joshua ben Ananias (Ananius) was known for prophecy (e.g., destruction of the Temple) and preached the “end of times” until his death at Roman hands in 68/69 A.D.
Joshua ben Saphat was a Galilean who led the Zealot revolt in Tiberias. Just before the city fell to Vespasian’s Legionnaires he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee.

As far as his last name goes, in those days, people didn’t have last names. He would have been called Yeshua bar Yahosef bar Yaqub, Joshua, son of Joseph, son of Jacob. Yet many people think his last name was Christ! Not true. He was never called Jesus Christ! Jesus/Joshua was believed, by some, to be the Messiah, which in Hebrew (moschiach) means “the anointed one” [3]. The Greek word for the oil used to anoint someone is “khrisma”, and the person so anointed is “Khristos” in Greek, “Christus” in Latin, and “Christ” in English. In reality, had he been considered someone deserving of anointing, he would have been called Joshua the Anointed, or Jesus the Christ.

Many people mistakenly believe that because Jesus was the “anointed one” he was the Messiah. Not true: being anointed was not solely reserved for the Messiah. Other people who were anointed were Kings, High Priests, and prophets. Indeed, in special circumstances, sick people would be anointed to help in the healing process (James 5:14).

The person referred to as “Jesus Christ” is best understood, then, to have been “Yeshua bar Yahosef ” or “Joshua, son on Joseph, son of Jacob” or “Joshua the Anointed One”. No one ever called him Jesus Christ!
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[1] The fish was also one of the symbol for Horus, a precursor to Jesus, who was also known as a “fisher of men” (Harpur, 2004).

[2] The numerology of the Hebrew language, that involves translating Hebrew characters into numbers, then seeking the meaning of the numbers.

[3] The Hebrew word, in turn, was derived from the Egyptian word messeh, the “holy crocodile”, which referred to the practice of the Pharaoh’s sister-brides anointing their husbands with the fat of the crocodile. Interestingly enough, it’s a woman (with the alabaster jar) who anoints Jesus during his fatal trip to Jerusalem (Mark 14:3). Later Gospels changed this event to hide the fact that a woman anointed Jesus, since this action implied that a woman was a priest, which was anathema to the later Gospel writers who had a definite masculine prejudice.
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #61 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:10pm
 
Part 2: Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

The Gospel of Mark tells us nothing about Jesus’ birth. It begins with his baptism and then concentrates on the last week of his life. The likely reason for this omission was that devout followers of what was to become Christianity firmly believed that they lived in the “end of times” and that the end of the world was imminent. With civilization in the balance, what mattered was what Jesus said and did, not his biographical information. Thus, the Gospel of Mark hits the ground running, with Jesus’ baptism and the heavenly pronouncement that he was God’s “beloved son”.[1] But one problem with Mark’s language is that it implied that Jesus set out on his messianic journey only as a result of heavenly insights during his baptism. Many early Christians held to the position that Jesus was born to be a Messiah, so Mark’s position needed to be changed to coincide with the prevailing wisdom. Hence, some time later, both Luke (2:4-7) and Matthew (2:1) spent substantial time clarifying Jesus’ birth and his in vitro messianic future.

Both Matthew and Luke claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea (there was another Bethlehem in Galilee), but Matthew claims the family lived there while Luke claims they made the trip from Nazareth to participate in a census. The first census in Israel was in A.D. 6-7 [2], so it makes no sense to say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem in response to a census in 6 to 7 B.C, when the first census was more than a decade later. In fact, it makes no sense that Joseph would travel to Bethlehem at all because the census was based on the person’s residence, not his birthplace (Craveri, 1967; Perkins, 1988). Moreover, his wife was pregnant, and the journey from Galilee to Bethlehem is about 75 miles, which, in those days, would have taken a week or more. The journey would have been perilous, not only because of its length and the difficult terrain, but also because of the presence of thieves. Duquesne (1994) notes: “… travelers had also to make their way across dry, rocky, tortured country, riddled with caves which served as hide-outs for the bandits who terrorized the roads (p.11).” And in any event, even if Joseph went, he would not have been required to bring his pregnant wife, as only men were required to register (Perkins, 1988).

Indeed, the only reason to have Joseph and Mary travel to Bethlehem is to have Jesus fulfill the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem:

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, out of you will be born for me the one who is to rule over Israel” (Micah 5:2)

“I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem, for I have chosen myself a king among his sons.”  (1 Samuel 16:1)

In other words, there was no evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but his “history” was made to fit into the prophecies of the Old Testament. But these prophesies referred to a person, not a place.

A careful reading of the Gospel of John shows that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem. During the Festival of Booths, as Jesus was recruiting new followers, the crowd questioned his credentials. One asked: “How does this man have such learning, when he has never been taught?” (7:15) and Jesus replied in an extended passage to the effect that what he was teaching came from God. But when others asked: “Surely the Messiah does not come from Galilee [3], does he? Has not the scripture said that the Messiah is descended from David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?” (7: 41-42). To this question, Jesus offered no reply. Given his penchant to reply to even the most oblique questions, his omission here was telling. Had he been born in Bethlehem, Jesus probably would have said something, but he doesn’t [4]. In addition, Jesus is never referred to as “Jesus of Bethlehem”, but only as “Jesus the Nazarene”. Had he been born in Bethlehem, and given the Old Testament prophecies, surely he would have been known by the name “Jesus of Bethlehem”.

While Jesus does not specifically deny that he comes from Bethlehem, he does specifically deny that he is the “Son of David”, which is the entire basis for placing his birth in Bethlehem [5]. Jesus says: “How can the Scribes say that the Messiah is the son of David?…David himself calls him Lord, so how can he be his son?” (Mark 12: 35-37; Matthew 22:45). In other words, if the Messiah was alive when David was alive, it was impossible for him to be David’s son.

In summary, Jesus was probably born in Galilee (possibly in the village of Bethlehem in Galilee). The two Gospels that claim he was born in Bethlehem of Judea have an agenda of proving that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies, and for that reason, they misshape the truth to place him there. Jesus himself never claimed to have been born in Bethlehem, even when he was being taunted to so declare. And there is no reason to believe that he was born there
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[1] Starting a biography at adulthood is not an exception, however. Res Gestae Divi Augusti (Achievements of the Divine Augustus) begins with Augustus (future Roman Emperor and declared God) at age 19.

[2] Schonfield, 1974, p.49

[3] This comment has a deeper meaning. To 1st Century Jews, the word Galilean was synonymous with being a zealot (Bultmann, 1925).

[4] One author (Wilson, 1992) interprets this verse as follows: “…the Fourth Gospel very specifically states that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem.” (p. 75)

[5] Indeed, this denial of Davidic descent is a major bone of contention between Mark and the later Gospels. It would appear that for Mark Jesus is neither the Messiah from birth nor the Messiah from the line of David.
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #62 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:12pm
 
Part 3: Jesus lived in Nazareth?

FROM SCHOLARS :
"If our reasoning is correct, they [ the Essenes] were not left out [of the Gospels], but appeared under the name nazoraioi, a word which has been mistakenly assumed to refer to the little town of Nazareth in Galilee (and never mentioned in the Old Testament)...Accordingly, ' Jesus of Nazareth' would be a mistranslation of 'Jesus the Nazorean' or grecicised, Jesus the Essene." (Ellegard, 1999, p. 241)

"For Christians brought up on the gospel stories, it might seem obvious that 'Nazarene' should mean 'of Nazareth'. Yet this is not necessarily the case. Although modern NT translations repeated references to 'Jesus of Nazareth', 'Jesus the Nazarene' is the more common form of words in the original Greek version. And one problem rarely appreciated by Christians is that, according to one school of thought, Nazareth may not have even existed in the first century AD." (Wilson, 1984, p. 67)

"There is no such place as Nazareth in the Old Testament or in Josephus' works, or on early maps of the Holy Land." (Holley, 1994, p. 190)

"...[people in Nazareth were] living in wretched caves...from about 900 BC to about 600 AD." (Keller, 1980, p. 337)

"...architectural elements and decorations suppose the construction of a "public" building...a church-synagogue.....before the Council of Ephesus (431)" (Bagatti, 1955)

"We cannot be totally sure that Jesus ever lived in the very tiny Galilean village of Nazarus, for the gospel reference to this may derive from the authors' mistaking the description Jesus the Nazarene for a reference to Nazareth." (Wilson, 1999, p. 217)

"To associate a Nazarite with the town of Nazareth was the kind of data a scribe, trained in the tradition of midrash, would employ" (Spong, 1992, p. 96)

"...none of the ceramic material accompanying them...suggests a date earlier than the third or fourth century. Even if it were a synagogue, it could not have been from the time of Jesus but centuries later...(Crossan & Reed, 2001, p. 25)."

"[the population of Nazare that the time of Jesus] lived in hovels and simple peasant houses (Crossan & Reed, 2001, p. 32)."

"The prophecy [that Jesus is a Nazarene from Nazareth] is based on Matthew's total misunderstanding of a passage from Isaiah (11:1), where the Messiah is called a nezer (branch); in other words, a branch from Jesse's (father of David) "stump". Matthew reads into "nezer" the city of Nazareth... (Ranke-Heinemann, 1994, p. 22)."

"...six oil lamps were discovered in a Nazareth tomb, and have been used in the scholarly literature as proof of a village at Nazareth in Hellenistic times, as early as III BCE. In fact, the six lamps date from the Middle Roman to the Late Roman periods, long after the time of Christ. Gross misdatings of the primary evidence, sometimes involving discrepancies of up to 500 years, are frequently encountered in the Nazareth literature (Salm, 2006, Chapter 3)."

THE REALITY 
Most people believe Jesus was raised in Nazareth. Speaking of Joseph, the Gospel of Matthew (2:23) says:  “he made his home in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He will be called a Nazorean.’” A careful reading of this passage reveals that the writers of Matthew are trying to fulfill the prophecy, not Jesus, and in order to fulfill the prophecy that “He will be called a Nazorean”, Matthew gives his hometown as Nazareth.  But in fact, there is no Old Testament prophecy to the effect that a Messiah will come from a place called Nazareth (which is another in the long list of errors that the writers of the Gospel of Matthew made about Old Testament prophecies). The closest we come to any such description is a passage in Judges (13:5) where Samson’s mother is warned: “…the child shall be a Nazarite [nazirarios in Greek, nazir in Hebrew] unto God from the womb, and he shall begin to deliver Israel; out of the hand of the Philistines.” The words Iesou Nazarene (Nazareneus) refer to the fact that Jesus was a Nazarene (or Nazarean), not to the fact that he came from Nazareth. To indicate that Jesus came from a place called Nazareth, the correct wording would have been Nazarethenos or Nazarethaios.

Thus, the idea that Jesus came from Nazareth is a result of a mis-translation of the Old Testament by the writers of Matthew.

From another point of view, there is a wealth of evidence that Nazareth did not even exist at the time of Jesus as it is described in the New Testament. It may have been a tiny spot where transient Arabs established tent cities or where people lived in "wretched caves", but it certainly wasn't a town that supported a sizable population and a synagogue. Cross and Reed (2001) claimed its inhabitants "lived in hovels and simple peasant houses (p. 32)." Keller (1988) calls them "cave dwellers".  In support of this, Nazareth is never mentioned in the Old Testament, or in the works of Jewish historian Josephus nor in any of the Epistles, nor in the Talmud [1]. Nor was there a major road in that area at that time (Sanders, p. 104). In fact, from the archeological evidence available to date (Crosson & Reed, 2001), the town of Nazareth was created after the time of Jesus, partly as a result of a mis-translation. One scholar (Gardner, 2004) dates it from 60 A.D. and Crosson (1991) from 70 A.D. Finegan (1969) provides a thorough discussion of the archeological evidence, and offers the belief that Nazareth existed at the time of Jesus (largely because of the number of graves), yet the earliest date he can muster is after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., more than 30 years after Jesus’ death.

