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at the time we die (Read 8141 times)
dave_a_mbs
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #15 - Dec 24th, 2006 at 5:50pm
 
I'm still looking at things as a methodologist. As a socio-cultural problem, it seems that we go forward into what we think we'll get, modified by personal preferences. The same is true of daydreams, so as a methodological problem, we have nothing finite. All statements, from avatars, prophets, or the Gods Themselves (since they are always arguing about the nature of values and truths in their homes on Olympus, Dear Euthyphro), lack any background references against which to judge them. In the end we're stuck with only our own willingness to see it this way or that way.

I personally was struck by the similarities of NDEs, especially when they were unexpected. I really like to see these independent studies publ;ished on someone's site, or put out here in one of the "Miscellaneous" forums. This is great stuff. The statistics from Duke have verified that there is a fraction of variance unexplainable except as ESP. My experiences have been overwhelmingly convincing, both in a positive sense, and occasionally in a highly negative one as well. Because I often practice in Bardo Thodol and related Vajrayana disciplines, I can verify that my experiences are appoximately those traditionally mentioned in Bardo Thjodol and related Buddhist scripture. But I can neither prove their validity, nor suggest that others will have similar experiences. Maybe I simply have vivid dreams.

In fact, I'm still wondering whether we can prove the existence of extended matter over its ideational imagery, since the two are totally covariant, and thus indiscriminable at a superficial level..Thus, I simply choose what to believe because it works for me. If this is true for everyone, then we're back to cultural norms again.

After a lifetime of seeing only black crows, and having the total certainty of their blackness, it opnly takes one white crow to disprove my theory of crows. The same with the spirit world phenomena. This is true even though we can collectively discuss similar experiences in the spiritual realms as we rescue souls, interview the dead, recover prior histories and compare them with facts (eg: George and the Titanic and his possible shipmates) and so on. At some point we move beyond the ability to test and experiment into the world of hearsay and hope.And that means that we might be sampling something far different than it appears. This is also true for the prophets, avatars and so on. Perhaps, in spite of their excellent advice, they too were deluded and their visions of the Infinite no more than what was expected in their culture. Then our dogmatism is a "....Vanity of vanities, saith the Prophet."

I don't mean to dismiss these things, nor argue that in truth they are invalid, but instead, we've gotten into a level in which we can't do much more than gather data and hope that it means something. I'll easily accept anything said after an NDE or OOBE as being totally valid to the actor. That includes Jesus, Swedenborg, Moses or Krishna, just as a start. What is difficult is to say that "this is true", and to establish a dogmatic posture. It isn't epistemically possible. And that fact too was written by an ancient prophet who told us, "Thou shalt not test they God."

So in the season of Solstive festivals of al our sundry faiths, My best wishes for the Season, and Godspeed.

PUL
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #16 - Dec 25th, 2006 at 4:19pm
 
First, let me say that the contributions to this thread are very profound and thoughtful--as good as any exhanges I've encountered on any website.   Matthew, don't worry about being unable to pinpoint a case history from Atwater documenting an NDE appearance of Muhammad to a young child.   I can seek out her book.  But given the possibility of mere hallucination, it is the larger patterns of religious figures in NDEs that matter and large replicated  studies are needed which ask better questions.  In Ahmed's case, his hatred of his Christian visitors makes it less likely that he would have a healing encounter with Jesus rather than Muhammad.  But this case is obviously far from typical.

So what type is issues need further exploration?  For example, in the Osis/ Haraldsson study, it was found that the Being of Light generally did not identity itself; rather, the perciepients imposed a familiar identity from their upbringing.   Yet I've encountered many cases in which Christ identifies Himself to atheists and other Westerners.   Is there a pattern that determines when the Being of Light does and does not identify itself?   What variables determine this self-identification?  

