[recoverer:] "The point of bringing up the George Ritchie information was to establish that stuck spirits often have a difficult time seeing light beings. Hence, the need for spirits who have an energetic connection to a physical body."
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You must learn to read.   I repeat: Ritchie's NDE establishes neither that these light beings are human rather than angelic nor that the purpose of their presence is to prepare souls for retrieval.   You also overlook the possibility that these light beings can make themselves visible by projecting an image of themselves to their target (so F. W. Myers) or adjusting their vibration to make themselves visible to the inhabitants.  But assume for the sake of argument that your speculation is correct and that incarnate astral explorers can more easily contact the earthbound.  In  that case, it bocomes all the more urgent that incarnate humans find more convincing reasons to join the quest for retrievals than the gullible word of New Age navel gazers.  If spirit guides provided  the names, earthly addresses, and dates of death both of themselves and their retrieval targets, this level of verification would change world consciousness and recruit millions to do retrievals.   So why have such verification protoculs never been established?   The most plausible answer is that New Age retrievals are self-delusions fueled  by wishful thinking.   Seedenbrog  has established that detailed verifications are readily obtained through astral contacts with the dead.  

"The fact of how you insist on believing that verification in the manner you mention is more important than experience, shows that you have no experience with retrievals."
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Your comment just begs the question.  My retrieval of Janet is at least as impressive as any of your posted alleged retrievals.   I doubt you have experienced the vividness of my lucid dream conversations with illusory dream characters about their bogus reality.  Lucid dreams are fueled by wishful thinking and vary dramatically in the degree to which they engage the 5 senses.
Only multi-faceted verifications have the potential to identify the elusive line between astral exploration and lucid dreams (and their waking equivalent.)

My lucid dream contact with Ralph at an outdoor MIT cage near Annie's is as impresive as any of your alleged verifdations.  Lucy confirms that there is an outdoor cafe there and a nearby cafe with a similar sounding name.  I d id not know this.  And it was impressive that I was able to stab Ralph in the chest with my finger to verify a sensory component to his presence.  Only later did I recall that Ralph had at one time lived a few blocks from MIT.   But even that level of verification is too flawed to be decisive.  It would be ireesponsible for me to claim I encountered Ralph's spirit.  

[recoverer:] "My feeling is that if one of us learned something from Jesus Christ himself, you wouldn't believe it if didn't fit within the confines of your limited intellectual framework."
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You overlook the sad reality of both spirit impersonators (e. g. ACIM) and New Age neglect of the criteria needed to distinguish genuine contact from hallucinations and dreams shaped  by wishful thinking.  Claims to have contacted Jesus must be subjected to comparisons with Jesus' known pesonality, claims, and spiritual teaching. 

Don

I can say Don, is that my experiences with Jesus have included the experience of divine love. An imposter couldn't fake divine love.
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Most people can't distinguish divine love from ecstasy.  In any case, your comment is naive and ignores the fact that misinterpreted affective arousal is a standard feature of spirit impersonation.  As a young man, I spoke in tongues for years and experienced its intense loving ecstasy.  This experience has been effectively used to cure drug addictions in Christian clinics.  Yet when I turned 16, I had an experience of speaking in tongues 100 times more potent and love-drenched than my earlier experiences.  I instantly realized that this experience was the real thing and that most of my prior experiences, as blissful as they were, were the sincere product of intense desire and self-delusion.  

"Regarding there being enough humans to help with retrievels, 1) many spirits don't need help from somebody in the physical when it comes to crossing over; and 2)  there is more to how retrievels are done than you know. Whatever the case, I don't see how your cynicism here will help with the numbers game."
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Your unthinking New Age evasions overlook two obvious facts: (1) There are many more trapped discarnate souls than there are incarnate retrievals to assist them in their release.  (2) Again I say, you must learn to read.   I've just pointed out that spirit guides could easily offer guidance in the techniques and strategies of retrievals prior to their actual peformance.  