Some scholars have argued that any synagogue that might have existed in Nazareth was destroyed and hence no trace can be found. Yet 1st Century synagogues have been found in a number of Galilean cities (Masada, Gamla, Capernaum), and there are no records of any mass destructions taking place in Nazareth that would have obliterated a synagogue if it existed.

Some scholars have argued that for 1st Century Jews, a synagogue could simply be the place where 10 men gathered to pray. In this case, a house temporarily becomes a "synagogue" for religious purposes. And this house/synagogue would not have lasted very long. While this practice did occur, a study of the language used in the gospels shows that the word synagogue, used only 43 times, is used to describe separate buildings in Capernaum (Mark 1:21; Luke 7:5; John 6:69), Jerusalem (John 9:22; 12:42; 18:20), or Gadarenes (Mark 5:22; Luke 8:4). So when the word is applied to the synagogue in Jesus' hometown, we should assume it too was a separate structure. Moreover, the synagogue in Jesus' hometown is referred to as a synagogue without any reference to the "sabbath day". Thus, while a home might become a synagogue on the sabbath day for religious purposes, to otherwise refer to the synagogue (Matthew 13:54) implies a seperate structure. Thus, the linguistic analysis leads us to believe that Jesus' hometown had a synagogue, and as far as we know from the archeological evidence, no such place existed in Nazareth.

If Nazareth didn’t exist as the town described in the gospels, and if the only connection between Jesus and Nazareth was a false translation, where might Jesus have called home? A careful reading of the Gospel of Mark indicates that Jesus’ hometown was Capernaunm [2], not Nazareth. He notes “When he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home…” (2:1). Later the Gospel says that “He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue…” (6:1). Given that Nazareth, if it existed at all, was too small to host a synagogue, how could Nazareth have been his hometown? Capernaum, on the other hand, had a “sizable synagogue” (Asimov p. 820; Sanders, p. 103), and there is some archeological evidence for that fact (Loffreda, 1985; Wilson, 1992).

Returning to the issue of Jesus the Nazarene, raised by Matthew’s mistaken attribution, is it possible that Jesus was a Nazarene? A Nazarene was someone who lived an ascetic life, known as much for what they did (a lot of praying) as for what they didn’t do (eat animals, sacrifice animals, shave, cut their hair, drink fermented beverages). Nazarenes were originally called Nazorenes, and they were a prominent sect in northern Palestine, and according to Epipanius, were also known as Mandaeans. They derived their name from the word “Nasrani” which referred to a school of small fish. The metaphor to the early Christians is obvious, as is their early symbol, the fish. Famous examples of Nazarenes included John the Baptist, the warrior Samson and the prophet Samuel. It is also likely that Jesus’ brother, Jacob (James) the Just, was a Nazarene. All things considered, Jesus life shared many of the characteristics of a Nazarene, and two of the most prominent people in his life, John the Baptist and his brother James, also were Nazarenes. Yet his proclivity for fermented beverages indicates that if he was a Nazarene, he was a poor one.

Some authors treat the word Nazarene and Nazarite (also Nazirite) as if they are the same word; they certainly look the same in English. However, the word Nazarite (nazir in Hebrew, meaning consecrated or separated) refers to a type of short-term vow (30 to 100 days), usually made to God to achieve a specific purpose, and then discontinued when the goal had been achieved (e.g., I promise not to drink alcohol if I get a new car for Christmas). Nazarite vows are described in Numbers (6: 1-21) and usually involve abstaining from wine, vinegar, grapes, raisins, contact with dead bodies, and cutting the hair on your head. Many people took Nazarite vows, including Samson (Judges 13:5), the prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 1:1), the apostle Paul (Acts 21:20-24), John the Baptist (Luke: 1:15), and others.

The bottom line, therefore, is that we have no idea where Jesus grew up, but we can be reasonably certain that he grew up in the countryside, and not in the city, because Jesus used the language of the villages. When Jesus answered questions or when he used parables, almost all his examples came from the simple life of peasants and villagers. For example, he talked about women making bread, men planting trees, people working in the vineyards, etc. Almost all of his talk about wealth was derisive, as was his attitude toward those who promoted themselves and tried to set themselves above others.
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[1] Josephus mentions 45 Galilean towns, the Talmud lists 63 Galilean towns, but neither mentions Nazareth.

[2] Indeed, Jesus rarely addresses citizenry, but when he does, Capernaum is mentioned (Matthew 11:23) but never Nazareth. Other cities he mentions include Tyre, Sidon, Chorazin and Bethsaida (Luke 10:13)
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #63 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:13pm
 
Part 4:  Mary was a Virgin? 

FROM SCHOLARS: 
"What escapes them [rationalists] is that the virginity of Mary is a religious belief, not a historical fact..." (Craveri, 1967, p. 25)

"There was nothing peculiar about the birth of Jesus. He was not God incarnate and no Virgin Mother bore him. The Church in its ancient zeal fathered a myth and became bound to it." (Schonfield, 1965, p. 50)

"One of the strongest arguments against the authenticity of the virgin birth is that apart from Matthew and Luke the New Testament never refers to it." (Porter, 2004, p. 69)

“According to the faith of the Church, the Sonship of Jesus does not rest on the fact that Jesus had no human father: the doctrine of Jesus’ divinity would not be affected if Jesus had been the product of a normal human marriage…” (Pope Benedict, 1969, 274-275)

THE REALITY 
Everyone is familiar with the story of the “virgin birth”, but what is not so familiar is the fact that only in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew is the virgin birth postulated. Neither Mark nor John makes any mention of it at all, nor is it referenced in the rest of the New Testament. In addition, apart from its mention at the start of Luke and Matthew, Jesus’ virgin birth plays no part in his subsequent life. It is never mentioned by anyone, even though one can imagine that it would have enhanced his image and added support to the theory that he was a Messiah. Indeed, the story of the virgin birth appears as an isolated entry in both Gospels, important unto itself, but then neglected and forgotten.

There are several issues related to Mary. Was Jesus’ birth a “virgin” birth? Or is it his conception that is virginal? Was Mary a “perpetual” virgin? Let’s look at all these issues.

The so-called “virgin birth” is best described as a “virginal conception”, for It’s the conception that supposedly occurs without sexual contact, not the actual birth [1]. In any event, virgin conceptions or births are not common today, but in ancient times, especially among the famous, they were not unknown. Famous children born of a virgin include: Buddha (China), Krishna (India), Zoroaster (Persia), Adonis (Babylon), and Mithra (Syria). Among the Greeks it was even more common. For example, Alexander the Great was believed to have been conceived from a celestial thunderbolt, or to have been the result of a union between Philip’s wife Olympias and the God Jupiter who took the form of a serpent. Perseus, the Greek hero who decapitated Medusa, was born of a virgin named Danae, by the God Zeus who came to her in a golden shower [2].  Even Plato was said to be born of the union of a virgin (Amphictione) and a God (Apollo), and only after his birth did Ariston, Amphictione’s husband, have sex with her. More relevant to Jesus’ time, Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome, were born of a Vestal Virgin whose father was the God of War, Mars. The Roman emperor Octavian was born from the union of his mother, Atia, and the God Apollo. The Egyptian goddess Isis gave birth to Horus despite the fact that her husband, Osiris had his phallus cut off by his brother Seth[3]. Thus, virgin conceptions were quite popular at the time, although this was only in “pagan” worlds, not in the Jewish world. 

The choice to give Jesus a “virgin birth” like many of the rich and famous of his time appears to be more of a marketing ploy than a historical fact. Not only did it serve the purpose of competing with contemporaneous cults, but also the virgin birth was another in the line of prophesies (e.g., born in Bethlehem, descended from David) which Jesus was said to fulfill. In this case, the prophecy was from Isaiah (7:14) – “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Emmanuel.” [4] Unfortunately there was a mis-translation here (as in so many other places) and the original Hebrew word almah [5] ( young girl or young woman) had been mistakenly translated into the Greek parthenos (virgin) [6], so that the original prophesy did not, in fact, call for a virgin to conceive, but simply for a young woman to conceive [7]. Moreover, Isaiah was talking about an Eighth Century B.C. sign that would appear to King Ahaz during his reign. Thus, the prophecy was not only the result of an error in translation, it was also 800 years too late.

Even if the translation were correct, which it wasn’t, the use of the word “virgin” within the context of Essene marriages had a different meaning than it does today. In those days, the elite of the Essene who were allowed to procreate (this included descendants of the King David and the High Priest Zadok) went through an elaborate procedure to insure that they kept to strict purity laws even while fulfilling their marital obligations. Gardner (2001) describes it as follows:

“Three months after a betrothal ceremony, a ‘First’ Marriage’ was formalized to begin in the espousal month of September. Physical relations were allowed after that, but only in the first half of December. This was to ensure that any resultant Messianic birth occurred in the Atonement month of September. If the bride did not conceive, intimate relations were suspended until the next December [8], and so on. Once a probationary wife had conceived, a ‘Second Marriage’ was performed to legalize the wedlock. However, the bride was still regarded as an almah (young woman) until the completion of the Second Marriage which, as qualified by Flavius Josephus, was never celebrated until she was three months pregnant.” (pp. 30-31)

The exact quote from Josephus (Wars 2), on which Gardner (and Theiring) base their assessment is:

"Moreover, there is another order of Essenes, who agree with the rest as to their way of living, and customs, and laws, but differ from them in the point of marriage, as thinking that by not marrying they cut off the principal part of human life, which is the prospect of succession; nay, rather, that if all men should be of the same opinion, the whole race of mankind would fail. However, they try their spouses for three years; and if they find that they have their natural purgations thrice, as trials that they are likely to be fruitful, they then actually marry them. But they do not use to accompany with their wives when they are with child, as a demonstration that they do not many out of regard to pleasure, but for the sake of posterity."

In the event that a woman became pregnant before the first marriage, it was said that “a Virgin had conceived”, meant as a play on words since the young woman was still legally (if not biologically) a virgin. This early pregnancy may account for the rumors, reflected in The Gospel of the Hebrews, that Jesus was in Mary’s womb for only seven [9] months. In other words, instead of being born in September as would be expected (9 months after impregnation in December), Jesus was born around July, meaning that Joseph and Mary had sex in October, when she was technically a virgin [10].

Joseph was an elite member of the Essene and Mary, chosen as his wife, was similarly highly esteemed and had been the equivalent of a nun [11] within the Essene circles [12]. These women were referred to as “virgins” in much the same way as the Greeks and Romans referred to “vestal virgins”. Thus, for Mary to conceive during this engagement period would mean that, Mary, a virgin (aka a nun) had conceived which she was still a virgin (aka during the engagement period). There was nothing supernatural about this at all. But there was a danger that the future husband could avoid the marriage, and the child, as a result, would be considered illegitimate. For a future king of the New Israel, the status as an illegitimate child could be problematic, hence the advice to Joseph from a senior member of the Essene (hence an “angel” which along with “saint” was a synonym) to go through with the first marriage as if it were the second marriage (the second marriage being one in which the woman was already pregnant) [13]. Years later, after Jesus’ death, the ascension of Jacob (aka James), Jesus’ brother and the unquestionably legitimate son of Joseph and Mary, was unchallenged.

