Hi outofbodydude I have seen Jesus and felt his love.And i love him very much.

Jesus walked upon the sea,
In the land of Galilee,
His disciples watched, in silent awe,
As Jesus walked, back to the shore.

He truly is the son of God,
Whos come , to show us the way,
To Gods beautiful kingdom, up above,
Come hither, we now must pray.

To God in heavens, glorious high,
Sending to us, his beloved son,
Down to this earth, to free us of sin,
His sacred will, which will be done

Jesus said, to be at peace,
My father is there for you,
My children, who are blessed be,
For every word is true

So do not fear, and believe,
Into heaven, you will be received,
With all my heart and loving care,
I will never desert you anywhere.

My sister Deanna wrote this and i and Deanna love and beleive in the only son of God  our dear saviour Jesus.  Horus can go swivel in the daisies for all we care.

Love and God bless     Love Juditha

Myths tend to grow around historical fact; if there are myths added on to history, it does not directly contest the truth of the matter - whether or not JC walked the earth.

Man notoriously gets things wrong in communication amongst his fellow men; I posted the example of a staged incident in a college class with people remembering it diffently as an example.

Another humorous example comes from Monty Python's "The Life of Brian," a great religious satire.  Brian is mistaken for the messiah, and is running away from a mob of followers.  During his mad rush, a sandal falls to the ground.  The mob stops, and looks at the sandal.  "Behold the holy sandal of our lord!"  "What can it mean"  Then another fellow takes his own sandal off in the mob:

"Can't you see?  Our lord wishes that like him we walk without one sandal on."   They all then proceed to take off and throw away one shoe or sandal.  Humorous?  Yes.  Ridiculous?  Yes.  But myth can be created even in this satire.  Brian, the innocent taken for the messiah really did exist.  However, his followers, the "mob" began to build a myth around him and make outrageous statements/ideas that he never said or willingly did.

So I still say that the growth of any myths around JC, or parallels to other similar saviours and the like do not disprove that JC walked the earth as a man.


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Your dead on here Bman.  Doc says its historical facts with a lot of myths added in... then we have Berserk saying its absolutely no myths although quite clearly it is, no matter how much he attempts to hide the fact(clearly a sign of denial, when we have members here on the same side of this debate who acknowledge that myth was a strong influence, even after seeing Bererks attempts at diluting the fact.)  But wasn't the bible written less than a century after "Jesus was alive"?  That doesnt give the story much time to be passed down and for the story to be changed and for myths to be added.  In one generation, how much can a story change?  Unless it was changed on purpose?  Unless there was no ture story to change at all?  Doc, it seems like every major point of Jmans life can be traced back into ancient myths.  So tell me, what parts were real?  What parts really did happen?  Christians claim that the whole thing was the words of god.  I don't think god lies.  I think man lies.  Which is why the entire bible is lies.  Because it was a fabrication of man.

And Juditha and Deanna.. why have you resorted to insulting me?  I have not done any harm to you.  If you do not approve of the nature or subject of this debate, simply do not read it.  You can continue to believe a man was born without his mother having intercourse, that he walked on water, that he made fish appear out of nowhere, that he rose from the dead(hahahaha), that he died to save mankind, and that his similarities to ancient myths and his obvious connections to astrology mean nothing.  Good day!

Let’s look at something of great importance.  When did Jesus actually live (if he did)?  If you are to believe Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod…Herod died in 4 BCE, so Jesus had to be born prior to that date…yet Luke records that he was born during the tenure of Cyrenius as governor of Syria and during the census ordered by Augustus…that would be sometime between 6 and 9 CE.  Now we have two different birth dates for this man-god, coming from supposedly inerrant scriptures.  Not only that, but Jesus was supposed to be baptized by John the Baptist.  John began his ministry in 28-29 CE (the 15th year of Tiberius) and was imprisoned by no later than 30 CE…If Matthew were right, then Jesus would have missed John by 2 to 4 years (assuming that Jesus was about 30 when he started his ministry as Luke reported).  Now if Luke is right, then in 30 CE (at the time John was imprisoned) Jesus would have only been 21-24, missing John by 6 to 9 years.  We also have the problem that John was supposed to have died before Jesus, but if Matthew is right, then Jesus would have died before John even started his ministry and if Luke is right, then Jesus would have died either at the same time as John (Josephus implies that John died around 36 CE) or a year or two after John.  Then there is the problem of Pontius Pilate, if Matthew is right, then Pontius would have just taken his position and would have all of Judea against him (including Herod Agrippa), which would have made for some dicey relations between the two groups and if Luke were correct, Jesus would have died after Pontius was relieved and sent back to Rome.  If these books were early, they would have realized this, only books written generations after the occurrences and generations after the death of the last witnesses would make such a mistake.