"Isn't it is possible to have contact with spirits to an extent, where it is very clear that they represent God's light?"
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Again, you must learn to read.  Like door-to-door Jehovah's Witnesses, you think of your canned answers before you've determined what the other guy has said.  I've already conceded Roger's point that Presbyterian minister Hewell Vincent's retrievals during WW2 seem quite convincing, as do Swedenborg's.  The point that you keep ducking is this.  ES's astral explorations establish the possibliity of routine incontrovertible verifications.  Such verifications would recruit the incarnate volunteers needed to retrieve those who are still earthbound, often after centuries of being trapped.  The most reasonable explanation of the failure of wannabe astral adepts to secure such verifications is that they are deluded and lack Swedenborg's ability to contact genuine guides or earthbound spirits.  

"I doubt that you'll listen to what I have to say. I can't think of one occasion when you've opened yourself to another poster's oppossing opinion. I've opened myself to what you've had to share a number of times. Remember, the meek shall inherit the earth."
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You understandably resent the exposure of your arguments to their decisive flaws, and so, in typcial New Age fashion, you resort to snide ad hominems.  In fact, I am far more open than you can imagine.   I would love to delude myself into imagining that I retrieved Janet after her suicide.  I loved her very much.  Also, the Bible and the early church teach the possibility of retrievals.  So I am eager to confirm biblical teaching. But as I've said, Janet's wellbeing is more important than my need for comforting closure.    

As I've learned more about Dark Knight's living Hell and ghastly battle with negs, I'm reminded of the anemic New Age screed you threw at this brilliant scientist instead of just asking more questions to gain a handle on the enormity of her plight.  She has left virtually no stone unturned in her quest for real help and fortunately quickly saw through the sheltered and turf-conscious ghetto mentality of her respondents here.  

Don

Recoverer,

for the umteenth time, I repeat: reread my last wto posts and weep over your bigoted mischaracterization of what I've actually said.  Then, for the first time, actually address my refutations.

Don

Okay Don. I'll give it a go.

[quote author=Berserk link=1168058488/60#62 date=1174425244]I can say Don, is that my experiences with Jesus have included the experience of divine love. An imposter couldn't fake divine love.
_______________________________________________

Most people can't distinguish divine love from ecstasy.  In any case, your comment is naive and ignores the fact that misinterpreted affective arousal is a standard feature of spirit impersonation.  As a young man, I spoke in tongues for years and experienced its intense loving ecstasy.  This experience has been effectively used to cure drug addictions in Christian clinics.  Yet when I turned 16, I had an experience of speaking in tongues 100 times more potent and love-drenched than my earlier experiences.  I instantly realized that this experience was the real thing and that most of my prior experiences, as blissful as they were, were the sincere product of intense desire and self-delusion.

[I know the difference between ecstasy and love. When I've had experiences of divine love they had little to do with me and had everything to do with the divine presence I was in touch with. I felt love, reverence, grattitude, and humility; felt like getting down on my knees; and thought that the presence I was in touch with was the most beautiful thing I've ever experienced even though I couldn't see nor here it.  I did see the image of Jesus Christ one time during such an experience.

I don't know what speaking in toungues is about. Didn't have anything to do with what I experienced. My understanding is that Paul spoke in tongues so he could preach the Gospel to different tribes. I'll leave this one to you.]

"Regarding there being enough humans to help with retrievels, 1) many spirits don't need help from somebody in the physical when it comes to crossing over; and 2)  there is more to how retrievels are done than you know. Whatever the case, I don't see how your cynicism here will help with the numbers game."
_______________________________________________________________

Your unthinking New Age evasions overlook two obvious facts: (1) There are many more trapped discarnate souls than there are incarnate retrievals to assist them in their release.  (2) Again I say, you must learn to read.   I've just pointed out that spirit guides could easily offer guidance in the techniques and strategies of retrievals prior to their actual peformance.

[I don't know the answer to the numbers factor. I don't see how this factor will be helped by trying to talk people out of taking part in retrievels. I'm not some lame brain person who accepted that I was helping with retrievels without becoming certain. I've fooled myself in the past enough times to know better.]
 

"Isn't it is possible to have contact with spirits to an extent, where it is very clear that they represent God's light?"
__________________________________

Again, you must learn to read.  Like door-to-door Jehovah's Witnesses, you think of your canned answers before you've determined what the other guy has said.  I've already conceded Roger's point that Presbyterian minister Hewell Vincent's retrievals during WW2 seem quite convincing, as do Swedenborg's.  The point that you keep ducking is this.  ES's astral explorations establish the possibliity of routine incontrovertible verifications.  Such verifications would recruit the incarnate volunteers needed to retrieve those who are still earthbound, often after centuries of being trapped.  The most reasonable explanation of the failure of wannabe astral adepts to secure such verifications is that they are deluded and lack Swedenborg's ability to contact genuine guides or earthbound spirits.