The fact that the “virgin” birth as described above was not supernatural at all explains why there is no mention of Jesus’ birth throughout the Gospels (except the start of Luke and Matthew). Had it been supernatural or divine, the story would have followed Jesus around and been repeated. The fact that we don’t find it in the Gospels or anywhere else in the New Testament confirms that we are not dealing with anything out of the ordinary.

As indicated earlier, only Matthew and Luke postulated a virgin conception. The Gospel of John has the disciple Philip say that Jesus is the “son of Joseph” (1:45).  Paul, describing Jesus’ birth, says that “God sent his Son, born of a woman” (Galatians 4:4), using the word gune (woman) rather than parthenos (virgin).  In Romans, Paul specifically states that Jesus came “from the seed of David, according to the flesh.” (1:3) Surely Paul, the Christian master of marketing, writing before even Mark, would have promoted Jesus’ virgin birth if it had been the case.

Jesus’ natural conception is not only supported by the Gospel of John and Paul’s letters, but also the works of Cerinthus (c 100 A.D.) and Marcion (c 160 A.D.).  In addition, Jesus’ natural conception is a basic tenet of the Ebionites (“poor ones”), who were the Jerusalem based Jewish sect that emerged following Jesus’ death. James the Just, Jesus’ brother, was the head of this sect until his death, and leadership was then passed on to his brothers and then nephews. If anyone should know the true story of Jesus’ conception and birth, it would be these people. Though little survives of their texts, since they valued the oral tradition over the written one, we have extensive quotations from early Christian leaders (Irenaeus of Lyon, Eusebius of Caesarea) who complained about the Ebionites failure to believe in the virgin birth:

“Their interpretation is false, who dare to explain the Scripture thus: Behold a girl (instead of a virgin) shall conceive and bear a son. This is how the Ebionites say that Jesus is Joseph’s natural son. In saying this they destroy God’s tremendous plan for salvation…” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, III 21.1)

“Those who belong to the heresy of the Ebionites affirm that Christ was born of Joseph and Mary and suppose him to be a mere man.” (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, XI, 17)

Thus, the sect that was founded by and led by Jesus and his family specifically argued against the virgin conception.

There is another problem with the idea of a virginal conception, and this problem occupied tens of thousands of hours of debate among Christian theologians, even to this date. If the Messiah was to be of the line of David – and Joseph was said to be of David’s line – but if Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost, ipso facto, Jesus would not be of the line of David, and hence, not a true Messiah. Proponents of the orthodox view claim that by marrying Mary, Joseph “adopted” Jesus and thus the child was entitled, by law, to be considered Joseph’s son. While this is true in the strict sense, It’s obvious that for the purposes of the Old Testament, the kinship was meant to be biological, not legal.

A final problem with the idea of the virgin birth/conception is that following the birth, as described in Luke (2:22), Mary undergoes the ritual purification ceremony. Had Jesus’ birth been virginal, there would be no need for Mary to be purified. Indeed, as the virgin bride of God, the thought of purification would be anathema.

In summary, the original idea of the “virgin birth” came from a mistranslation of an Old Testament prophecy, and all the supporting evidence (e.g., Mary’s ritual purification following the birth, Jesus’ descent from David through Joseph, the testimony of the Ebionites, etc.) point to a normal birth. Lest the extremely orthodox take offence at this conclusion, we can note the following comment by Pope Benedict XVI:

“According to the faith of the Church, the Sonship of Jesus does not rest on the fact that Jesus had no human father: the doctrine of Jesus’ divinity would not be affected if Jesus had been the product of a normal human marriage…” (1969, 274-275)

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[1] In the Protoevangelium of James, Mary is said to have an actual virgin birth, in which the baby Jesus is born without any change to Mary’s body. This miracle is tested by a friend of the midwife, Salome, who reaches in and certifies that Mary’s hymen is still intact, whereupon God withers her hand for having doubted.

[2] Curiously enough, the Rabbi Trypho writing in 155 to St. Justin in Rome in the 2nd Century, said: You should blush at telling the same stories as [the Greeks]…If you do not want people to say you are as mad as the Greeks, you must stop speaking [about the virgin birth].”

[3] One can easily see that the images of Isis suckling Horus are the prototypes for the Mary/Jesus art that followed.

[4] If we continue to the next verse we can see that this quote has nothing to do with Jesus. It reads – “Butter and honey shall he eat…” As far as we know, this was not Jesus’ diet, although it does resemble the diet of John the Baptist.

[5] The Hebrew word for virgin was bethula, not almah.

[6] The word originates from Parthenis, a Greek virgin who had sex with the God Apollo, giving birth to Pythagoras (ca 569 – 475 B.C.). Some authors believe that the use of the word here is a play on the word “Panthera” which was one of the names of the Roman soldier believed to been the biological father of Jesus (Yeshu, 2006)

[7] Of course, looking at that quote from Isaiah, one has to wonder why they called him Jesus and not Emmanuel, which was required to fulfill the prophecy?

[8] The December mating was meant to mimic the planting of the wheat in December, wheat being the main crop in Israel.

[9] Dionysus was also said to have been born after 7 months. The number 7 was sacred not only to the Jews, but even earlier, to the Pythagoreans, who considered 7 the number of the virgin, because it was the only one of the prime numbers (1 – 10) which could not be divided evenly into 360 (the number of degrees in a circle). Thus, the rumor that Jesus was born at 7 months may not be entirely accurate, and may be another example of the symbolism replete in the Bible. It may be true, however, that he was born earlier than expected (i.e., prior to September).

[10] Having sex prior to the specific time “…was not regarded as a serious sin in Jewish society.” (Harvey, 1970, p.19). In fact, it was commonplace among the Jews (Craveri, 1967, p. 17); more so in Judea; less common in Galilee (Spoto, 1998, p. 20)

[11] The name Mary was synonymous with “Sister”. This practice is continued even today among various sects.

[12] Note the comment in Josephus about Essene couples not having sex after the woman was pregnant matches the passage in Matthew (1:25) that Joseph and Mary refrained from sex until after Jesus was born.

[13] Thiering, 1992, pp. 44-46.

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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #64 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:17pm
 
Part 5: Jesus was nailed to the cross?

CHURCH POSITION 
“Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe." (Gospel of John, 20:25)

"And then they drew the nails from the hands of the Lord and laid him on the earth. And the whole earth shook and there came a great fear. Then the sun shone again..." (Gospel of Peter, 6:20)

SCHOLARS 
“it was normal Roman practice to bind the convict to the cross by ropes, not to nail him to it.” (Cohn, 1963, p. 219)

"These obiter dicta by Justin, Tertullian, and Origen set the mold for Western artists to portray Jesus nailed to the cross instead of bound to it." (Dimont, 1991, p. 122)

"...of the three oldest representations of the crucifixion...one, a brown jasper...shows Jesus hung by his wrists from the cross...These triats correspond to Roman practice..." (Morton Smith, 1978, p. 61)

THE REALITY 
Tradition says that Jesus was crucified by driving nails into his hands and feet. Jesus’ legs weren’t broken, as were the legs of his unfortunate companions, probably because of the long-standing belief that resurrection was only possible for someone whose bones had not been broken. Jesus was not left on the cross, but taken down after a few hours.

To consider the evidence, we have to examine a number of issues: (1) Did the normal mode of crucifixion involve nailing hands and feet? (2) Is it possible to secure someone to a cross by driving nails through their hands? (3) If not through their hands, through their wrists or forearms? (4) And how likely is it that Jesus was treated in this way?

Overview of Crucifixion

According to Cicero (106-43 B.C.), crucifixion was “the worst and cruelest” form of torture (Contra Verres, II, 5-14).  It was intended to inflict pain as well as serve as a deterrent to others, and hence was usually carried out in a public place. The victim was attached to two pieces of wood (usually shaped in a T, called a tau or Saint Anthony’s cross), by nails or ropes [[1]], and left to hang. Death was by suffocation, which could be delayed by pressing one’s feet against a titled ledge (sedula in Latin, pegma in Greek) midway down the post, if available.  If the victim survived too long, their legs were broken, preventing them from pressing their feet for support, and rushing on the eventual suffocation. However, this was rarely done since the idea was to extend the punishment as long as possible, not only for the sake of the pain, for also the public deterrent. Typically, victims were left on the cross as food for wild beasts and birds of prey (Hengel, 1977), so the cross was just high enough off the ground to let animals feed; and typically “the agony of the crucified never ended in less than two days (Craveri, 1967, p. 418).”

Did the normal mode of crucifixion involve nailing through the hands and feet?

To determine the “normal mode” we can look at three sources of information: anthropological, graphic, and textual. Anthropological is obviously the most powerful form, for no matter what pictures we have and no matter what the texts tell us, nothing is as persuasive as a good corpse.

Anthropological: We have only one corpse from this era who shows the effects of crucifixion. He was 1 of 35 individuals discovered in 1968 at Giv’at ha Mivtar, in northeastern Jerusalem. The adult male had been 5’5” tall. His arms had been hung to the cross, not nailed, and his feet had been crossed and nailed to a small olive wood plaque set behind his heel. His legs had not been broken. So, the anthropological evidence suggests tying the hands but nailing the feet.

Graphic: The earliest artifacts show people being hung from the cross, not nailed. Sometimes their feet were nailed, sometimes not. A brown jasper gem, dated from 200 A.D., shows the victim hung by his wrists. Neither his hands nor his feet were nailed. An equally ancient artifact, scribbled on the walls of the Imperial Palace in Palatine Hill in Rome between 193 and 235 A.D., shows a crucified figure also hung, not nailed (Morton, 1977). A ring seal amulet dating from the Third Century depicting Dionysus crucified also omits any signs of being nailed (Freke & Gandy, 1999). So graphic evidence from the earliest artifacts supports the anthropological evidence.

Textual: There is very little textual evidence for the method of affixing people to crosses. Most accounts  simply state that people were crucified without mentioning exactly how, although Josephus in the Jewish Wars (V) specifically says that they were nailed. However, he was writing about events in 70 C.E., and the situation involved the mass execution of thousands of Jews. Moreover, the avowed goal of crucifixion was to provide an extended death, not only as a punishment but also for the purposes of demonstrating to the public. From that perspective, a long slow death was preferred, and this suggests tying, not nailing, since nailing a person to the cross could bring on sudden death from severing an artery.

Look at this description from the martyrdom of Andrew as described in this 2nd Century text:

"...Then he sent him [Andrew] off to be crucified and commanded the executioners not to impale him with nails but to stretch him out tied up with ropes [and] to leave his knees uncut, supposing that by doing so he would punish Andrew more severely... (Acts of Andrew, 51.1)."

In summary, while textual evidence suggests that nails were used (at least with regard to mass executions), based on the only corpse ever found and all the earliest graphic evidence, it appears that, in general, individuals were crucified by being tied, not nailed to the cross. Surely some people were nailed, and especially in the case of mass crucifixions or when a rapid death was desirable, but it’s impossible to know what proportion were nailed vs. what proportion were tied. It seems most likely that individuals were tied, not only because this is supported by the anthropological and graphic evidence, but also because it holds true to one of the main goals of crucifixion – a long and painful death.

Is it Possible to Secure Someone to a Cross by Driving Nails Through their Hands?

While it was not uncommon for someone to be nailed to the cross, nailing through the hands was rarely done because the composition of the hands was not sufficient to support a person’s body weight. Thus, nailing through the hands would result in a person’s hands splitting and the person would fall to the ground.