There is much to the Gospel story that doesn't add up even without cross-referencing it to what we know of history.

Jesus supposedly performed many obviously supernatural feats, such as healing the sick, feeding thousands with magically created food and even bringing back the dead.  These miracles were performed in front of witnesses, sometimes crowds, all of whom were (rightly) amazed.  If these stories are true, we should expect his reputation to spread like wildfire. 

The Gospels claim Jesus wasn't very famous.  Pilate, by all four accounts, had absolutely no idea who this guy was.  The Pharasie guards also apparently didn't know him, as they needed Judas to point out who to arrest.  Shouldn't such a miracle worker be identified on sight?

What about the disciples themselves?  With each miracle Jesus performed, they were amazed only to forget by the beginning of the next miracle so they might be amazed anew.  Classic case of this was Matthew chapter 14 where Jesus feeds 5000 familes with five loaves and two fish.  Then in chapter 15, Jesus feeds 4000 families with seven loaves and some fish.  Before the chapter 15 feeding, the disciples asked "Where are we to get the food?"  They'd witnessed Jesus feed more with less only a chapter previously.  Why did they ask such a stupid question?

The disciple Thomas is particularly two-dimensional.  He doubts the ressurection of Jesus after all that he'd witnessed, including the ressurection of Lazerus and the dead saints coming to life at the death of Jesus.  After traveling with a clearly divine being who performs one miracle after another, what idiot would have any doubts that this is not a normal human being? 

In Jesus' home town, people were reluctant to accept claims about his divinity.  Didn't they remember the star, the wise men, the angels singing at his birth and guiding shepherds to the scene in the manger? 

History's Troubling Silence About Jesus 

...the surviving writings of some 35 to 40 independent observers of the first one hundred years following the alleged crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus give virtually no confirmation of Jesus' existance. These authors were respected, well-traveled, articulate, thinkers and observers, the philosophers, poets, moralists, historians of that era.

Some of the most prominent figures who make no mention of Jesus are:

Seneca, 4BCE - 65CE Rome’s most prominent writer on ethics, philosophy, morals, natural scientist who tracked eclipses & quakes; the alleged correspondence between Paul and Seneca was later exposed as fraudulent.
Pliny the Elder, 23-79 CE Natural History 37 books on natural events such as earthquakes, eclipse and healing.
Quintilian 39-96CE authored Instituio Oratio 12 books on morals and virtue.
Epictetus 55-135CE, former slave who became a recognized moralist, philosopher and wrote about the "brotherhood of man" and the importance of helping the poor and oppressed.
Martial 38-103CE Poet, wrote epic poems about human foibles and the diverse characters of Roman Empire
Juvenal, 55 - 127 CE Rome’s most powerful satirical poet, wrote about injustice and tragedy in Roman gov’t
Plutarch, 46 - 119 CE Greek, traveled Rome to Alexandria, wrote Moralia on morals and ethics.

Three Romans whose writings contain minimal reference to a Christ, Chrestos or Christians are:

