A bit harsh, recoverer, but I agree with the general gist.

Nicholsk:

If a hellish vision greeted you as a child in a near-death experience, this was your own vision and meeting.  Many have had NDEs and found heaven, and come back with the love of God instilled into them (they also seem to lose the fear of dying, knowing there is a heaven). 

I urge you to consider that your own vision may have had to do with where your thought was at the time, or that it was due to other variables.

Don is one of the most informed erudite christian scholars on this site.  His remarks about early christian writing, choice of the terms "beast," and the mark make a lot of sense historically. 

Open your mind and heart to love.  Otherwise, a hellish belief system will not bring much love in this earthly life.  We find here that belief systems without an open mind seem to "trap" people both while incarnate on earth and after death.

Peace to you,

Matthew

Doc:

Perhaps I was a bit harsh, but not near as harsh as the dispensationalist viewpoint.

According to it, the rapture is going to be a glorious time, despite the fact that millions, perhaps even billions of souls are going to end up in hell for all of eternity, no matter how loving they are, simply because they didn't come around to believing in a particular way.

According to it, it is okay to get ready to go to war against your fellow man, if they don't believe precisely as you do.

According to it, it is okay to demonize others and isolate yourself from them, if they don't believe precisely as you do.

According to it, you don't have to worry about things like the environment, long term energy needs, and the national budget, because the rapture is going to bring all the righteous souls to heaven and leave all of the unworthy heathens behind to fight it out.

It upsets me when people say they are representing the way of God and Jesus when they speak according to the above. Why shouldn't I get upset?  Perhaps sometimes we don't get upset enough, and become docile.

On the other hand, I do admint that I need to become more balanced about how I react to things that upset me. This dispensationalist thing is like a thorn in my side, because I believe it is really harmful and doesn't represent the spirit of Christ.

I copied my thoughts about fallen angels from another post.

I don't believe in lucifer fallen angel stories.  They just don't add up.

From a Biblical perspective, lucifer is first mentioned in Isaiah. BUT, BUT, not in the original Hebrew version. The Hebrew version only speaks of a fallen king of Babylonia. A physical person. Not an angel. Fallen angel language was added in the 4th century, along with eternal darnation language.

If the people who come up with this fallen angel business ever visited a heavenly realm, they would know that fallen angel business makes no sense at all.  Heavenly realms aren't anything like the physical World. They are permeated with God's love and truth. There isn't anything there to corrupt a spirit. People go bad in the physical World because they have a hard time finding the love, happiness, peace and sense of self worth they inwardly yearn for. These qualities are found quite effortlessly in heavenly realms, so there is no need for a spirit to go astray and become evil. When I've experienced divine love I felt so much humility and gratitude, it would be impossible to go astray like a fallen angel supposedly does.  

Plus God is the infinite power from which everything comes. Anything he creates, no matter how big, is finite in comparision. Certainly an angel in heaven would know God well enough to know that it would be absolutely ridiculous to try to stand up against God. It would be like a wave trying to stand up to the ocean of which it is a miniscule part, or a flame caused by a match trying to pick a fight with the sun. The problem is that some people believe that God is an old man who sits on a thrown like a king and can be taken over like a king.

If somehow, for some peculiar reason, an angel did start to become confused to the point where it would fall, certainly God and the other beings of light that exist in a heavenly realm would realize this and come to this angels aid. It wouldn't be like an unsuspected coup on the physical realm. If an angel did somehow manage to go bad, its vibrational rate would go down and it would end up in a lower realm. This would make it powerless to do anything against beings who vibrate at a higher level, and it couldn't return to a heavenly realm until it got rid of the confusion that caused its vibrational rate to go down.

If an angel created by God could mess up, then what would stop any spirit from making the same mistake after it goes to heaven? Isn't heaven supposed to be a place of eternal peace and love?

There might be some confused earthbound spirits that are against their "concept" of God, and even some spirits in hell like realms that are also opposed to their "concept" of God. Just like there are physical people who are against their "concept" of God. I wrote "concept" of God, because it impossible for a person/spirit to be opposed to what God actually is. Such confused souls are powerless to do anything significant. The most they could do is try to influence a person who already shares a similar state of mind.

Juditha:

I would say that a lot of us love God, but it is hard to know what it is all about while here in the physical, so sometimes without really wanting to we misrepresent him.

There is a limit of course. For example, I really doubt that a man who hijaks an airplane and flies it into a building is doing so out of his love for God, despite what he believes.


Quote:

Hi Recoverer i respect your veiws,but i just wrote about what i had read,like everyone else on here,but i dont always know what everything means,all i know is that i love God because he loves me for all my faults and he knows i dont get everything right.

I hope he comes soon to change this world ,because i dont like this world very much,sometimes irs to hard to take and i need God so much sometimes,im glad hes there bacause i couldnt get through without him,if he wasnt i would give up completely.

God is there when noone else is and i will read your link.I do respect your veiws recoverer,which i have learned a lot from on this afterlife and i thank you for that.