I would expect the Christian God or Christ to allow Himself to be identified by labels familiar to devotees of other religions.  Mellen-Benedict's "Mandala" epxerience is interesting in this respect.  It reminds me of a famous ancient Greek oracle at Claros.  When the prophetess was asked about her divine source of information, she replied that the divinity she mediates operates under many different names, including Jehovah and gods of  the Greek pantheon.  When the earliest Christians affirmed Christ as the Word (Logos), this simply means the rational self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability.  This perception opens the door to symbolic manifestations adapted to the expectations of other religious traditions.   And as already noted, God initially refused to identify Himself to Moses by a name; instead, God instructed Moses to tell the Hebrew slaves, "Tell them I will be whatever I will be has sent you (Exodus 3:14)."  Later when Israel neglects social justice, God warns that He called the Ethiopians, the Phillistines, and the Arameans out of their lands into a new land just as He did for Israel (Amos 9:7).  Again, the implication is that God has been revealing Himself through the myths and relgious symbols of these traditions as well.   Such insights may have profound implication for what happens in NDE encounters with the Being of Light.

On the other hand, consider just two very typical revelations from the Being of Light to percipients whose NDEs are attended by outstanding verifications:

(1) "Of all knowledge...there is none more essential than knowing Jesus Christ.  I was told that He is the door through which we will all return.  He is the only door through which we can return.  Whether we learn of Jesus Christ here or while in the spirit, we must eventually accept Him and surrender to His love (Betty, Eadie, "Embraced by by the Light," p. 85).

(2) Atheist Howard Storm gains a similar insight from "Jesus and the angels:"

"In our progression towards God we will meet the Dvine Activity of God, who is known to Christians as Jesus Christ.  Poeple who were not Christians must know the Christ as well.  No one approaches God who does not know the mediator of God.  The Christ is the creative action by which the world was created.  The personification of God has been everywhere thoughout all time and space ("My Descent into Death," p. 55)."

Both revelations remove the urgency of establishing a relationship with the Christ of Christianity in this earthly life.  Yet both seem to imply that a bond with Him is essential in the next life.  Storm's revelation implies that people of other faiths may have NDEs in which they experience Christ through the names and symbols of their own tradtions.  But does the Being of Light identify Himself by these other names?  Or do the percipients impose their own identificaitons on the Being of Light?   Those who dislike this teaching will inevitably dismiss this the pericipient's input.  Of course, in doing so, they nudge their position to the murky metaphysical swamps of unfalsibiability in principle.  On the othe hand, Christian apologists who use such revelations to establish the superiority of Christian revelation make it nearly impoosible to set up a decisive test to check out their claim.  The way out of this impasse is more and broader cross-cultural and inter-religious studies of NDEs that ask better questions.  Also, both sides must find creative ways to address the troublesome issues of falsifilability in principle.  

Don









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DocM
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #17 - Dec 27th, 2006 at 11:15pm
 
To lead up to a new thread, I will pose this question:

  For those who look for scientific verification of NDEs, how would you feel, if 100,000 cases were collected (an order of magnitude higher than ever done) and it was found that in the vast majority of cases from across the world, the Lord Krishna was encountered by most people and named as the being of light?  If you are a practicing christian, Jew or Muslim, how would this scientific data alter your personal religious beliefs.   Would such an encounter, or the scientific confirmation from others be enough to change your views of God and the universe?  If not, why not?

The answer is complicated.  Science is helpful, reproducible, however it never gives the whole story.  The lines blur, and belief is based on personal experience.  Thus we all search, everyone on this site.  But we are, in our hearts not looking for a study telling us who is God, but rather we all wish for, yearn for the personal epiphany of the divine.  We all want to be in front of that being of light, surround by love, and simply KNOW the answer.  Not by being told the result of a scientific survery but by the grace of this trascendent moment. 

What say you?

