I was going to post this on the "sleep deprivation thread," but then decided there was merit in starting a thread on this topic itself. 

A bit of background is in order.  I was in my office after a particularly long session this week (I'm a physician), and I was extremely tired.  I relaxed in a comfortable desk chair, and gradually my sensory input shut down as in meditation.  It was a powerful relaxation response.  Mind awake/body asleep.  I had an image of my comfortable home couch, and in an instant, with eyes closed, I was there.  I got a "read" on my surroundings, and was convinced that I was there.  Some things, however, were different than the exact image of my home - just like described in OOB.  I knew that my four year old should be running around, with TV and noise and what not, but nothing else was there.  I sat there for a while, then shifted my thought.

I really did not know where I was, but it had been a long day, and this was playful for me.  Sensory input was minimized, so I drifted.  Being in my office chair was one of only several possibilities, and I was almost like an electron, using the Heisenberg principle and quantum mechanics of how an object may be in several places at the same time.  I found myself again in my home couch, and would have been surprised if I wasn't there.  Then, with a shake of my head, I forced myself to "wake up."

What was this?  An OOBE?  Lucid dream?  Reality or imagination?  Clearly it was not a pure verifiable experience, as I was not transported to my house as an objective observer of my young son and wife.  And so, I ask - how many of our OOBEs are "real" in C1 and how many occur in our imaginations?

For those steeped in New Age thought - it doesn't matter, for wherever your conscious awareness is - there you are - be it imagination or a dream or what we call verifiable physical reality.  For many with a scientific preference on this site - it does matter.  Sceintists see those who believe imagination is "real" as delusional. 

I therefore think that this one experience encapsulates the debate on OOBE, mind and reality.  We are, essentially our thoughts.  However, we all acknowledge to each other, in our shared physical reality that there are such things as delusions, hallucinations, and visions that are subjective and personal, but not verifiable.

I therefore wonder what part of going OOB is a belief system unto itself?  I remember Bruce writing of his early frustration in not achieving OOBEs - and then his breakthrough realizing that one did not have to leave one's body in an astral form (which is to my mind part of a belief system), in order to explore, experience and learn.  Some remote viewers get images of people and things without leaving their bodies at all. 

I have heard from many sources that part of understanding our true nature is the knowledge that we are more than our bodies.  We create these vehicles, and discard them after physical death.  However we need not create an "astral" vehicle to explore.  Ultimately our conscious awareness is bigger than the vehicle and transcends it as we get closer to God. 

So what say you?  Are OOBEs imaginary or real and verifiable in our physical world?  From my recent experience, I can say that the dividing line between imagination and reality is not as solid as some would believe...


Matthew

Doc, I can appreciate the quandary you’ve laid out.  How do we know that something is real?

Traditionally, science wants everything to be physically demonstrated.  To some degree, though, science has outpaced itself.  Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle is a good example.  No one has ever seen a probability wave (or wave function) but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a valid concept.  We assume validity because we can observe its effects.  But the kicker is that the act of observation collapses the wave function and determines where those electrons end up. 

This reminds me of Bruce’s article of the experimenters’ expectations determining the results in the remote detection of staring experiment.  The person who believed something was possible got one set of results and the one who didn’t believe in it got the opposite set of results – even though they used the same equipment in the same location and randomly drew from the same pool of test volunteers.  Our expectations or belief systems may just determine what we observe.

It seems to me that science has come up against a wall of sorts.  A hundred years ago who would have thought that we’d now have quantum physics and the uncertainty principle as well as new sub-fields of “fuzzy logic”, “chaos theory”, etc.?  I read in the NY Times this morning that Bayesian statistics regards probability as dependent upon one’s opinion about the odds of something occurring.  It’s mind-boggling. 

In the past, when science has hit one of those walls it eventually comes up with a new paradigm or model.  I suspect the new model will have to take the nature of consciousness into account.  A nice thing about science is that different people can reproduce the same experiments with the same results.  But with consciousness, everyone is different and unique.  Perhaps it’s impossible to duplicate someone else’s experiences in this realm.  Just the same each of our experiences is real. 

One of the attractive aspects of Bruce Moen’s books was the healthy dose of skepticism that Bruce had to overcome in his search for validation of his own experiences.  His books don’t say this is how it is but this is what I experienced and here are some exercises you might try and maybe you’ll have similar experiences.  Based on reading of other folks experiences it seems to me that there is a good amount of similarity.  People aren’t going to have identical experiences but the convergence of the different experiences is remarkable.

Can’t we assume that this similarity and convergence of experiences constitutes some sort of verification?  I don’t think we’re all delusional.  You certainly don’t seem that way and yet you describe an interesting and rather specific OOB experience.