Love and God bless   Love Juditha

Hi Juditha,

people will choose to believe what they want to believe, in response to what is out there.

I have come full circle and definitely believe in the reality of evil in the spiritual realm, and tend to give credence to the mountain of scholarship, visions, and experiences that have occurred consistently over the past 2,000 years....whether it is the Shroud, the cloak at Guadelupe, a host of crying icons, things like the Summa Theologica of Thomas Acquinas, or the very real experiences of modern day exorcists which are increasing at a rapid rate (almost interesting that they are increasing at a rapid rate in an age of decreasing belief...or maybe that's not such a coincidence.)

If you choose to not believe in the existence of the devil, fallen angels, etc, then you call into question the viability and/or truth of the bible itself which is very clear on the subject. An individual can choose whether to believe in biblical teachings or not...that is the very essence of freewill, but in regard to the Christian faith the apostles of Jesus accepted the reality of evil spirits and so did the first generation of their own disciples, which you can see clearly in the first wave of Church Fathers such as the Saints Polycarp, St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch, and St. Ireaneus.

On the subject of Revelations, I have already addressed this in an earlier post somewhere which you may call up...but the belief that Revelations is simply "past history" applying ot the 1st century Christian community, and that the beast was Rome and Nero was the 666 figure is a rather easy argument to knock holes in when seen in light of the prophecy and of the progression of history itself.  Nero's fall didn't usher in a 1,000 year period of peace on earth, and even worse persecuters like Diocletian, Maximian, and Domitian followed Nero over the course of the next few centuries.  Furthermore, John the Evangelist was said to be on the isle of Patmos up to around 90AD, which would have made him very aware of Domitian as well.  I don't think John would be putting out a prophecy about Nero when he was aware of Nero's successors, etc.  I definitely encourage you to read the book of Revelations and then try to come to the conclusion that "this has already happened".  Yes, there are people who will go out on tangents to try to make it fit that box, and even come up with even more strange intperpretations, such as Edgar Cayce, so I think it is important to read it for yourself.  As for my part, John the Evangelist was no wimp and he spoke and wrote with great authority, and I don't think he was being anything less than clear when he spoke of a global age under the power of the Devil that would be overthrown by a second coming of Christ. 

You can easily knock another few blocks out of that "Revelations is 1st AD and Rome" argument when you look at Revelations in light of the epistles of Peter, Paul, and even statements of Jesus which make clear references to the same age and the same events, and shed further light on the futuristic nature of this prophecy.  See also Daniel, in the Old Testament.

Again, read all of those references in the other books of the Bible that also correspond to the book of Revelations, and then try to say it has "already happened".  I don't think so.

on the subject of the Old Testament, most biblical scholars and Rabbi's most certainly understand Isaiah, Daniel, etc. references to mean the Devil and Demonic principalities.  Alot of Old Testament writing is also understood to view somethings in a dual nature at the same time...I.E.  Discussing a current individual or situation, but at the same time bringing light to a much larger and transcendent issue or truth.

Stephen

If we wander into good vs. evil, just like the discussion of absolute right vs. wrong, then we set up a dualistic mode of thinking.  This thinking then divides into two camps, one which feels that "evil" beings are simply misguided and can still be rehabilitated to see God's love, and the other camp who believes in irredeemable evil that must be confronted.

For those intent on pushing the dualistic model, although I am impressed by cases of possession and the work Don cites of Malachi Martin, I would pose you this question:

why is it that many on this board, many of your best friends and colleagues have not encountered a single demonic spirit in their many years/decades of life?  If you took 100 people you know, how many could say that had?  If not, why not?

You are, in my humble opinion your thoughts and your belief systems.  Thus, Robert Bruce the astral projector is constantly doing battle with "negs," as he calls them.  Could it be that his thoughts/beliefs manifest these entities to him (law of attraction)?  I don't know. 

I have had one encounter while meditating with a dark malevolent cloud that seemed to take control for a few seconds until I pulled myself together and said "Enough!"  I believe that I opened myself up this by my thoughts, however. 

Belief/thought/intent creates reality.


M

STEPHEN'S COMMENTS ABOUT THE MILLENIUM:

I respectfully suggest that you and many Christians misunderstaond John's vision of the Millennium in Revelation 19.   It must first be recognized that John, like later visionaries, cannot be presumed to understand all the imagery presented to him any more than any of us can decipher every aspect of our  highly symbolic dreams.  For example, consider the assumption that the Millennium will supposedly take place on Earth.   John subesequently has a vision of a New Earth: "And I saw a New Heaven and a New Earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea (21:1)."  This New Earth would not have been envisioned unless it were intended for discarnate human habitation.   Yet the New Earth can hardly be construed as our remodelled earth.   In John's vision, our earth has "passed away" and the New Earth lacks any sea!   It seems best to understand this New Earth as an earthlike abode in another spiritual dimension.   After all, most astral adepts agree that our postmortem journey begins with earthlike environs designed to ease our adjustment of noncorporeal existence.  john's New Earth is more reminiscent of Focus 27 in New Age parlance.

Don