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Evil spirits, demons, negative entities.. (Read 32645 times)
LightR_on
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #60 - Oct 21st, 2006 at 7:03pm
 
Dave this is how I understand the process of evolution works down here, and its why we are always told we are the brave. I once took an intuitive art class, we had to draw a Mandela, and intuitively within the circle I draw a wave of spiraling energy from bottom to the top, on this wave I then placed areas of light and dark energy in flow,as the energy moved upward to greater light I then placed the all seeing eye, the third eye along the path. Everyone within the class told me how beautifully my Mandela was and I too loved the beauty and simplicity of it. Then that night I went to bed happy with my days efforts, during the night I was taken to my Mandela (during dream time)my guide tells me you did not look at your Mandela properly, I said I didn't want to see, he said I want you to look, so as instructed I looked and there at the base the very start of the journey is the devil and as I look along the path I have drawn I see much darkness but as I move upward I see more light. My guide then tells me , you did not want to look and see, did you, I said, know I only want to see the light, but he said you know we all started in the dark.

So this is why we are told that we are the brave for its so easy to become trapped within the darkness, here in this reality there is so much darkness because we all started that way. It, the darkness, is not something to be feared ,its something to pity. For these souls are lost to who they are . as I said I have been merged with my higher self many times when we have been trying to guide another soul to help them see and being the journey back to the light .I and my higher self do this because we love these souls. I once was journeying with someone who I deeply loved down here and the love I felt here in the physical was what I would describe as unconditional well on my side anyway.And since this soul and I are know longer in contact here I have been meeting with them through the higher planes.Now on this night I was taken to a house that two dis-incarnate souls where still existing in. I and my higher self are merged as one,

I turn to the two Lady's and ask them do you realize you have pasted?  yes they say to me ,

Did the light come for you? Yes they say

Why did you not go to the light? We where scared they say

Just wait and I will call the light for you, ( at this stage I the me part thinks to myself , what am I saying I don't know how to call the light , then My higher self calls to the light)

I say can you feel the light? Yes we all agree how beautiful the energy of the light is.

Then we move forward to the door, I then notice my Friend who  I know longer have contact with is sitting on a couch to the side of me. The Lady's go into the light and I turn to this other soul, please come to the light, give up your perversion and come to the light, he gets up to leave, there's another soul with me, and they say he will never come to the light, and then with great knowledge and a feeling of almost sarcasm, my higher self said, don't  worry he will come , THEY ALWAYS DO!

Its a long road home thats all I can say , but we will have such great knowledge when where through here.

Love to all
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LaffingRain
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #61 - Oct 21st, 2006 at 8:02pm
 
LightsRon higher self said: don't  worry he will come , THEY ALWAYS DO!
lol. I love this! you deserve my special bouncer to express my own higher self!  my higher self is sometimes almost sarcastic as well..I thought it was just me..

...  ...  ...
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #62 - Oct 21st, 2006 at 11:41pm
 
Hi LightRon-

Well, seems to me that before the light there was nothing but the pure potentiaity for creation.. No taste, co color, no size, no shape, no nothing. Merely potentiality, the "logos", meaning the Rule or Logic, of coming about, but not yet arrived. Then there was light, and with the light, a few places had shadows because we were blocking it. So we called them "darkness". Then, having once given the shadowed areas a name we began to believe in the name as if it were a "thing" - something that the philosopher Bertrand Russell used to call "the fallacy of misplaced concreteness". When we take a flashlight and go to examine darkness, somehow we can never find it. All we find is light.

Perhaps this is the reason that "they always come" - they have no choice, for there is nowhere else to be except in the light. And thus, there is nothing to be seen except the light - unless we insist on focussing on the darkness, which simply brings us to the material world, where the shadows interact according to "the laws of physics" etc. And all that falls off when we stop viewing ourselves in that manner.

dave
On the other hand, I like your story better - has more feeling and more of a dramatic touch.
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #63 - Oct 23rd, 2006 at 10:36am
 
Hi all

Alysia hope you are well.  My studies comes from bits and pieces of writings that I collect.

Shirley thanks for your reply; such a vast subject that I do believe will last a eternity!  The bit about going to the lake of fire, in my mind, is sweet justice for anyone who commits premeditated acts of violation against another so i don't have a problem with it.  But here we must look at the symbol of this teaching - the lake of fire may be symbolic for living with yourself in the spirit world knowing what hurt was caused to others - the heat will be hot and uncomfortable and another life is yearned for to ease and make ammends. Also there is a region (one of the rings of Saturn)  where souls are cast for re-moulding to start again.

But now this very heavy to contemplate and for most as Recoverer said God knows the influences that we have in life.  It takes only a few basic ethics to keep out of the fire.  God wants us to know infinite love and be happy I am convinced of it.  But again as Recoverer said similar; its very difficult to be happy when there is so much trouble and sorrow in the world caused by people.