Pliny the Younger, 61-113CE Governor of Bithynia In a letter in 112CE asking Emperor Trajan about prosecuting Christians who "met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately amongst themselves in honor of Christ as to a god." Some eighty years after Calvary, somebody was worshiping a Christ (Hebrew equivalent for Messiah)! But, nothing is said as to whether this Christ was Jesus, a teacher and miracle working man who was crucified and resurrected in Judea or a mythic Christ of the pagan mystery religions. Even Jesus allegedly said there would be many false Christs, so Pliny’s statement lends little if any credence for Jesus of Nazareth historicity.
Suetonius, 69 - 122 CE Lives of the Emperors , a history of 11 emperors; writing in 120 about Emperor Claudius 41-54CE who "expelled from Rome the Jews who under the influence of Chrestus, did not cease to cause unrest." Who is Chrestus? No mention of Jesus. Is this Chrestus a Jewish agitator, one of many false Messiah’s or a mythic Christ? This statement proves nothing for a historical Jesus of Nazareth.
Tacitus, 56 -120 CE noted Roman historian, in his Annuals 14-68 CE Book 15, chapter 44 written about 115CE gives the first non-Christian reference to Christ as a man executed in Judea by Pontius Pilate. Tacitus states "Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate." Scholars point out several reasons to suspect this statement was not from Tacitus or any Roman records, but instead a later insertion in Tacitus’ Annuals. #1. Pilate is referred to as "procurator" which is appropriate in Tacitus’ day, but in Pilate’s day the correct title was "prefect". #2. If Tacitus’s comment was written in the early 2nd Century, why didn’t later church fathers who all sought to find proofs for Jesus historicity such as Tertullian, Clement, Origen, even Eusebius (Father of Church History) quote Tacitus? #3 Tacitus is not quoted by any Christian writer prior to the 15th Century. This quotations inaccuracy and lack of use strongly suggest it is a later insertion.
The clear and indisputable fact is 80 to 100 years is a suspiciously long time after alleged events of such magnitude for no credible written recognition . Further, the brevity and scarceness of substantive fact in these three writings relative to the claim that this was about a miracle working Jewish Messiah named Jesus who was God in human flesh, crucified, and resurrected clearly calls into question the credibility of these writings.

Three 1st Century Jewish authors of great significance are:

Philo-Judaeus, 15 BCE - 50 CE of Alexandria, a Greek speaking Jewish theologian-philosopher, personally knew Jerusalem because of family living there. He wrote extensively on Jewish history and religion from a Greek perspective and taught the following concepts all prominent in John’s Gospel and Paul’s epistles: God and His Word are one; the Word is the first-begotten Son of God; God created the world thru His Word; God holds all things together thru His Word; the Word is the fountain of eternal life; the Word dwells in and among us; all judgment is committed to God’s Word; and the Word never changes. Philo also taught on God as Spirit, the Trinity, the virgin birth, Jews who sin will go to hell, Gentiles who come to God will be saved and go to heaven, and God is love and forgives. Yet, Philo, a Jew in nearby Alexandria, who would have been a contemporary of Jesus[/u] never once mentions anybody named Jesus[/u] nor any miracle worker being crucified and resurrected in Jerusalem, let alone an eclipse, an earthquake, or graves opening and resurrected Jewish saints walking the streets of Jerusalem. Why? Philo’s total silence about a Jesus is deafening!
Josephus, 37-103CE a Jerusalem born Pharisee, living in Rome wrote History of the Jews, 79CE and Antiquities of the Jews,93CE. Christian apologists (defenders of the faith) consider Josephus’ Jesus testimony the one sure evidence of the historicity of Jesus. This Jesus Testimony is found in Josephus’, Antiquities of the Jews. Contrary to those Christian apologists, the Jesus testimony is considered by many scholars including the Encyclopedia Britannica’s scholars as "an insertion by later Christian copyists". This Jesus testimony states "Jesus is the Christ, a doer of wonderful works, was crucified, and appeared the third day as the divine prophets foretold".
Why is this Jesus testimony considered a later insertion?
1. Josephus was a Pharisee. Only a Christian would call Jesus the Christ. Josephus would have had to renounce his pharisaical beliefs to say Jesus was the Christ. Josephus died a pharisee.
2. Josephus writing style is to write chapter upon chapter about the most insignificant people and events. The Jesus testimony consists of four sentences. Why would Josephus’ Christ (the Jewish Messiah) deserve only four sentences?
3. The paragraphs before and after the Jesus testimony describe Romans killing Jews. The paragraph following the Jesus testimony begins "About the same time another sad calamity put the Jews in disorder". Would the "sad calamity" refer to the appearing of the "doer of wonderful works" or Romans killing Jews? The Jesus Testimony clearly does not follow the preceding paragraph and characteristic of later insertions is out of context.
4. Finally, and most convincing had Josephus actually written the Jesus testimony, church fathers in the following 200 years would surely refer to it in fending off critics of Jesus’ being just another myth. But, not once does Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, or Origen ever refer to Josephus’ Jesus testimony. We know Origen read Josephus because Origen’s writings criticize Josephus for attributing the destruction of Jerusalem to the killing of James. The church fathers made no reference to Josephus’ alleged Jesus testimony because it was not in Josephus’ writing.
Not only does the Jesus Testimony appear fraudulent, but Josephus’ historical accounts both contradict and omit other New Testament bible stories:
1. According to the bible John the Baptist was killed about 30 CE at the beginning of Jesus ministry. In Josephus, John the Baptist is killed by Herod when Herod is at war with King Aertus of Arabia in 34 - 37 CE.
2. Josephus makes no reference to the celebration of Pentecost in Jerusalem when allegedly devote Jews of every nation gathered and all received the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in new tongues; a Jewish fisherman Peter is head apostle of the new church; a fellow pharisee named Saul of Tarsus becomes the apostle Paul, or of the church’s explosive growth throughout Palestine, Alexandria, Greece, or Josephus’ city of residence Rome. Peter and Paul’s alleged martyrdoms in Rome about 60 CE is unknown to Josephus. It bears noting that Christian apologists so determined to rely on the veracity of Josephus’ Jesus testimony excuse his later oversights.
Is it probable, as the Encyclopedia Britannica asserts that Christian copyists distorted truth by inserting the Jesus testimony? Eusebius (265-339 CE), acknowledged as "Father of Church History" and known to be the emperor Constantine’s overseer of doctrine writes in his The Preparation of the Gospel published by Baker House (a Christian company)on page 619 "it will be necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such treatment". Eusebius, one of the most influential Christians in church history, condoned fraud as a tool to promote Christianity! The probability of Constantine’s Christianity being a product of fraud is directly related to the desperate need of evidence to support the historicity of Jesus. Without Josephus’ alleged Jesus testimony there is no credible first century non-Christian evidence of a historical Jesus.
Justus of Tiberius is the third 1st Century Jewish writer. The writings of Justus of Tiberius have been lost, but Photius, the patriarch of Constantinople 878-886 CE wrote Bibleotheca in which he reviewed the writings of Justus of Tiberius. Photius records "of the advent of Christ, of the things that befell him one way or another, or of the miracles that he performed, (Justus) makes absolutely no mention". Justus’ home was Tiberius in Galilee (Jn 6:23). Justus’ writing preceded Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews 93CE, so it is probable he lived and wrote during or immediately after the alleged era of Jesus, yet remarkably "makes absolutely no mention of him".