If not through their hands, through their wrists or forearms?

If nailed, a person was nailed between the bones of the forearm or the wrist. The executioner had to be careful not to sever an artery, but when done successfully, a person could be suspended in this manner, assuming there was support from a sedula. Despite this being the only way to nail someone to a cross, most graphic depictions of Jesus’ death still show the nails being driven through his hands.

How Likely is it that Jesus Would be Nailed to the Cross?

It seems that the normal way to fix Jesus to the cross would have been to tie him, not nail him. Yet the traditional view is that he was nailed. Where did this come from? Neither the Gospels of Mark nor Matthew nor Luke mention anything about Jesus being nailed to the cross. John’s description of the crucifixion also omits any reference to being nailed to the cross, but  the Gospel of John does say that Jesus “…showed them his hands and his side (20:20).” It is only when Thomas says: “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe (20:25).”  Later (20:27) Jesus replies - "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thus, only from John 20:20-27 comes the tradition.

What can we infer from this? Why is the issue of Jesus being nailed to the cross absent from the first three gospels, and only present in the Gospel of John? And why does the Gospel of John claim that Jesus is nailed through the hands, when we know this is not physically possible, and if he were nailed at all, it would be through the wrists?

One possibility for the fact that only the Gospel of John mentions that Jesus was nailed is that by the time the Gospel of John was written (more than 100 years after Jesus’ death), critics of the Jesus story [[2]] had pointed out that if Jesus had only been on the cross for a few hours, then it was unlikely that he would have died. For example, the two Zealots crucified alongside him were still alive and their legs had to be broken to hasten their death, and it was well known that death by crucifixion could take days (see Josephus). By the time the Gospel of John was written in the Second Century, there were rumors that Jesus had not died on the cross, and so the addition of the nails and the spear may be an apologist strategy to explain why he died so suddenly. We see a similar apologist strategy in the Gospel of Matthew (28:12-15) which sought to answer the criticisms of the empty tomb theory by positing a “plausible” alternate theory [[3]]. In fact, some scholars maintain that “doubting Thomas” is specifically inserted into the Gospel of John to deal with the broader issues of doubt about the Gospel’s authenticity throughout the Roman world. Thomas, for example, is not a doubter in any of the earlier gospels, and certainly not a doubter in his own gospel. Yet in the Gospel of John, Thomas’s skepticism is mentioned more than once (e.g., 14:5; 20:27).

A second possibility for the story’s inclusion is the OT prophesy about a pierced Messiah [[4]]. Large parts of the Gospels were written not because they reported historical fact, but because they referred back to OT prophecies (Ehrman, 2006). Indeed, Professor Gerd Ludemann’s (2001) extensive analysis of the New Testament has this to say about John 20:27 – “…the narrative is a creation of the evangelist, who in it makes concrete the motif of doubt also known from other resurrection stories. The historical value is nil…(p. 582).”

Finally, it must be noted that John 20:27 invites Thomas to put his finger in Jesus’ hands and side. Can Jesus be touched? The Gospel of John contradicts itself in 20:17 when it has Jesus say to Mary, earlier that day  – “…Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.” How then can he now be asking Thomas to touch him?

Thus, there are good reasons why the story may not be historically accurate and probably an invention of the writers of the Gospel of John or taken from the oral stories told by others that the writers of John put down.

An additional reason to believe the story may not be historically accurate is the simple fact that nailing through the hands was not physically possible. To counter this claim, some historians have argued that the Greek word used for hand(s) (xeipa, xeipac) could also apply to a person’s wrists (xepiou), so that when the Gospel of John claims that Jesus showed Thomas his “hands” (20:27) it really meant “wrists”. These apologists point to one verse in Acts (12:7) in which chains fall from Peter’s wrists, and indeed, in some translations of Acts, xepiou is translated as hands (e.g., King James, American Standard). However, in other versions it is translated as wrists (e.g., New Revised Standard, New International), so the analogy doesn’t necessarily apply. In any event, Acts and the Gospel of John were written at different times by different people who used different forms of Greek, so it’s not valid to compare the wording in one book as a proof of the meaning in another book.

More importantly, in Greek there are separate words for wrists and hands (just as there are in English), so one has to assume that when the Gospel of John refers to hands they are talking about hands and not wrists. For example, when the Gospel of John refers to fingers (20:25, 20:27) or being slapped with hands (19:3) different words were used, so had the Gospel writers intended to use the word for wrists, surely they would have used it.

Against the single testimony of the Gospel of John, which requires us to translate the word “hands” as “wrists”, we have numerous descriptions of the death of Jesus which specifically refer to him being hung, not nailed. Here are some examples…


·         “The God of our ancestors raised up Jesus whom you had killed by hanging…” (Acts 5:30. See also Acts 10:39 and 13:29). 

·         “On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu.”  (Sanhedrin 43a)

·         "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' (Galatians 3:13).”

·         “He himself carried up our sins in his body to the tree…” (1 Peter 2:24)

·         “One hanged was I, and yet not hanged (Acts of John, 101).”

In summary – while textual evidence suggests that being nailed to the cross was common for mass executions, the only surviving corpse of a crucified person was tied, not nailed to the cross. Moreover, all early graphic representations of crucifixion show individuals being tied, not nailed. What evidence is there, then, that Jesus was nailed? Only the report in the Gospel of John. No other gospel makes this claim. Moreover, the claim is presented in a contradictory position, asking a disciple to touch his hands while earlier telling a disciple that he could not be touched until he had ascended. And the claim in the Gospel of John is that Jesus was nailed through his hands, a possibility that almost all scholars dismiss. Moreover, there were good reasons for the writers of the Gospel of John to invent this story, and many leading scholars believe it has no historical basis.

When you look at the evidence as a whole, it seems far more likely that Jesus was tied to the cross, not nailed.
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[1] Cohn (1963) – “it was normal Roman practice to bind the convict to the cross by ropes, not to nail him to it.” (p. 219)

[2] Including Jews, Jewish Christians, and competing early Christian sects such as the Docetists and the Gnostics.

[3] “And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave much money unto the soldiers, saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and rid you of care. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying was spread abroad among the Jews, and continueth until this day.”

[4] Zechariah 12:10 – “…then they will look on Me whom they pierced…”

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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #65 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:19pm
 
Part 6: Jesus was beaten?

CHURCH POSITION 
“Some began to spit on him, to blindfold him, and to strike him, saying to him ‘Prophesy!’ The guards also took him over and beat him.” (Mark 14:65)

"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. And they platted a crown of thorns and put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand; and they kneeled down before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! And they spat upon him, and took the reed and smote him on the head." (Matthew 27:28-30)

"Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him. And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and arrayed him in a purple garment; and they came unto him, and said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they struck him with their hands." (John 19:1-3)

SCHOLARS 
“...if Jesus suffered, it was from the taunts rather than from the blows, from the assault rather on his dignity than on his body." (Cohn, 1963, p. 202)

"The basic message transposed onto Jesus [in Mel Gibson's film "The Passion"] struck me as offensive. In this case it was something like "More pain, more gain": people have a lot of sins to atone for, so Jesus goes at it with full vigor, being beaten to a bloody pulp before our very eyes....This strikes me as at odds with how the Gospels portray Jesus' last hours, and I can't help but find the message a bit repulsive." (Ehrman, 2004, p. 187)

THE REALITY 
Mel Gibson notwithstanding, there is very little evidence that Jesus suffered from a severe beating before crucifixion. For example, Luke says that on the night before “the men who were holding Jesus began to mock him and beat him (22:63).” Matthew says that: “and after flogging Jesus, he handed him over to be crucified (27:26).” John notes that Jesus was “flogged” (19:1) and that the guards were “striking him on the face (19:3).” Mark’s description is the most harsh – “some began to spit on him, to blindfold him, and to strike him, saying to him, ‘Prophesy’. The guards also took him over and beat him (14:65).” Later, he notes: “So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released Barabbas for them; and after flogging Jesus, he handed him over to be crucified (15:15).”

Needless to say, being struck in the face, beaten, and flogged is not very gentle treatment. But the issue is not whether Jesus was beaten (which he obviously was), the issue is whether the perception that he was severely beaten (ala The Passion) is true.  In those days there were two types of instruments used to flog hapless victims – the flagella which was an ordinary leather strap, and the flagra, which was an iron chain with spikes made of iron or bone.  The more severe instrument, the flagra, was not in general use and was reserved for slaves who committed heinous crimes. Most likely Jesus would have been punished with the flagella (or strap) since there is no indication that the punishment in this case was life threatening or even that he was seriously injured as a result [1]. Indeed, the Gospel of John indicates that Jesus was “carrying the cross by himself (19:17)” which clearly implies that he was not injured, and none of the other Gospel writers who claim that Simon of Cyrene carried the cross (Luke 23:26; Mark 15:21; Matthew: 27:32), indicate that he carried the cross because Jesus was unable to do so. Moreover, while on the cross, Jesus is conscious and sufficiently self-possessed to carry on conversations with the other two victims, address his mother and inquire after her future treatment, etc. Obviously his physical punishment had not incapacitated him.

In an extensive analysis of the laws and customs surrounding the trial and death of Jesus, Israeli Supreme Court Justice Haim Cohn concluded: “if Jesus suffered, it was from the taunts rather than from the blows, from the assault rather on his dignity than on his body (p. 202).” He continues: “no dependable tradition or information exists that there were any aftereffects, wounds, or other external injury…(p. 202).”

Had Jesus’ punishment been great, the New Testament writers would surely have noted it.  For example, compare those descriptions of Jesus’ treatment with the treatment of Polycarp: “…their skin was ripped to shreds by whips, revealing the very anatomy of their flesh, down to the inner veins and arteries…(2:2).” Clearly, Jesus’ punishment did not rise to these standards. Cohn affirms this position. He notes: “…if the evangelists did not describe the pitiable condition of a scourged Jesus, it was because there was none, and that he was in fact unscathed, his outward appearance unchanged (p. 202).”

While there is no evidence that Jesus was harshly treated, there is some evidence to the contrary, that his treatment was stellar. The Gospel of Nicodemus, dated to the Fourth Century [2], claims that Pilate instructed his soldiers: “Let Jesus be brought with gentleness (I, 1-2).” Most scholars dismiss the validity of this document, as shall we, however, it is worth noting. But Cohn (1963), in his exhaustive examination of the trial of Jesus, noted: “not only were Jesus’ hands not bound to the beams of the cross, but he had not even to bear it himself [3] (p. 201).” In addition, he noted: “not only was he not divested in nakedness, but he was given his own garments when led to the place of crucifixion…[and]…the usual beatings on the way were not his portion either (p. 207).”  He concluded: “the soldiers must have taken pity on him (p. 201).”

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[1] There are cases reported in Josephus in which a victim of flogging died during the process, although these cases were rare. As a prelude to crucifixion, flogging was designed to make the victim less likely to resist, and the extent of the flogging was left to the Roman Lictors to decide. Given Jesus’ demeanor, it undoubtedly did not call for an extensive flogging to get Jesus to be subservient.

[2] Mention of the Acts of Pilate, that constitute the bulk of the Gospel of Nicodemus, was referred to centuries earlier by Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Eusebius; however, the earliest copy of the document is traditionally ascribed to 425 A.D.

[3] The normal procedure would have been to bind the hands to the cross and whip the victim while he carried the cross.

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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #66 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:20pm
 
Part 7: Jesus was in his 30s at death?