Shirley, those stories are true but here is the twist - the original teachings had to be kept under cover for certain reasons.  And again what we read on the outside is the first dimensions of the teachings.  I do not hold to any branch of Christianity except the Truth; my studies have always been secular.  Thanks for asking though.  You studied the bible for a long time - hopefully you will find that maybe at sometime the study will come into use.

Dave, yes red and green is far more politically correct! lol.

I enjoyed your post LightR_on and the discussion.

PUL

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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #64 - Oct 23rd, 2006 at 8:45pm
 
The more I poke around this site, the more I see that I must have been lead here...I really enjoy reading everyone's posts here...and these are my favorite types of subjects, and until now, I had no one to discuss them with...so...my very simplified two cents,probably repeat info(are there truly "original" thoughts?) Huh

Anyway...I had some experiences with exorcism..the first ones when I was small...and told my mom about the"future dreams" I was having...the "people"that came and talked with me into the night...and at times my mother did not want to see or witness certain things....b/c she rejects the sensitivity in herself...and I do pity that now..but it lead me to believe I was somehow innately evil, and thought is powerful....and certainly, none of my"sensitivities"were in any way altered or stopped by well meaning pastors...and I went through knowing, that it is in fact true, esp. in the astral state, I was prone to either my own fears being magnified, or really feeling in stereo the pain/fear of others who were attracted perhaps simply b/c I can see/feel/speak to them, depending on the being and probably myself, how it comes through,....etc...and I was convinced I was damned/cursed....otherwise going to hell, and then came a time that I didn't fear or think about it too much, after finding most of my "demons" were in fact misperceptions from self or others, and a way to illustrate an unwanted state of being...etc. It took a long time to make the distinction, and I had help from a deceased family friend I was putting alot of thought energy and love into over the years..and was told,"We are all made/come from, the same divine spark, yet are all on different phases of  learning and growth...start by stating this to them,to help yourself remember(he told me) as well, that you know the truth of who and what they/her/him/it...really is,a part of the same divine spark we all come from..." And this helped me so much,and I was surprised to find this out...and I love how it's kind of stated over and over here as common knowledge....b/c it was a huge turning point for my acceptance of myself, which I am still in the process of...I exhausted myself in the "goodfight"with these entities...and it never ended when I was fighting..one thing I found was turning "on" my own love energy, no matter how afraid I was...was the only thing that sent them really running, or steering clear, when I tried to embrace the energy with love,no matter what it was doing to distract me...

I am still learning...and I cannot say about any of this,but perhaps it's a matter of semantics I'll not understand until/unless I need to...but it always seemed that if there was a God...which I certainly believe, then it makes sense to have the opposite of that unconditional loving and aware state of being...and I've always thought of"hell"or evil as a place of ignorance,or separateness from God, usually, wether intentional or not,a place only we can will or ask for help out or away from...but one thing I know for sure...that my understanding will change as I grow...and even when knowing earthbound spirits,or lower level beings might be projecting this, or myself, projecting fear or pain or hatred of some kind,that even knowing it isn't the"devil" dosen't mean some don't stubbornly profess to be just that....demons,and talk of the devil..who I really understand truly as the "father of lies"...and it can be paralyzingly terrifying when in it...I always had a special interest in helping or wanting to help souls that are stuck......but I don't look for it, kind of just deal with it or spirits having this trouble if they are put in my path now....lol...call that what you will, it can be draining...and my son was talking with some such spirits,and it was really scarey, he is very sensitive,like I was,from a small child...so believe it or not, I've actually had similar conversations with my son about this phenomenon...and told him too to stay clear, and how to recognize certain things about such entities, b/c at least to me, it seems all such ones are loving the thought energy they are given,feeding off our fear and our own pains or ignorances...and it seems all I've so far dealt with have either accepted the "light"...or not been ready,however in that case there seems to be a time limit now as to how long they can hang out,(around me,or my home) if there is no change...and I don't know at all how or why that is or how it works....but I love reading everyones replies...b/c it's very validating,and also puts alot of new concepts into my mind...

I know the most scarey thing was watching my son be influenced by this...though now it's a thing of the past...and I can feel that dark fear at times,and it can take me off guard...however I am absolutely confident it's like all bark and no real bite in the end...and I try to not give those things too much power anymore, they had a blast with me when I was convinced I was going to hell, and was evil somehow myself...and now I see the only way I'm truly affected is by unintentionally  giving that power away...very interesting topic,there was a time I'd say,heck yes, they exist...but now I'm not completely sure that they are independently existing without the energy we or something gives it.......wishing all the best......................T
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"All truth is eternal. Truth is nobody's property; has no race, no individual can lay exclusive claim to it. Truth is the nature of all souls."--Swami Vivekananda
 
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augoeideian
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #65 - Oct 25th, 2006 at 9:21am
 
Hi T

You must feel you have been totally ignored, please know this is not intentionally and you wrote such a sincere and lovely post. Hi  Smiley

What I really loved was this coming from your family member;
Quote:
,"We are all made/come from, the same divine spark, yet are all on different phases of  learning and growth...start by stating this to them,to help yourself remember(he told me) as well, that you know the truth of who and what they/her/him/it...really is,a part of the same divine spark we all come from..."