Matthew
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #18 - Dec 27th, 2006 at 11:20pm
 
W27--- wow-- you opened a can of religious worms!! Roll Eyes
I don't think you wanted such  philosophical answers??? If an infant dies immediately after birth, what do YOU think the infant will experience in the afterlife?  Perhaps a celestial cradle? From that point on, how will that soul be allowed to grow?  Do you think that the young soul will search and find teachers that would instruct the soul to its liking and allow the soul to choose what course of "belief" is most comfortable during it's growth peroid? And what would limit that soul from experiencing many different belief systems until it finds one that is most comfortable and compatable?
If you talk to a child that is dying of cancer, that child may not have a set "religious" point of view about the afterlife. Does that mean that the child will go into a limbo and just idle there? 
In other words, what do YOU think the afterlife will offer you?  I was brought up in a religious belief, but ALWAYS questioned its validity. I couldn't bring myself to beleive that no child could go to heaven or see God's face if it weren't baptized.  I couldn't see my God turning a good, rightous person away because he/she didn't believe in Jesus or Buddha or any other demi god or demi godess. Even though my religion was very strict in its teachings, I didn't believe.  I KNEW that there was more to the afterlife that any conventional religion could teach me. 
Don't think that just because you were brought up in a particular religion, that will restrict your growth in the afterlife. You will ALWAYS for eternity continue to grow in your spirituality and knowing.  You aren't condemed to go to a certain corner in heaven because of your religous belief.  There will come a point in your existance where you will say, "Is this all there is?" and once the question is asked, it will be answered with angelic heralding: "Horay!!! He finally has realizaiton that he is more than religious matter!" And you will grow.   Love Carol Ann
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #19 - Dec 28th, 2006 at 1:35am
 
[Matthew:]  "For those who look for scientific verification of NDEs, how would you feel, if 100,000 cases were collected (an order of magnitude higher than ever done) and it was found that in the vast majority of cases from across the world, the Lord Krishna was encountered by most people and named as the being of light?  If you are a practicing christian, Jew or Muslim, how would this scientific data alter your personal religious beliefs?"
_______________________________________________

Your excellent question proves that you have a firm grasp on the problem of discerning honest and appropriate falsification tests.  If most of these Krishna appearances happened to non-Hindus, I would immediately conclude that sacred Hindu texts express utlimate truth more thoroughly and accurately than the Bible.   I would also immediately suspect that my rejection of reincarnation is misguided and would rethink my critique of Dr. Ian Stevenson's research on childhood past life recall.  i would not reject biblical revelation, but I would have to rethnk how much of it can be salvaged and what role I would allow Jesus Christ to play in my life. 

Of oourse, as my faith crisis intensified, I would consider the possibility that this study was faked or that its revelations derive from a demonic spirit.   But resort to that suspicion would have to be well founded because its use as an excuse to cling to my prior beliefs would otherwise make my Christian outlook unfalsifiable in principle.

So far the best NDE eivdence for a Christian perspective is the great frequency with which Christ appears to atheists as a Being of Light which transforms them into believers.   But replication of even this finding on a larger scale is essential to its use as a significant argument.

Don
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #20 - Dec 28th, 2006 at 11:08am
 
well i belive if consiousness left this physical realm totally beliveing they were gonna go to heaven they would see this they expected to see this if a hindu expected to see the lord krisha ( i know i mispelled it) they would see it. I dont belive everyone is immediatly reenlightened that depends on ones reality i really think all of us are a step ahead of the game and will be able to transcend the lower focus levels and even the higher heavenly planes to get to the sorce im sure those in heaven will wonder if theres more and possibly wink out and join us but that all depends on them but to sum it up its all expectation
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #21 - Dec 28th, 2006 at 12:41pm
 
Question: what if we don't know what our beliefs are, but just know that there is more to life than this physical one on earth?
=) Aras
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #22 - Dec 28th, 2006 at 1:52pm
 
Greetings Aras,

Do you know what you  *don't* expect in the Afterlife?  I bet you could narrow down those options pretty easily. 
These times we live in don't give us much encouragement to think out such beliefs, but if you can take some time, you'll find you know what is paradise and what is not. And since the Afterlife has differing areas for differing beliefs, you don't have to match what you've been told in the past; there'll be a place for you anyway.  You could even start a list now so you don't use up some 'heavenly' time later.  Smiley
Reportedly, there's a 'reception area' when you first arrive. Perhaps they continue to discuss your options with you.