Rabbinic literature would logically be the one final inquiry for the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. The Bible’s New Testament alleges Jesus is the fulfillment of Jewish prophesy for the Messiah, having been crucified on Passover Day. On that day allegedly Jerusalem had an earthquake, its temple veil was split in two, there was an eclipse of the sun, Jesus is resurrected, even resurrected Jewish saints walked the streets of Jerusalem, a few days later on the Day of Pentecost Jews gathered from every nation to witness the Holy Ghost descending with tongues of fire, and the Christian church growth exploded with both Jewish and Gentile converts, signs and miracles being unleashed in abundance. In 70 CE Jerusalem is besieged by the Roman army and Israel as a nation is destroyed and dispersed. Regardless of Rabbinic rejection of Jesus as Messiah, the historical impact of events surrounding Jesus would logically be noted in Israel’s Talmudic commentaries known as the Midrash. Jewish oral traditions and history recorded in the Midrash were updated and given final form by Rabbi Jehudah ha-Qadosh around 220 CE. Quoting Frank Zindler’s The Jesus The Jews Never Knew " Remarkably, not a single early rabbinic source so much as hints at the events of a 1st Century false Messiah, of the events alleged surrounding Jesus crucifixion and resurrection, or for that matter of anyone identifiable with the Jesus of Christianity."


The Holy Land’s historic landmarks do not confirm the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth.