THE REALITY 
The idea that Jesus was 30 years old when he died came about from a confluence of errors and mis-interpretations. The first error was the long standing belief that Jesus was born in the year 0 or 1, because that was the date at which BC - before Christ - and AD -the year of the lord - started. The second error was that Jesus started his ministry at age 30 and then died during the first year. All of this is incorrect.

With regard to Jesus' birthdate, unfortunately this was an error made by a 6th century Monk in dating the birth of Jesus, and most people now accept that Jesus was born in 6 BC when Herod was the King.
The next mistake is believing that when Luke says "about 30 years of age" he actually means that Jesus was 30. Not only does he say "about", Luke's work is notoriously inaccurate, so the phrase "about 30 years" leaves wide latitude.
The next mistake is the assumption that Jesus died during his first year or ministry, which the 2nd error places at the age of 30.
Thus, Jesus is born in the year 0, starts his ministry at age 30, and dies in the 1st year of his ministry = Jesus died at age 30.

So, if he wasn't 30 years old when he died, how old was he? There are claims that Jesus escaped his execution and lived to the ripe old ages of 106 and even 120. Putting these aside for the moment, if we accept the common theory that Jesus died as a result of his crucifixion or hanging, there are several ways to date his death. It can be dated with respect to the central players (i.e., Pilate, the High Priest Caiaphas, and John the Baptist) for whom there is a reasonable amount of historical information. Or it can be dated with respect to the Gospel text, or even with respect to other canonical publications. Hopefully, all three ways coincide.

Historical Data

The best way to date the death of Christ is to look for the key players in his death drama, about whom there is considerable information, and to establish the context surrounding Jesus’ death. We begin by acknowledging that Jesus’ death followed the death of John the Baptist, and occurred while Caiaphas was High Priest and while Pilate was Prefect. We have reason to believe that John the Baptist met his gruesome death in 35 A.D. [1], Caiaphas was deposed by Lucius Vitellius, the legate of Syria, in 36 A.D. and Pilate was recalled to Rome at the end of 36 A.D [2]. Ipso facto, Jesus must have been crucified in the year 36 A.D. Having been born in 6 B.C. and having died in 36 A.D. means that Jesus was in his 40s when he died, probably 42 years old.

The Gospel Record

Further proof that Jesus was in his 40s when he died comes directly from the Gospel of John. Jesus is discussing the destruction of the temple and he says: “Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, ‘This temple has been under construction for 46 years, and you will raise it up in 3 days?’ But he was speaking of the temple of his body (John 2:20-21).” John points out that later, when he is crucified, Jesus’ disciples remembered his prophecy of the 3 days; however, no one seems to recall the 46 years. Taken at his word, Jesus is clearly saying that he is 46 years old, and that when he dies, he will resurrect in 3 days. If Jesus was 46 years old when he died in 36 A.D., it means he was born in 10 B.C., which is theoretically possible, although 6 B.C. is a more probable date.

We find further proof that Jesus is in his 40s from the Gospel of John. Jesus is in a Temple, close to the Mount of Olives, talking to the Scribes and Pharisees. The subject turns to Abraham, and the “Jews” ask Jesus: “You are not yet 50 years old, and have you seen Abraham? (8:57).”Jesus answers: “…before Abraham was, I am”, but the important thing to observe here is that the questioners describe Jesus as not yet being 50. Were he in his 20s or 30s, they would have chosen a different year, but by saying that he is not yet 50, they clearly identify him as being in his forties.

Other Christian Sources

The noted Christian Irenaeus (130-202 A.D.) in Against Heresies (2:22:6) believed that Jesus was nearly 50 years old when he died.

All this evidence shows a significant divergence from the commonly accepted idea that Jesus was in his 30s when he died. All three methods indicate Jesus died in his 40s, between 42 and 46. It also suggests that Jesus’ ministry was significantly longer than the 1 to 3 years that are traditionally attributed to it, because if he began his ministry when he was about 30, and he died between 42 and 46, his ministry was 12 or more years, not 1 or 3.

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[1] Schonfield, The Jesus Party, 1974, p.51

[2] Josephus, Antiquities, XVIII, 90, vol ix. P.65

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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #67 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:22pm
 
Part 8: Gospels written in 1st century?

SCHOLARS 
"There are various evidences which suggest that Luke made use of the works of Josephus, and it may well be that the two-part Luke-Acts was inspired by Josephus' two-part book Against Apion, published around A.D. 100." (Schonfield, 1975, p. 35)

“No work of art of any kind has ever been discovered, no painting, or engraving, no sculpture, or other relic of antiquity, which may be looked upon as furnishing additional evidence of the existence of these gospels, and which was executed earlier than the latter part of the second century.” (Waite, 1992 p. 346)

"My own impression...was that the arguments for placing the Gospels as early as the end of the first century were rather weak. I found that the respected theological scholar Helmut Koester, editor of the Harvard Theological Review, made a good case for a later date, early second century, for most of the Gospels." (Ellegard, 1999, p. 3)

The first [factor] was the evolution of a canon of New Testament writings. Although oral tradition continued to be important right up till the end of the second century, most traditions had found written form by its early decades..." (Johnson, 1976, p. 54)

"What, then, are my reasons for putting Mark as 90 instead of, with most theologians, at about 70? (Wells, 1988, p. 107)

"The first reasonably complete copy we have of Galatians... dates to about 200 C.E." (Ehrman, 2006, p. 60)

"...the Gnostics began to write gospels at about the same time John composed his - around 110 - 140 AD." (Dimont, 1991, p. 159)

"...by the time the Gospels came to be written in the form that we know them, the finer details of the administration in Judea [ ie., the difference between a Procurator and a Prefect] had been forgotten." (Marsh, 1975, p. 72)

"By the time of Claudius, around 46, the title...had been changed to 'procurator' and Tacitus made the mistake, in about 115, of attaching this title to Pilate." (Wroe, 1999, p. 65)

"The Epistle of Barnabas...was probably composed...between 96 and 98 CE. It shows no knowledge whatsoever of any New Testament texts...(Crossan, 1995, p. 122)."

THE REALITY 
There is so much evidence that the Gospels were written in the Second Century that it’s hard to believe that the vast majority of scholars still stick stubbornly to the belief that they are a First Century production. The earliest known Christian writings are the letters of the Apostle Paul, dated sometime between 48 and 58 A.D.; but there are no copies of these original documents [1], and there are many questions about their authenticity [2]. Some people believe that the earliest versions of the four Gospels were written between 60 A.D. (Mark) and 100 A.D. (John), but there is no proof of these early dates, and some scholars believe that all the Gospels were written after 100 A.D. (e.g., Acharya, 1999; Ellegard, 1999; Keeler, 1965; Koester, 1980; Wheless, 1990). Here is some evidence to support this theory:

The first epistle of Clement of Rome (c 64-96 A.D.), which is reasonably dated to 95 A.D., makes no mention of any of the Gospels although it does mention the epistles of Paul. This is a strange omission had the Gospels been circulating at that time.
The Gospel of Luke borrows heavily from material in Josephus’ (37–100 A.D.) later works [3], especially Life and Against Apion, implying that the Gospel of Luke was not composed (much less published) until after 100 A.D., since Josephus’ later works weren’t published before 95 A.D.
None of the Gospels are mentioned in the letters of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, which can be dated from 110 A.D.
Archeologically, the earliest dated portion of any gospel is a tiny fragment consisting of a few words from what could be the Gospel of John, and this dates to 125 AD (Funk & Hoover, 1993, p. 9).

The earliest allusion to any of the Gospels is from about 130 A.D. in the works of Bishop Papias, who refers to a collection of Jesus’ sayings/oracles in a Hebrew book whose author is said to be the disciple Matthew [4]. This book of sayings may refer to the lost document Q, but it obviously does not refer to the Gospel of Matthew, as we know it. Papias also mentions recollections of the disciple Peter, recorded by his secretary Mark. Though neither of these references is to what we now know as the Gospels of Mark and of Matthew, they begin to suggest that some things resembling these Gospels were in circulation after 130 A.D. Yet they were certainly not very well known since other prominent Christian writings from this period do not contain any references to them (e.g., Polycarp, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Exigetica, The Book of Hermas).

The first mention of the Gospels, as we know them, comes around 140 A.D. in the work of Aristides of Athens who refers to “the holy Gospel writing”. Yet we can’t be certain that these are the same Gospels. Shortly thereafter, a Christian reformer named Marcion (110–160 A.D.) broke with the traditional church over the issue of Jesus’ divinity, and set up his own church, including in its writings a stripped down version of the Gospel of Luke. In 150 A.D. Justin Martyr (c 100-163 A.D.) of Rome composed the first of his two Apologies, in which he specifically refers to the writings of Luke, Matthew, and Mark as “memoirs” (in the tradition of Papias 20 years earlier), but clearly not in the form of the Gospels as we know them (Waite, 1992). About 10 years later, Justin’s student, Tatian (c 110-185 A.D.), brought together the four Gospels and combined them into one harmonized book which he called the Diatessaron, written in Tatian’s native language of Syric. And by 180 A.D. Irenaeus (c 130-202 A.D.) wrote in his principal work, Against Heresies, that: “The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds…Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these…” (3.11.7-8).

Another indication that the gospels were written in the Second Century comes from the genealogy in the Gospel of Matthew. Herein the inclusion of four women with "questionable" backgrounds is usually taken by scholars to be an attempt by the writers of Matthew to discount the rumors that Mary had an affair with a Roman archer. In other words, if these four women with questionable backgrounds nonetheless led exalted lives, then Mary's questionable background can be discounted too. While there is near unanimity that this is the rationale, as far as we know, rumors about Mary are a Second Century phenomenon, mentioned for the first time in Celsus, around 175 AD. Hence, any remedies to offset these rumors must also have been from the Second Century.

Continuing with the Gospel of Matthew, those writers attempted damage control again in the passage about the resurrection, in which they claimed "this story [stealing the body of Jesus from the tomb] is still told among the Jews to this day (28:15).” In fact, there are no references to this story in the literature of the First Century and only in the Second Century is it mentioned by writers such as Tertullian [c. 155 - 230] and Justin Martyr [c. 100 - 165]. So, if the writers of Matthew are writing when these rumors are “still being told”, they must be writing in the Second Century, not the First.

Or consider the Gospel of Luke. Luke goes to great lengths to tone down the apocalyptic emphasis clearly present in Mark [5]. Ehrman (1999) notes: “Luke continues to think that the end of the age is going to come in his own lifetime. But he does not seem to think that it was supposed to come in the lifetime of Jesus’ companions. Why not? Evidently because he was writing after they had died… (p. 130).” Now consider what the “lifetime of Jesus’ companions” involved. Assuming Jesus died in 36 AD and assuming that some of his followers were 12 to 15 years old at the time (a reasonable assumption, particularly considering that “boy” is often mentioned), and assuming that it wasn’t unusual for a person to live to be 60 years old in those days (some people are said to live to be 100, but that’s probably an exaggeration), it means that the boys who attended Jesus would have lived until the end of the First Century. So if the writers of the Gospel of Luke were writing after the followers of Jesus were all dead, ipso facto, they were writing at the very end of the First Century, or more likely, in the Second Century. If you narrow the definition of "followers" to refer only to the disciples, we have to consider John, son of Zedebee, who was said to have lived to be 100. If John was 30 when Jesus died, and lived another 70 years, it still places the writing of Luke into the Second Century.