Betson


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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #23 - Dec 28th, 2006 at 8:29pm
 
Betson--- in the Welcoming Center/ Reception area, that is exactly what takes place.  "There" is where a spirit can first wonder around and enjoy the sites, kick back and relax.  When that spirit's guide "feels" the spirit is ready to take on more--- the spirit is guided into the reception hall where "the past is viewed" by the new arrival, while the guide waits "outside" because the guide will not judge.  After the review, the guide will join the new arrival again and discuss what options are available to the new arrival.  This will include further education, a look at different belief systems, rejoing other departed spirits.  We graduate from grade 3 (this third dimentional world) to grade 4. If you are an acceptional student, the you are able to skip some grades to continue at a much higher vibration. 
Most "religions" also teach this, though maybe not so simplistic.  In the Catholic Church, angels are described as the lower and the higher angels. And, they too may advance in God's heaven.  ---L&L cat
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #24 - Dec 28th, 2006 at 8:47pm
 
Identcat,

Swedenborg has frequently visited Paradise and its Welcoming Center near spectacular parks. He locates this region in the World of Spirits, not in the Heavens.  And he observes that the principle of like attracts like only gradually engages these new arrivals.  Consequently, many of them still eventually wind up in lower hellish planes as their core personality unfolds with all its lusts, preferences, and affinities.

But let me ask you a more basic question.  Why do so many ssume that a Welcoming Center is unique to the so-called Focus 27?  Is it not likely that most Belief System Territories would have a Welcoming Center,  lovely parks, a Healing Center, and a Hall of Knowledge?  A doctrinaire acceptance of the limited explorations of Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen can inflict a false impression on newbies who won't take the time to explore  the variety of insights of the best astral explorers with fantastic verifications.  A humble and open mind is needed which allows the truth to be more complicated than initial impressons and distorted by the inevitable inconsistencies resulting from premature inferences and bogus astral experiences.   The quest is eminently worthwhile, but more complex that we would prefer.

Don
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Re: at the time we die
Reply #25 - Dec 28th, 2006 at 9:25pm
 
The welcoming center was a description given by Robert Monroe and he used the focus level of 27 as a guide to those who need reassurance that there is a spiritual ladder to climb (hence the counting from 1 to 27) and as a security enhancement to the mind.  When I read T. Lobsang Rampa, some 25 years ago, he describe the Welcome as thus: When the person dies, the spirit goes to a huge room.  In the center of the room is a circular crystal globe that the deceased will look into.  The guide who has been sent to bring you to this room will leave so you may view your life in privacy. You are your most hash judge. (In my mind, once a snob, always a snob. If you think you did no wrong on earth, why would you judge yourself harshly?  A snob would still say "Oh I was so perfect". My thoughts on that.) After reviewing you recent past life, all other past lives are then shown to you.  You will then have time alone in this crystal review room to adjust to your new dimention.  Your assigned spirit guide will then reenter the room and take you outside where you can talk things over with your guide and make a decision on which course of action you will now take.

In my Catholic upbringing, I was told that when I die, I first go to limbo.  If I was baptized, I will pass through this level (the impression I always had was flat levels of clouds in layers) and go to purgatory, where, if I have any venial sins, I must stay an suffer until all those sins are forgiven by God, at which point my guarduan angel will bring me to paradise.  If I had mortal sins, I would be sent to hell with no way out. (I never beleived this). Once I reached paradise, it would reflect MY conception of what paradise should be.  I would be able to join all my relatives and friends who have died before me.  If I disliked someone (very un-catholic of me) then I wouldn't have to see that person in paradise.  I would still have to earn my way to heaven and only God's angels could see his face.  I could never become an angel.  Only God makes angels to serve him directly. 

So --- here are three different view points.  What do I think?  All of the above hold some validity.  I will know my heaven when I get there. I choose not one way, but many.  Love and Light--- Carol Ann
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The three things you can never take back:
The spoken word.
The unkind thought.
The misused hour.
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