[How do you know they haven't obtained verifications? Plus things aren't always set up so that verifications are possible. For example, how are you going to verify the retrievel of a kid in India? You're really thinking in a small box on this one. What if you worked with spirit beings on retrievels who have proven to be completely trustworth? Do you really believe they would involve you with a wild goose chase? Why assume that people haven't made contact with beings that represent the light?

How do your attempts to unrecruit people help with the recruiting factor?]  

"I doubt that you'll listen to what I have to say. I can't think of one occasion when you've opened yourself to another poster's oppossing opinion. I've opened myself to what you've had to share a number of times. Remember, the meek shall inherit the earth."
________________________

You understandably resent the exposure of your arguments to their decisive flaws, and so, in typcial New Age fashion, you resort to snide ad hominems.  In fact, I am far more open than you can imagine.   I would love to delude myself into imagining that I retrieved Janet after her suicide.  I loved her very much.  Also, the Bible and the early church teach the possibility of retrievals.  So I am eager to confirm biblical teaching. But as I've said, Janet's wellbeing is more important than my need for comforting closure.

[Your approach on this forum didn't suddenly pop into my mind after your so called exposure of my arguments. My criticism of your approach existed before hand. You don't know the retrievel experiences of other people well enough to compare them to what happened with Janet.]

As I've learned more about Dark Knight's living Hell and ghastly battle with negs, I'm reminded of the anemic New Age screed you threw at this brilliant scientist instead of just asking more questions to gain a handle on the enormity of her plight.  She has left virtually no stone unturned in her quest for real help and fortunately quickly saw through the sheltered and turf-conscious ghetto mentality of her respondents here.  

[There's a lot of wisdom in what I wrote on the Dark Knight post. Try considering what I wrote. I made the first statement I made on that thread, because it is significant that a demonically oppressed person can write long posts.  The fact of how she was able to write one showed that she hadn't lost complete control of her willpower.  It was her choice to become defensive so quickly. Have the people at the other forum helped her? Did they tell her that by connecting to divine will she'll have all the power she needs to overcome what ails her, or did they try to discourage her by coming up with their stock and trade "Martin Malaci says this, and blah, blah says this?

Regarding your being open minded, what if you met up with Jesus and he told you that there is some truth to the disc/higher self/over soul viewpoint? Would you doubt him because the gospels which speak to the masses, don't speak of such things?

Have you ever considered this? Perhaps part of the reasons people like Bruce Moen don't speak of Jesus Christ much, is because it is understood that there are a lot of people who have been turned off to Christ because of fundamentalism? I was one of those people. If Bruce would've written about him I might've wondered about him. Fortunately I became humble enough to question my confusion, and with the assistance of my spirit guidance found that Jesus Christ is a significant part of the human race's spiritual welfare. It might even extend beyond this. The gospel according to John touches me the most. The guidance that helped me open up to Jesus; sent me messages such as "accept Christ," "Trust Christ" and "Jesus saves;" is the same guidance that put in more than one good word for Bruce Moen before I opened myself up to the presence of Christ.]

Don:

HOW DO YOU KNOW PEOPLE DON'T GET VERIFICATIONS?? Perhaps there are some people who don't actually do retrievels despite what they believe. But don't lump them all into one bucket because they haven't read Swedenborg. Don't tell the people who actually do help with retrievels that they are full of it.

If you don't think people like Moen are doing enough, and you really care, then do some retrievels you can be certain about, write a book, go on tour, open a website, and gather the verification statistics you're looking for.

I'm certain that many people will get along quite fine without Mr. Swedenborg. If a person is able, then they are able.

Let us step back from this debate and understand a few simple facts.  Firstly, this is NOT a ghetto; this is a forum where seekers from disparate backgrounds get together to exchange ideas, experiences and find support.  As such, no one who posts a retrieval or mystical experience is looking for criticism or to be put through a scientific grinder.  And know you this, Sir Don - no one here sets himself/herself up as "the new age authority," and no one bows or worships to a ghetto mindset.