Rob

RobC said:  People aren’t going to have identical experiences but the convergence of the different experiences is remarkable
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this is true. it reminds me when I first came here I wasn't sure I could contacts guides or that there were guides. its actually no different than believing in angels as we did in other centuries, if you consider the definition of an angel is "messenger."

Bruce's book talked about guides as does other books such as shaman books, and the bible has its burning bushes..I contemplated a universe built upon the principle of benevolence in conjunction with guides. seemed slightly not realistic at the time, but I remembered all the people I saw in my first retrieval and these were the guides Bruce talks of. part of the benevolent network I didn't quite believe in.
I never for a moment doubted the reality of the first retrieval but it was just too much for my then present belief system to figure out what had just happened to me that I was there being asked to help someone come out of their dream.
I was certainly not an angel, but I had stepped into position of messenger for the retrievee and this gave me a sense of I was more than I thought I was, and so was the rest of humanity.

since reading Bruce and Monroe I have followed their maps on more than one occassion to experiment and the results were I would have my own specific and personal paranormal experience by the use of the breath, or utilizing intention or playing with the perciever/interpretor to produce new insight into who and what consciousness is, and who am I specifically, realizing I am whatever I say I am, and what I wish to become.  so the perception of what reality is must be individualized and all of us are valid viewpoints expressing.

thanks for mentioning the observer influences reality by the mere observation, another drop of water goes into the vat of the collective conscious. and here we do swim. I think I patted myself on the back for I actually understood every word you said about science, although I prefer the arts, not the sciences, consciousness study is a science too and its true we are barely touching the edge of a future society where we are more awakened to how we create reality.
what I see happening is humanity becoming aware there is a network of guides or CW workers, like an army standing at attention ready to serve the purposes of our evolving for the highest good, without interfering in free will of man to be able to destruct himself despite this network of helpers available when they are called upon.

we were talking about Doc's use of the word electron to define what he felt like when perceiving himself to be in another location. I agree that is apt terminology. the reason I agree and what makes astral voyages real for me personally is the landscape is "electrified." I do not understand electricity, but just because I don't, does not mean I cannot benefit from flipping on my electric light switch.
when I astral travel I have ridden a current of electric properties, this tends to create lucidity in the experience which is unlike a dream landscape; however the dream landscape is symbolic language for the brain translator to figure out where the spirit has flown and what it has learned. I can conclude there are degrees of consciousness and that our fullness to attain is part of the physical dream, for that too must be a dream, if our fullness is not here.
the picture below says a lot to me about astral voyaging; notice the 3 bodies are like holographical...and notice our thoughts produce another thought..then we ride thought as a carpet and we can call this having a rote to follow which only leads to another rote..so fly if you can, every chance, upon your aspiration, for all too soon we will no longer be in this same spot talking to one another....[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/c3f03cec.jpg


this is exactly what it feels like when I astral travel, like flying, but not always with the body form such as the picture depicts, sometimes just a mere pinpoint of light, or an electron as our friend Doc described.

Thanks for the replies.  I am skeptical as to whether what I described was an actual OOBE.  That is in fact why I posted the thread.

Don, as I recall Ingo Swann was perhaps best known for his remote viewing skills.  He could take a target located on the other side of the world and describe the target sometimes in striking and exquisite detail and location from images he would get from his subconscious mind.  He worked with the US military during the Cold war on this, and apparently was able to teach almost anyone the technique.  During remote viewing, there clearly was no OOB travel - though Swann may have experienced OOB separate from his remote viewing as you describe.  Swann is/was, arguably one of the most talented mystics of our current age.

I believe that or spirit/soul, our essence, distilled to its basic level, is conscious awareness.  This is what Descartes found when he searched for the "I" and came up wit I think, therefore I am.  This awareness does not require a vehicle to travel or explore - hence Swann's success in remote viewing.  

This is why, part of me thinks of OOBEs as a belief system unto itself.  The person creates the required astral body to explore, as it is felt to be necessary.  Even as belief systems of the physcial body fall off, an astral body appears to take its place.  One could argue against my interpretation, as Monroe had OOBEs spontaneously, without understanding or willing them to occur.  

I believe that OOBEs are an important step for some in letting go of belief systems and knowing we are more than our physcial bodies.  I believe that our soul or conscious awareness transcends the need for a physical vehicle, however.  

Swedenborg was truly amazing.  I do not know why there are few like him and centuries have gone by without seeing one like him.  He used to converse with angels/deceased humans, yet I am unclear as to how often he went astral, and how often he simply had the conversations in a state of mind awake/body asleep.  