A further indication that the gospels are Second Century inventions comes from a careful study of the non-Christian writings (Van Voorst, 2000). The earliest works by Thallos (55 AD), Mara bar Serapion (73 AD), Pliny the Younger (100 AD), Tacitus (116 AD), and Suetonius (120 AD) contain virtually no historical information about Jesus, despite mentions of Christ, Chrestus, etc. But starting with Lucian of Samosata (165 AD), Jesus is mentioned as a "crucified sophist" and then with Celsus (175 AD) there is a plethora of historical information. Something happened between 120 AD and 170 AD that the non-historical Jesus suddenly assumed his historical mantle. Our assumption is that the appearance of the gospels, in the early to mid Second Century, accounts for this phenomenon. Had the Gospels been circulating in the First Century, historical material about Jesus would have appeared in the works of these writers early non-Christian writers such as Thallos, Pliny, and Tacitus.

We get still another indication that the Gospels were written in the Second Century from Pilate's title, Prefect. The office of Prefect was abolished around 46 AD, 10 years after Pilate had been removed from office. In 115 AD, Tacitus made the error of referring to Pilate as a Procurator, instead of a Prefect, probably because by that time the distinction had disappeared (Wroe, 1999, p. 65). Yet the Gospels refer to Pilate as a Procurator. Had they been written shortly after Jesus' death, the writers would have known about the difference between the Prefect and Procurator, and surely would have remembered the title of the longest serving Prefect in Judea. Instead, they use the term Procurator, implying that they are using the Tacitus error or, if not, they are writing at a similar time in which they and Tacitus make the same error. This places the gospel writings into the Second Century.

Another indicator that the Gospels are Second Century inventions comes from the rabid anti-Semitism contained therein. In the very early years, Christians were all Jews. By mid First Century, if the letters of Paul are to be believed, the Gentile movement took hold, but Jews and Gentiles still got along. But it was only after the destruction of the Temple and at the end of the First Century that relationships between Christians and Jews deteriorated, illustrated by the special malediction placed in the central Jewish prayer, the Shermoneh Esrei (aka Sherman Esrei), cursing the Nazarenes and other Christian groups. Thus, the rabid anti-Semitism of the gospels is clearly a Second Century phenomenon. groups, cementing the schism between Christians and Jews. Prior to this date (approximately 90 AD), such vehement anti-Semitism would not have been expected.

Finally, our survey of the early Christian art indicates that prior to the Third Century there are almost no portraits of Jesus in any medium. Had Jesus’ life been celebrated by the gospels as early as the First Century, one would have expected any explosion of artwork in the Second Century. Instead, it is only in the Third Century that we find such an explosion, suggesting that the gospels and the celebration of Jesus’ life is a Second Century phenomenon.

To summarize – Evidence from carbon dating, language analysis (e.g., use of Pilate, rabid anti-Semitism, the allusion to rumors about Mary, etc.) and citation as well as First Century non-Christian sources, show that the Gospels were written in the Second Century. Moreover, inferences from the artwork confirm this conclusion. By 160 A.D. we know, without question, that all four gospels were in circulation, and by 180 A.D. they were considered authoritative. Yet this is more than 100 years after Jesus’ death [6].

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[1]The oldest copy of a letter from Paul (Galatians) is dated at approximately 200 A.D. (Ehrman, 2005, p. 60)

[2] “Of the 13 letters of Paul in the New Testament, seven are accepted as largely authentic. (Freke & Gandy, 2001, p. 233).”

[3] Schonfield (1974), p. 36-43. See also Perkins (1988), p. 229

[4] “Matthew compiled the Sayings in the Aramaic language, and everyone translated them as well as he could (Quoted in Wilson, 1984, p. 44).” Schonfield (1965) translates the word “sayings” as “oracles”. If we accept Schonfield’s translation, the oracles would more clearly represent an early version of the later Gospel.

[5] For example, in Mark 9:1 the Kingdom is God is described as coming “in power”, but when Luke (9:27) copies the section he deletes this phrase.

[6] Many orthodox scholars still stick stubbornly to the traditional earlier dates, however, there is an increasing number of scholars who believe the later dates are more accurate (e.g., Koester, 1980; Ellegard, 1999; Freke & Gandy, 1999). Ellegard (1999) notes that the word synagogue does not appear in 1st  Century writings (such as Paul) but does in 2nd Century texts, and that the word appears in all 4 canonical Gospels (Luke 17 times, Mark 12, Matthew 9, and John 5) thus suggesting their 2nd Century origins. He also notes that in 1st Century writings the early Christians are referred to as “saints” whereas in 2nd Century writings this usage is extremely rare. The only usage of “saint” in the canonical gospels is in Matthew (27:52), again suggesting that the Gospels were written in the 2nd Century.

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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #68 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:24pm
 
Part 9: Empty Tomb?

CHURCH POSITION 
"...and looking up, they see that the stone is rolled back: for it was exceeding great. And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him! " (Mark 16:4-6)


SCHOLARS 
"...the empty tomb is a later legend, introduced by Mark for the first time into the narrative." (Fuller, 1971, p. 52)

"...inner criteria support the supposition that the tomb story and the passion narrative were not originally an organic unity." (Alsup, 1975, p. 96)

"...the narrative of the burial in Mark belongs to the passion traditiion and is ancient. The visit to the tomb is legendary." (Mann, 1986, p. 660)

"I can no longer hold the story of the empty tomb, with all its surrounding details, including the Jerusalem setting, to be anything other than a later legendary addition to the faith story." (Spong, 1994, p. 180)

"There is a fair distribution of the opinion among contemporary scholars that the empty tomb narratives are later additions to the gospel narratives and are separate from the passion accounts." (Thompson, 2006, p. 36)

THE REALITY 

The empty tomb saga is a major issue in studying the historical Jesus. While Paul’s mention of the resurrection is the first historical reference, he doesn’t offer many details; rather, his focus is on the theological importance of the event. It is Mark’s record of the resurrection that offers our first glimpse at what might have actually happened, and the stories in the other Gospels derive from Mark’s account. Since Mark’s “empty tomb” is the lynchpin around which the other three Gospels’ stories revolve, we need to turn our attention there.

The "empty tomb" is a common phrase used to describe the fact that Jesus' dead body is not found in the tomb. In three of the gospels (Matthew, Luke, and John), the tomb is devoid of any person, but in the Gospel of Mark, Mary Magdalene does encounter a "young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe (16:5)." Mark never tells us who this is. A gardener? Jesus? a disciple? an angel? The other gospels will expand and modify this scene, but the bottom line is that Jesus' body is missing and hence the expression "empty tomb".

The Empty Tomb is Literary

Each of the writers of the gospels has their own unique literary style, the most famous example being Matthew's use of the "Jesus is the new Moses" motif. Mark also has a literary style he employes. One of the styles employed by Mark is the "reversal of expectation" motif (Carrier, 2005). Mark likes to shock us. It's a Roman soldier who recognizes Jesus is the Messiah, not the Jews who watch his crucifixion. It is the women who discover him missing, not the men. It is a foreigner (Simon of Cyrene) who helps him carry the cross, not his own disciples. etc. So part of this reversal of expectation is that when they come to the tomb, it is empty.

The adoption of a literary style does not negate the fact that the historical Jesus may have done this or that, or said this or that, but the overwhelming number of instances “begs credulity” as a true historical account. In other words, did all these unexpected things really happen, or is this just part of the Gospel of Mark's dramatic style?

We can't know for sure. But since the empty tomb fits so well into Mark's literary style, this does raise a "red flag" and give us reason to look more closely to see what evidence exists for this as a historical event.

The Empty Tomb is Derivative

Carrier (2005) offers an extensive analysis of the “empty tomb” concept in the Gospel of Mark, noting some of the possible historical, religious, and literary antecedents, which include…

the myth of Osiris, who was persecuted by 72 conspirators (the Sanhedrin had 71 members + Judas = 72), whose dead body was sealed in a casket (cave), and who arose during the full moon (Passover) after three days.
passages in Psalms, especially Jesus’ cry on the cross (Mk. 15:34; Ps. 22:1), the taunts of onlookers (Mk. 15:29, Ps 22:7), casting lots for the garments (Mk. 15:24, Ps 22:18), piercing the body (Ps. 22:16), and the third day resurrection (Ps. 24).
Orphic theology, dating back as far as 400 B.C., that speaks of “white cypress on the right hand side” of the tomb (Mk. 16:5), the guardians in the tomb (Mk. 16:6) who advise that the searchers must seek elsewhere (Mk. 16:7), and the admonition to drink of the sacred waters (Mk. 14:24).

It’s likely that the writers of the Gospel of Mark were familiar with these myths and legends, and this may account for the close similarities.  Indeed, it brings into question whether or not Mark’s account is truly historical or merely derivative, a retelling of the myths and legends already identified. And without Mark’s account as a firm basis, any further retelling by Matthew, Luke, and John is without empirical merit.

Again, the fact that the empty tomb is derivative as well as literary does not mean it is not historical, but it does raise questions. Let's continue.

Would Jesus Have Been Buried At All?

Not only is the idea of the empty tomb suspect due to the many literary precursors, the idea does not square with the practices at the time (Crossan, 1991; Hengel, 1977; McCane, 2003). To the Romans, crucifixion was both a punishment and a deterrent, so they tended to deny burial to people who were crucified. Typically victims were left to hang for days, their corpses rotting in the sun, picked clean by the birds, the pathetic remains savaged by dogs. [1] Would an exception have been made for Jesus? One has to ask: “Why?” After all, according to the Gospels, he was found guilty of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin and guilty of treason by the Romans. At the time of his death, contrary to the popular opinion that his followers were a small group of rag-tag fishermen, Jesus had gathered a large following and a wide support system. To show mercy or favoritism to him would only encourage his followers and add some substance to his claims, an act the Romans would not likely take.

Would Jesus Be Given an Honorable Burial?

Moreover, according to Jewish law, having been found guilty of blasphemy, Jesus would not have been entitled to an honorable burial. As an executed criminal, he would have been buried in a public graveyard and denied such niceties as anointing, wrappings in linen, placement in a tomb, etc. (Lowder, 2005; Schonfield, 1965). Given their influence with the Roman authorities, the Sanhedrin surely would have insisted on a dishonorable burial, something that the Romans would have been inclined to anyway. Indeed, there is evidence of such a dishonorable burial in the Secret Book of James, written about the same time as the Gospels of Luke and John (i.e., early First Century), which indicates that Jesus was buried “in the sand [2] (v. 5).”

Crossan (1994) has studied the evidence and concludes:

“If the Romans did not observe the Deuteronomic decree, Jesus’ dead body would have been left on the cross for the wild beasts…If the Romans did observe the decree, the soldiers would have made certain Jesus was dead and then buried him themselves as part of their job (p. 154).”

Spong (1994) says: “His body was probably dumped unceremoniously into a common grave, the location of which has never been known (p. 225).”

Had Jesus Been Buried, Where is His Tomb?

Another factor that brings Jesus’ tomb burial into question is the fact that there was no tradition prior to the Fourth Century of veneration of his tomb or grave sight. Surely the man who inspired thousands of people during his lifetime, and hundreds of thousands thereafter, would have also inspired people to visit his tomb, if it existed! This is true especially since the tomb served two important spiritual functions – his death served as atonement for the sins of humanity, and his resurrection served as a sign of his divinity. This omission is made more poignant when we realize that the tombs of lesser men were well known at the time of their deaths. For example, John the Baptist’s tomb was said to be in Samaria-Sebaste [3]. Herod Agrippa I was buried at Caesarea, James the Just was buried near Jerusalem, Lazarus’ tomb was in Bethany, etc. (Finegan, 1969).