Local monks, priests, and tour guides pointing Christian pilgrims (donations accepted) to the locations of events described in the Bible can hardly be considered as objective. Again quoting portions of Zindler, "Unbiased confirmation of these locations is severely lacking. Nazareth is not mentioned once in the Hebrew Old Testament. The Talmud mentions 63 Galilean towns, yet never mentions Nazareth. Josephus mentions 45 Galilean towns or villages, yet never once mentions Nazareth. Josephus does mention a Japha which is a suburb of present-day Nazareth. Lk 4:28-30 describes Nazareth having a synagogue and a "brow of a hill whereon their city was built" presumably steep enough to kill Jesus had they succeeded in throwing him over it. But, present-day Nazareth occupies a valley floor and the lower half of a hillside. There is no hill. Further, present-day Nazareth has no 1st Century synagogue ruins. Origen 182-254 CE who lived in Caesarea 30 miles from present-day Nazareth does not mention Nazareth. The first solid reference to Nazareth comes from Eusebius in the 4th Century. The best guesti-mates are that Nazareth did not come into existence until the 2nd Century. This historic evidence strongly suggests why no 1st Century non-Christian Roman, Greek, Jewish historian, or Rabbinic literature mentions a Jesus of Nazareth, i.e. there was no 1st Century Nazareth.

Time and space do not allow for discussion of other significant New Testament towns. The historical and archaeological evidence for 1st Century Capernaum (mentioned 16 times in the New Testament), Bethany, Bethpage, Bethabara, and Calvary, like Nazareth is equally unconvincing or even counter-indicative.

The mark of an objective, critical thinking mind is to seek non-biased confirmation of alleged facts. When the only available evidence of an event or product is, not only suspiciously questionable, but is what the event or product’s promoters want you to believe then "Buyer Beware". The facts are that non-Christian Jewish, Greek, and Roman writers of the decades following the alleged events of Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection are virtually silent about any person named Jesus of Nazareth. Though the fair-minded critical thinker is always willing to consider further evidence, today 2,000 years later, Christianity has no more 1st Century objective, unbiased evidence for its historicity then The Wizard of Oz, Paul Bunyan, Zeus, or any of the many mythical savior-gods of that era.

Hi dude how could you laugh at jesus he was the son of god ,he was our saviour , look you dont believe in jesus thats your right as a human being but i do and i always will and i need and want jesus in my life forever.

I have had some very bad times in my life and if it wasnt for my faith in jesus i dont know how  i would have coped .

i am a practising medium i have experienced different things to do with the afterlife so i know that their is definitley an afterlife and jesus  is a big part of it .

Jesus said whosoever believeth in me shall have everlasting life .

And i do believe satan exists as well i,ve seen evidence of this my sister and i both have ,you cant call us liars because you wasnt there ,you didnt see what we see it was definitley demonic  and i hope to never see it again in my lifetime .

We have all mostly experienced different things in our lives we are all individual PEOPLE WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN VIEWS ON THINGS ,WE ALL HAVE FREE WILL  DEANNA

Dear Don,

I can very well list the sources for the material I am presenting.  But what good will that do?  These articles that I am posting are not my original thoughts and I am not claiming them to be.  They simply are in tune with my beliefs and support my claims.  They are not coming from my mouth(or fingers), but who cares?  I did not claim to have copyright on them.  My authentic thoughts are found inbetween the long articles I post, they are there so your claim that I display no authentic thoughts is incorrect.  I am not writing a thesus, so why do you put so much importance on identifying sources and plaigarism?  How does where a piece of information comes from effect your ability to assess its merits?  I did not address your challenge to quote the original texts because I cannot. lol.  But so?  Your claim that every New Age source is incompetent and bogus is grossly untrue and biased, you say this simply because they do not agree with your beliefs, as you tend to do with everyone who is not in tune with your conservative thinking.  But I have asked you to answer many questions as well, and you have not stepped up either.  So the road goes two ways.  I am admitting that I cannot quote the ancient texts.  But why can you not address my questions?  

                                                   Love, Dude

P.S.  I was told that your girl Achariya stepped up and was willing to challenge you in a debate, and yet you backed out after your ongoing critique of her work.  What is this about?  Afraid she'd put you in your place?

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This quote proves just how bogus Jesus and Christianity are.  That I would not have everlasting life if I do not believe in Jesus is the most obsurd statement I have ever heard.  So your saying the 90% of humans who did not believe in Jesus have faced annahilation?  Wow.  I better get on that Christianity bandwagon.  And just think, if I held these beliefs in the early days of A.D., I would have been killed!  Alright!