If Swedenborg could duplicate Swann's remote viewing, he might have accessed images from across the world of burning buildings, etc. without having flown astrally to move his form.  

This is an important topic, for it gets to the heart of the matter of bodies and vehicles along with perception.  My experiences lead me to believe that we don't need an astral vehicle in order to experience nonphysical realities, and obtain information.  

Rob,
I agree with your excellent points on the limitation of science to answer these questions.  I'm not sure that my posted experience would qualify as a verified oOB, however.

Albert,,
Your contributions did make me think.  In part, I feel Don is too dismissive of his lucid dreams as being wishful or imaginative folly, when there may be images and messages there which could have real verifications and meanings in the physical world.  

The question remains - when is imagination, flight or fantasy and when is it reality?  I'm not sure that there is an easy answer to this statement.  We can agree on criteria for what is real in our physcial plane, but that will not prove that imagined events are not some form of spiritual communication.

Matthew

Blink said: But, then, I also would very much like to hear more stories of specific and accurate verifications.  I just wonder if we as humans are still evolving and these abilities of perception are in their infancy. I'm sure there were scientists in many eras who were discouraged by the limitations of the times they lived in.
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Precisely. speaking personally if there were no afterlife, and the individuality which accompanies that thought I would have taken myself out long ago for there is nothing here which makes me want to continue here. except for love.
you're right on Blink. in many ways, we are a primitive planet in the spiritual areas.

Doc said:This is an important topic, for it gets to the heart of the matter of bodies and vehicles along with perception.  My experiences lead me to believe that we don't need an astral vehicle in order to experience nonphysical realities, and obtain information.   

Rob,
I agree with your excellent points on the limitation of science to answer these questions.  I'm not sure that my posted experience would qualify as a verified oOB, however.

Albert,,
Your contributions did make me think.  In part, I feel Don is too dismissive of his lucid dreams as being wishful or imaginative folly, when there may be images and messages there which could have real verifications and meanings in the physical world.   

The question remains - when is imagination, flight or fantasy and when is it reality?  I'm not sure that there is an easy answer to this statement.  We can agree on criteria for what is real in our physcial plane, but that will not prove that imagined events are not some form of spiritual communication.

Matthew
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yes, you are beyond the need of an astral body to gather your knowings Doc, but that doesn't mean your astral body is not there if you do want to utilize it.
the astral body is the emotional body containing mental rotes, to my perception and understanding. its very fluid and changable of necessity. along the lines of the concept "thoughts are things." thoughts also have form on the other side. we are essentially a thought of god. so it boils down to believing in a higher power or denying the higher power is there, in charge.
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I agree wholeheartedly we are within a time where we must embrace science and bring it into spiritual concepts, not necessarily religious concepts, so much as getting to the core of knowledge of how our physical vehicle relates to spiritual bodies. this would be the science field that Doc works in and he's right on time to participate in this board.
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the images and messages found in dreamstate, astral travel, meditation, altered states, talking to the deceased, imagination, phasing..these experiences are precious and intrinsic to the developing soul, but they can only be given meaning by the individual who receives them. if its already decided these experiences are meaningless, then they will cease to arrive, as a decision has been put into place that they are without meaning. that is the scientific line of thought which can be supplanted by genuine inquiry, which can be undertaken by ceasing to be judgmental of those who do find meaning in their inner world experiences. to do this necessitates setting an intention and making a decision to be explorative despite nonbelief. from my experience, we need not astral travel, meditate, go into altered states or anything like that to grow spiritually; we need only change our mind and set intentions, realizing there is nothing out there to attain that is not within you. the kingdom is within. even the bible says this. and it is the truth.
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when one no longer feels the need to prove something, a milestone has occurred in the soul. yet we need to self express, it is another development factor of the soul.
fantasy is mostly what we find in comic books, it entertains the mind, it has its place as does video games where we defeat our opponent in our imagination. if one is a parent we do not deny our children the enjoyment of their healthy fantasies for that is what play is. all work and no play is not good.
the conscious use of the imagination is another thing entirely from fantasy. this is merely thinking outside the box to become, to ask yourself what your experience shall be here, for if you can imagine, you can become that. whether it is to become free of conflict or something else.
in summation it is we ourselves who decide what is real by the meaning we give to it. we will not get beyond doubt until we take the inner journey inside where the kingdom is and where all are welcomed home.

your recent journey Doc has meaning to me, and I submit it came from your higher intelligence to be given to you, to be placed here for us. here, is an important "place". those that need to read you will and find their own connections.

I still say we are in the shift in consciousness and full steam ahead..love, alysia