The Empty Tomb and Disasters

As if all these problems were not sufficient to question the historicity of the empty tomb, we have the additional problem of Mark’s other unsupportable claims surrounding the death of Jesus. For example, Mark records: “When it was noon, darkness came over the whole land, until three in the afternoon (15:33)”, and later he notes: “Then Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom (15:37-38).” Neither one of these events are mentioned in any non-Gospel sources, yet given their magnitude, one would expect some reference to them, especially in the works of Josephus or Pliny. This lack of reference leads many authors to conclude that Mark was simply using symbolism  here (e.g., Spong, 1994), yet if he uses symbolism in these two cases, why isn’t the empty tomb another case of symbolism. Indeed, Carrier (2005) makes exactly this case – the empty tomb is symbolic, not historical.

Joseph of Arimathaea

Without Joseph, Jesus was slated for an ignoble death. Let’s look closely at the profile of Joseph. The gospels say he is from Arimathaea, but there never was a place called Arimathaea. He shows up at the last minute, is never referenced prior to his mission, and as soon as he completes it, he disappears. He is said, variously, to be a follower (Mark), a disciple (Matthew) or a secret disciple (John). In two accounts (Mark, Luke) he is a Sanhedrim member and in one account (Matthew) he is a rich man. In three accounts he handles Jesus’ body by himself, and moves the stone by himself, and in one case (John) he is helped by Nicodemus. In those same three accounts he wraps Jesus in linen, and in the fourth account he includes 100 pounds of spices.

When Joseph asks for Jesus’ body, three of the gospels (Matthew, Luke, John) tell us that Pilate simply gave it to him. In Mark, Pilate marvels that Jesus is already dead and asks for assurance from a centurion, then gives him the body.

These inconsistencies don’t necessarily invalidate the historicity of Joseph, but they don’t give us a firm handle on his existence either. In any event, being a good Jew, Joseph would be bound by the Jewish conventions. Remember, Jesus was a Jew and he wasn’t seeking to start a new religion, he was seeking to reform the existing religion. Since Jesus was guilty of blasphemy (Mark 14:64), he was not entitled to an honorable death, and a good Jew like Joseph would not be able to provide one for him.

Moreover, who is Joseph to convince Pilate to give him Jesus’ body. Not being related to Jesus, Joseph would have no claim to the body. And why would Pilate release it to him? It could only cause Pilate grief down the line, and there was no upside. From what we know of Pilate, he was not the kind of person who would do something like that.

Speedy Joseph?

If you put aside all of these issues with regard to Joseph, you still have to contend with the time factor. How does this old guy get around so quickly. Thompson (2006) notes: "Joseph would have to have acted with great dispatch to go to Pilate, obtain permission to bury Jesus, return to the scene of the crucifixion, remove the body from the cross, wrap it and lay it in the tomb, all before sundown (p. 43)." Consider where Pilate was and where the cross was [4], add in the time it takes to get an audience with Pilate, etc. and it's virtually impossible for Joseph to accomplish these tasks.

All these issues bring into question whether or not Joseph ever existed, or was merely a literary technique invented to get Jesus from the cross into a tomb. Spong (1994) refers to the story of Joseph  as “the realm of legend (p. 226).” Why was this necessary? Because burial in a common grave would not so easily allow for a resurrection. And without the resurrection, as Paul noted so many times, there was no story from a Christian perspective.

Summary

The empty tomb scenario is the lynchpin for the resurrection stories, yet when we examine this scenario, we find many issues that question its historicity. There are three reasons to disbelieve the scenario: (1) the empty tomb has literary precursors in the Osiris and Orphic mythologies, both of which were popular in the First and Second Centuries, (2) its existence is part of a series of literary conventions used by the writers of the Gospel of Mark, called the “reversal of expectation”, and (3) the same gospel which includes the empty tomb also talks about darkness (solar eclipse?) and temple irregularities which are substantial yet not noted in any other histories of the times.

Putting these three issues aside, there are several more issues which make the description of the burial unlikely: (1) as convicted by the Jews and the Romans, Jesus would not have been entitled to an honorable burial, (2) in fact, given the practices in use at the time, he wouldn’t have been buried at all, but rather his body would have been left to the beasts and then the remains thrown into a common grave, and (3) according to the law, having been convicted of blasphemy, Jesus' body did not have to be taken down before sunset.

In order to overcome these objections, the Gospel of Mark posits that a character of questionable identity, against his own religious laws, manages to get an audience with Pilate and without much promoting, has Pilate give him the body of Jesus, even though he is not a relative of Jesus. This same Jew just happens to have a tomb that sits in a garden next to the place where people are crucified [4], an extremely unlikely event given the Jews' aversion to death and dead bodies. Even less likely, Pilate (known for his cruelty), who is specifically in Jerusalem to deal with rebels, allows the body of a rebel leader to be given special treatment.
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[1] This practice undoubtedly accounts for why only one crucified corpse has ever been uncovered.

[2] A church was built over the gravesite in the 4th Century. Nearly a thousand years later, Crusaders built a cathedral there, some portions of which remain extant today.

[3] In the Gospel of John,  Pilate is present at the crucifixion, so the "speedy Joseph" theory is not applicable to this one gospel.

[4] Only in the Gospel of Matthew is the tomb said to be owned by Joseph.

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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #69 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:25pm
 
Part 10: Visit from wise men?

CHURCH POSITION 
“In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem…” (Matthew 2:1)

THE REALITY 
The appearance of the Magi is only told in the Gospel of Matthew, where the Magi (from magos, a Greek word for priests of Ancient Babylon and Persia) from the East, led by a star, go in search of Jesus whom they expect is to be “the King of Jews”. They bring him gold, frankincense (used for royal ceremonies and for cleaning white linen), and myrrh (according to John’s Gospel, used in embalming Jesus). The gold and frankincense were foretold in Isaiah (60:6), the myrrh appears to be an added bonus, or may come from the Song of Solomon (3:6) or 1 Kings (10:1-13).

Although the common myth is that the Magi came to worship Jesus in his crib, the Gospel has them arrive while Jesus is a child (pais in Greek). Indeed, this is the reason that Herod orders the death of all children two years of age or under (not all infants!), since he must reckon that Jesus was born two years before the Magi arrived. Somehow the Magi were transformed into three Kings, although in the Gospel of Matthew they were neither Kings nor were there three of them! This idea came much later, in the Fifth Century, first appearing in the Armenian Gospel of the Infancy, and probably relates to a prophecy in Isaiah (60:3).

Most scholars maintain that the story of the Magi was an invention and not meant to be historical. As told by Matthew, it is another of his prophesies from the Old Testament (Hendrickx, 1984; Spong, 1992). One of the best arguments against its veracity is the fact that the Magi appear this one time and then never again. Can you imagine these wise men traveling thousands of miles to attend the birth of “the King of the Jews”, bringing costly gifts, and then disappearing, never to be heard from again? No subsequent visits? No mention by Mary of this important tribute to her and her son? No, nothing. Their abrupt disappearance suggests that they were simply literary devices, inserted into the text to make a point, and then omitted from future references.

Another issue that questions the veracity of the Magi story is the fact that they go to Herod to inquire about Jesus. If they are so smart, why don't they know where he is, and even if they need to stop and ask directions (there are no GPS at the time), why are they asking the one person who seeks to do Jesus harm? In fact, it is their questioning of Herod which sets in motion the "slaughter of the innocents."

The story of the Magi is undoubtedly a metaphor, told by the writers of Matthew to indicate that Jesus deserved recognition from birth. Matthew’s authors were probably responding to the claims that Jesus was simply a magician, and having Magi worship him at birth would indicate that he was more than a mere magician.

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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #70 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:28pm
 
Part 11: Jesus the Prince of Peace? Prince of violence is more like it!


SCHOLARS 
“The Dead Sea Scrolls provide a context for understanding the role of Jesus and the political machinations that would have featured behind his birth, marriage, and active role in this Zealot aspiration for victory.” (Baigent, 2006, p. 38)

"[Jesus] was not so much a wandering preacher giving sermons or a wandering philosopher offering maxims as like a radical politician gathering support for a new and highly risky movement." (Wright, 1999, p. 36)

“…it was not the Jews who killed the apostles because they were Christians, but the Romans who executed them because they were…Zealots." (Dimont, 1991, p. 69)

THE REALITY 

Most people think of Jesus as the “Prince of Peace”, the ultimate non-violence advocate, a precursor to Gandi and MLK. Yet there is reason to believe that while Jesus preached peace, he also preached violent action. As astounding as that may be for most people, let’s look at the evidence. First we’ll look at some of Jesus’ sayings that suggest a harsher view of humanity that we usually ascribe to Jesus. Next we’ll look at his disciples, and then we’ll look at his behavior in Jerusalem, and finally we’ll examine the relationship between the Essenes and the Zealots.

Jesus’ Sayings

Jesus has sayings that are overtly aggressive/violent and some that while not being violent, show a side of him that is vindictive and unforgiving. Here are some examples:

Violent Advocacy and Imagery

“And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell. And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30)

"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." (Matthew 10:21)

“Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: and a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. “(Matthew 10:34-38)

“I say unto you, that unto every one that hath shall be given; but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away from him. But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me .” (Luke 19:26-27)

“And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. For I say unto you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in me, And he was reckoned with transgressors: for that which concerneth me hath fulfilment. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.” (Luke 22:36-38)

Vindictive and Unforgiving Sayings

“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And thou, Capernaum, shalt thou be exalted unto heaven? thou shalt go down unto Hades: for if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in thee, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.” (Matthew 11:20-24)

“He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.” (Matthew 12:30-31)

“And on the morrow, when they were come out from Bethany, he hungered. And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it was not the season of figs. And he answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit from thee henceforward for ever.” (Mark 11:12-14)

Apologists will explain away each of these sayings as metaphor, symbolism, or mere zealousness. Moreover, they will point to sayings that uphold Jesus’ image as the Prince of Peace (e.g., Matthew 26:52 - "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."). Certainly the violent and/or vindictive sayings represent a minority of Jesus’ sayings, yet they are not a miniscule minority, and certainly most of Jesus’ sayings are of a loving and caring nature. Nonetheless, there are a substantial number of sayings of Jesus from the canonical gospels which suggest that as zealous as Jesus was in his devotion to God and as much as he emphasized love toward one another, he could be equally zealous in his attitudes against people with whom he disagreed.

The Zealot Disciples

Jesus’ disciples included a high percentage of people who appear to have been Zealots, including Simon the Zealot [1] Peter called Simon bar Jona [2], Judas the Dagger man, and the Sons of Thunder. Moreover, Jesus’ own philosophy and the philosophy of the Zealots were similar in many ways. They both stressed the importance of the law and both were dissatisfied with the sad state of affairs in which the Temple authorities were corrupt and the Romans ruled Israel with an iron fist, exacting taxes that impoverished the people. Of course, Jesus, on the whole, professed peace while the Zealots were committed to the violent overthrow of the Roman authorities. However, there were occasions in which Jesus also advocated armed resistance, as when he urged his disciples to gather up swords (Luke 22:36) or when he said: “Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34).”

Dimont (1991) also believes that Jesus was a Zealot, and he claims that when viewed in this light, Jesus’ advice to his disciples (Matthew 10:5-23) takes on new meaning:

“He gave them strict instructions to contact only Israelites. They were to stay in one place only long enough to deliver the message, then take off. If they felt they were under suspicion, they were to disappear quickly from the scene. They were to exercise great caution in speech and action…(p. 67).”