Bruce has addressed in his writings a great reason why the afterlife is hard for most people to contact, and why communications are not frequent.  It has been called M band noise.  Essentially, we are told that to be incarnate on the earth plane, we voluntarily constrict our perceptive awareness.  Otherwise, we would not be able to function with all the "noise" constantly being encountered both on the physifcal and spiritual planes.  Bruce likened it to turning on several dozen radios on different stations at the same time, and then trying to discern the speech or music out from just one of them.  In order to function, we narrow our perceptions and filter out the noise being broadcast - or so the theory goes.  Thus, when trying to make contacts or get information during meditation we must break through this voluntary narrowing of perception.

Perhaps there are some like Swedenborg, or mediums (George Anderson has had some amazing verifications), who have a more direct access past this M-band noise than most of us.  Big deal.  We all don't have to achieve this perceptive state to have valid experiences.  The purpose of this website is to exchange information about the afterlife.

How dare anyone assume that if one does not have concrete verification about a  poster's experience that it is bogus!  The means of communication, the symbols we see in meditation, are not just yes/no questions, or precise numbers such as birthdates, etc. 

I think it would be interesting for Bruce/Allen to set up a "verifications" forum, where people could exchange experiences which have later been verified in the physical plane or after a review of personal items.  Perhaps someone (Don), should approach them about this.  

In an upcoming thread, I plan to tie the evidence that conscious thought alters physical and spiritual reality together with "the imagination method" described by Bruce in this website to make contact with the deceased, and show how, despite Don's yammering on about concrete verification, there is a solid grounding to show that pure intent does have an effect, be it for contact or a retrieval. 
Prior to starting this new thread, I leave Don with one question:  what does it mean in the gospels in Matthew 17:20 when it is said:

"And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

Matthew

Berserk wrote on Mar 20^th, 2007 at 11:53pm:


Don, if you truly wish to create that which you long for then you must get out of your own way.  On one hand you believe in the existence of retrievals and on the other hand you believe they are bogus. 

You are holding cross-purposes and in this you will never be able to create what you really want because your cross-purposes appear to cancel each other out. 

Mathew, I will look forward to you upcoming thread.

May the peace that surpasses all understanding be with us all.

Love, Kathy

Don your repeated use of the word "ghetto" for this forum reveals your superiority complex over us. you think we are all lost, and that you would rescue us from delusion. at the same time, if you truly had a savior complex, which it seems most ministers do, then you would instead be offering us some hope along with your denouncing of our experiences as real.

you merely challenge yourself not us. the same you believe in our ghetto-ness, yet you return here. you are drawn here despite our inferiority to your supposed knowledge backed up my your useless degrees.
I accept you here as one of us, to cause us to think it through, find our own flaws, ask guides for verification, etc. but I would ask you to lighten up on the ghetto talk as it's so demeaning to many newbies. I've become hardened by your talk so it doesn't bother me personally anymore, I have you to thank for toughening me up, as well a few others.

We are all EXPLORERS here we are equal to you in the sight of our creator and what I want from you is to offer us a means to explore better and not to just end your posts with such absolutism as you do.
lead us, guide us, don't kill us with kindness.

as to asking for verification within retrievals or obes or other types of exploration, that is something we can concentrate on in the future, then try to pass the verifications on to the public, but the verifications are left up to personal interpretation of each individual, so good luck with that.
I did ask for verification with guides once. it was an obe. there were 3 men guides and they told me I was in South Dakota and they tried to show me with a mental map where Cami's college dorm was; since I have never been to SD I was not familiar in my brain which freeway, streets they were talking about, only that the geographical location I was retrieving Cami at was not the same as the college location they were describing. and I couldn't or didn't think to ask more questions about her last name as I had trouble out there even spelling her first name; I had not known Cami was a real name, it was all unfamiliar. so I would suggest in explorations, ALL of it is new..unfamiliar, yet you know for certain you are leaning something new.
the strangeness of being outside the body is a thing must me cultivated and you must understand we are in a kindergarden age concerning this business

so stop picking on us, it's dreadfully unkind and rather hopeless all in all the feeling you give me...