In other words, Jesus’ advice suggests that the disciples are Zealots who need to be extremely careful in what they do. Had they been merely religious teachers, many of Jesus’ cautions would appear to be highly unusual.

In addition, the violent deaths of many of the disciples (Peter, Simon, Andrew, and James were crucified, Bartholomew was flayed to death, Thomas was killed by arrows, etc.) makes sense from this perspective. Dimont claims “…it was not the Jews who killed the apostles because they were Christians, but the Romans who executed them because they were…Zealots (p. 69).”

Biblical scholar N. T. Wright (1999) says that Jesus “…was not so much a wandering preacher giving sermons or a wandering philosopher offering maxims as like a radical politician gathering support for a new and highly risky movement (p. 36).”

We get another hint that Jesus may have been a zealot from the good shepherd imagery. Going back to the Gospel of Luke, the appearance of shepherds may be a hint of Jesus’ Zealot sentiments. Today we associate shepherds with pastoral peace, but in Jesus’ time the shepherds were considered robbers (Spong, 1992, p. 147), and robbery was often a profession taken up by the Zealots. The good shepherd may be an analogy to the person who takes care of his sheep, but it would have a second meaning for First Century Jews – the good robber chief.

Jesus in Jerusalem

Pike and Kennedy (1972) believe that Jesus was a Zealot and they point out that his first public recognition as the Davidic Messiah comes during the Feast of the Dedication (John 10:22), a ceremony that commemorates the first Jewish revolution under the Maccabees. In addition, both the Zealot movement and the Jesus movement were controlled by dynastic succession: in the case of the Zealots, from Hezekiah to Judas to Menahem and Eleazar, and in the case of Jesus, from Jesus to James to Simeon to Jude’s grandsons.

The scene in the Temple (John 2:15 – “and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables…”) in which Jesus overturns the tables and chases the money lenders out shows a Jesus who is certainly not your classic peacenik. This example of civil disobedience goes beyond the traditional non-violent code and borders on aggression.

It’s always been questionable as to why his disciples deserted him once he was arrested. Had his movement been purely theological, his disciples had no need to fear from the Romans. Yet all the men fled, suggesting that perhaps they were afraid for their lives, implying that the Jesus movement had political overtones rather than merely being theological.

Michael Baigent in The Jesus Papers (2006) also theorizes that Jesus was a Zealot, and he claims that the two “leste” who were crucified with him were also Zealots, as was Barabbas. Baigent adds to his list of Zealots, Paul (Acts 21:38) as well as the Essenes, and he claims that: “The Dead Sea Scrolls…provide original documents from the Zealots (p. 36).” 

The Essenes and the Zealots

There is some justification for linking the Essenes and the Zealots (see Eisenman, 1997). Hippolytus, a disciple of Irenaeus, in his 2nd Century text Origenis Philosophumena sive Omnium Hæresium Refutatio wrote:

"Some of these [Essenes] observe a still more rigid practice in not handling or looking at a coin bearing an image, saying that one should neither carry nor look at nor fashion any image; nor will they enter a city at the gate of which statues are erected, since they consider it unlawful to walk under an image. Others threaten to slay any uncircumcised Gentile who listens to a discourse on God and His laws, unless he undergoes the rite of circumcision; should he refuse to do so, they kill him instantly. From this practice they have received the name of 'Zealots' or 'Sicarii.' Others again call no one Lord except God, even though one should torture or kill them (Jewish Encyclopedia v. 228-230)."

Thus, according to Hippolytus, the Zealots emerged as the military wing of the Essenes, in much the same way that the Therapeuts emerged as the healing wing of the Essenes. And given Jesus’ involvement with the Essenes, it would be surprising if he had not been exposed to the Zealot philosophy and felt comfortable in the presence of Zealots among his disciples. Perhaps the situation is best described in contemporary terms. The Republican Party in the 21st Century has under its broad umbrella individuals and groups that advocate bombing abortion clinics, invading foreign countries, deposing leaders of sovereign countries, editing school books, and building enormous fiscal deficits to fund massive government spending. In these aspects they can be distinguished from the Libertarian and the Democratic parties, as well as from the 20th Century Republican Party. Yet not all Republicans advocate all these positions. In a similar way, Jesus as an Essene may have adopted the Therapeut orientation to healing as well as the Essene eschatology, while rejecting the extreme violence of the Zealots.

Summary

Our major image of Jesus is as the Prince of Peace, however, this view ignores  substantial evidence that Jesus had a harsher side, that could involve violent actions (in the Temple) and advocating violence as well as vindictive and unforgiving attitudes. We tend to ignore this evidence or find explanations to negate it, but the sheer number of examples and their wide spread reference across various gospels and at different times in Jesus’ life suggest that indeed these tendencies were there. The fact that ultimately Jesus chose peace and non-violence shows the strength of his character. The real life Jesus had to struggle with the same problems as everyone else, and the hallmark of the story of his life is the fact that he chose peace over violence, not that he was without any violent impulses.
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[1] Luke (6:15) calls him “the Zealot” but in Mark (3:18) and Matthew (10:4) he is called the “Cananaean”. Fosdick (1949, p. 194) says that “Cananaean” is best translated as “hot” or “fervid” and may refer to religious zeal rather than armed insurrection. Josephus in Antiquities claimed the term Zealots came into common use after 66 A.D. as a synonym for rebellious, yet he also talked about the Zealots as a “fourth philosophy” founded by Judas of Gamala in 6 A.D.

[2] Craveri (1967, p. 91) and Dimont (1999, p. 69) claim that Simon bar Jona ordinarily means “Simon, son of Jonah”, but as used in Israel at the time, the term baryon meant “open country” referring to the place where Zealots fled to escape the Romans. Thus it meant “Simon, the Zealot”.

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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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I Am Dude
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #71 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:30pm
 
I know that that series of posts does not disprove Jesus' existance.  Rather, it proves the falseness of the story of Jesus as told in the bible.  So many lies, so many lies.
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #72 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:33pm
 
Doc,
You are totally right.  We are god.  I know this, you know this.  When I say.. the words of god... I am speaking of the god that Christians believe in.  The big bad dude up there judging us and the one who is repsonsible for our good times and bad times.  The separate entity god.  However, I know very well he is not a separate entity.  God isnt even a he.  God is us, god is everything.  I also very much agree that there are absolutely great moral teachings in the bible.  In fact, the teachings of the bible are about the only thing I do believe to be truth.  When I say lies, I am referring to the crap like Jesus making food appear, bringing people back to life, rising from the dead, things of that nature.  Basically, everything besides the teachings.  The teachings are wonderful.  But you know as well as I do how silly some of these stories are.  Just as silly as the stories of the myths of ancient times.  Because they are essentially the same stories.  Perhaps worded a little differently, which allows Berserk to dissmiss them as rubbish.  But eyewitness testimonies from 2000 years ago?  That may be the least effective, accurate, and convincing type of evidence in the history of evidence.  They make up stories in the bible, and then they make up the eyewitness testimonies after theyre finished the book of lies.  Its as simple as that.  The other types of evidence are often either found to be hoaxes or victims of interpolation.

But I agree.. there are great lessons in the bible.  Hell, they even give cooking tips!
Mark 9:50
Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
*****************
I'll agree that minus the Hollywood "magic" stuff (dead people walking around, ect.) as well as most of the Old Testament (barbarism!) AND the entire book of Revelation, the Bible does contain some good moral advice. What's good in the Bible, however, is not necesarily unique (Buddha and Confucius having stated many of the same precepts.) I understand that Thomas Jefferson commissioned a Bible with all of the insanity cut out, and which ended with Jesus' burial...

B-man
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #73 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 8:51pm
 
Ah Dude, for the first time you make admissions that your prior posts seem to have implicitly overlooked.  Good!   True, you express some authentic thoughts.  But you keep overlooking my key point.   Modern academic scholars do not recognize the truthfulness of the textual basis for many of your parallels with pagan savior figures.  So your case depends on your ability to respond by quoting these ancient texts themselves.  Why won't you directly address my critique point by point as I have addressed yours?  In any case, I have not yet posted the key positive evidence that Jesus ecisted.  That evidence  renders any discussion of the parallels irrelevant.   

But let's change the subject for a moment. Let me share my agenda for setting up this useful confrontation.  No one can rhetorically sledge hammer another into a new faith posture.  Everything ultimately depends on whether you directly experience Christ's reality and power through an experience of intimate union with Him.  But such a personal revelation is most likely to happen when one is vehemently opposed to Christ's reality!  For this and other reasons, the risen Jesus expresses a remarkable preference: "I'd prefer you to be [spiritually] hot or cold--anything but lukewarm towards me (Revelation 3:15-16)."  Why does Christ prefer seekers to be "cold" towards Him rather than "lukewarm?"  Because lukewarm believers embrace their faith for superficial reasons (e. g. church as a social club; Jesus as a useful working construct for life, but no more, etc.)  The cold make no pretensions of commitment towards Him.  But if  they eventually do convert, they make the most dedicated Christians.  St. Paul, the former anti-Christian persecutor, is a good example of this.

But let me give you a modern example of how a debate such as ours has paid great spiritual dividends.  My Dad's acquaintance, Ken, is an oil baron in Alberta, Canada and is a good friend of Alberta's former Premier.  He is an excellent debater and used to love confusing simple-minded Christians with his skeptical arguments.   After one such rhetorical triumph, he was gloating as he drove to an oil meeting in a tall office building in downtown Edmonton.  As he relived key moments of his debate, he confidently challenged Christ: "OK, Jesus, if you're for real, then let some homeless guy confront me at the revolving door of the building and cry, `Alms please!"  No one speaks like that any more.  And panhandlers were virtually unknown in this upscale part of the city.  Ken congratulated hiimself on his  insight that Jesus can't respond to such requests for verification. 

After parking, he walked towards the doorway. Out of nowhere, he was confronted by a young man dressed in a kilt like a Scotsman.  The man shouted, "Alms please!'  Annoyed, ken brushed past hiim through the revolving door.  In a couple of seconds, the significance of what had just happened suddenly dawned on him!  He raced back through the doorway and looked for the panhandler, but "the scotsman" was nowhere to be seen.  In the couple of seconds since the encounter, he had nowhere to escape Ken's gaze.  The area  was far too open. Ken's realization that "the scotsman" had dematerialized quickly led to Ken's spiritual transformation.   I could share a somewhat analogous example from my own life.

In a recent post, you mentioned that you had dreamed about Jesus, but attributed this to our debate.  You may be correct, but this illustrates the point that when we get our mental jiuces flowing about controversial spiritual issues, the unconscious can  be operating behind the scenes to engage these issues intuitively and with the imagination.  Given your paranormal orientation, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

A while ago, I badgered you to read Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil."  In truth, I don't think it matters that much whether one believes in a literal devil or not.  I think you'd be more blown away by atheist Howard Storm's book, "My Descent into Death," easily the most powerful NDE book I've ever read.

Don
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Re: JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY ARE REVEALED AS MYTH
Reply #74 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 10:21pm
 
I randomly sampled Dude's quotes of violent saying in the NT.

One area sampled was Luke:
“I say unto you, that unto every one that hath shall be given; but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away from him. But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me .” (Luke 19:26-27)

I read through this passage.  This is not Jesus talking.  This is a tale of a nobleman, and the nobleman was speaking in Jesus' story in this passage! (Luke 19:12).  Yet Dude tries to pass this off as JC being cruel.  Ridiculous.  Understand what you are reading, people - please!

The same is true for Luke 19:26, 27.


Matthew
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