When you receive a message like this you know it comes from a wise soul.  And of course it is not evil.  Im sure you would know the signs if you did.

Seeing Spirits is a vast subject and you in the right company; a few members here do too.
I have studied quite a bit of Steiner's work and he covers this quite intensively.

First of all, Spirits are drawn to us because they look to us for nourishment.  Especially in matters to do with the spiritual world. I know this sounds like a contradiction in terms but when we leave our bodies what we have learnt in earth is what we take with us.  

Spirits cannot read in the spiritual world (Roger I hope you read this as we had this discussion) and there are very few that can access the great non-fiction library halls.  So Spirits are drawn to us when we read (silently or aloud) metaphysical studies and Im sure other literature but mainly this because they are more so interested.  We do a great favour in reading to Spirits.

Now, also it is said when we pass over we go to our ancestoral home.  This is where live with the people who are part of our blood chain, this includes people who we have had a relationship in earth for over 10 years or more and here we find that these relationships are brothers or sisters etc.

It is said that the Spirits that are drawn to us in earth are the Spirits that we knew while in earth (spanning quite a few lives this is) and they seek nourishment from us in the areas of learning.

This does not say, we do not understand the bigger picture when we become Spirits.  We do according to our dimension of perception.  But actually advancing the consciousness, and here I would say the intellectual soul in understanding the worlds that are before us, is difficult.  We do however, have our accumulated past life experiences and education to draw upon.

There are other kinds are spirits though they are not actually spirits they are the memories of spirits normally associated with a haunted houses and here it is not direct lineage.  

T, these are my studies and look forward to your reply. Also, welcome any comments other members would like to make.

Love to you and your gifted son.
Caryn





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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #66 - Oct 25th, 2006 at 12:17pm
 
Karmickiss:

What you wrote below is so true.  In a way, it doesn't matter what the nature of evil beings is, because the "IMPORTANT THING" is that you live and see things from the perspective of your true self, higher self, love. If you do this, it is completely meaningless what some negative minded spirit has in mind.

One doesn't need to read a bunch of books. You can get all kinds of wierd theories from them. It is better if one tries to see things from one's higher self perspective. A lot of books do nothing more but add fuel to the fire of unnecessary fear based thought patterns.


I've seen lots of demonic looking images. All sorts. Why? Because my higher self showed them to me so I would come to understand how meaningless they are. They are nothing but paper dragons, cartoon monsters. If a negative minded spirit appears in such a way it uses God's beautiful light energy to create a ridiculous looking costume, because this is the best thing it can come up with, because it has cut itself off from the power and clarity of its divine self. It is nothing but a cheap parlor trick.


[quote author=karmickiss link=1160687858/60#64 date=1161650745]really is,a part of the same divine spark we all come from..." And this helped me so much,and I was surprised to find this out...and I love how it's kind of stated over and over here as common knowledge....b/c it was a huge turning point for my acceptance of myself, which I am still in the process of...I exhausted myself in the "goodfight"with these entities...and it never ended when I was fighting..one thing I found was turning "on" my own love energy, no matter how afraid I was...was the only thing that sent them really running, or steering clear, when I tried to embrace the energy with love,no matter what it was doing to distract me...
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #67 - Oct 25th, 2006 at 11:42pm
 
Hello to everyone,
   I have really enjoyed reading through the wealth of information here, and absolutely am warmed by the people that are reading and posting here, as it's been such a help to say the least!

Thanks aug., for sharing your studies with me, and I am likely to go back and re-read alot of these posts, b/c I absolutely love being able to read through,and have my mind and soul stimulated by new informatin,and thinking about the concepts presented here.I appreciate the time you took to share what you did with me,and I am looking forward to hearing more or reading more of your postings in the future....

I also enjoyed what you were saying, recoverer,and thanks for also taking the time to write it down..and I like the whole thing about our"higher selves"...I'm new to the site, and therefore some things I never had words for I hear here,and they fit so perfectly.....I can picture a part of my higher self being the little voice that tells me or gives me the gut feeling about wether something is either a good idea, or not such a good idea....I can say safetly that whenever I went against or ignored what that little voice inside me was trying say, that I always wished that I had went with my instinct...and also when making a right decision.....there's that feeling like, thank goodness...and felt it's something apart from my intellect, b/c my mind can trick me into thinking some things are good ideas, and then it might really be the worst,lol....so I felt there must be a higher self, like a part that is in sync with what our souls remember to be "truths"

Oh dear,of course as soon as I get going..I have a situation to take care of here on the homestead......but I look forward to coming here , and it's b/c I find it to be the perfect for me in so many ways,take care all....T
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #68 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 12:46am
 
Augo wrote

Quote:
Spirits cannot read in the spiritual world (Roger I hope you read this as we had this discussion) and there are very few that can access the great non-fiction library halls.  So Spirits are drawn to us when we read (silently or aloud) metaphysical studies and Im sure other literature but mainly this because they are more so interested.  We do a great favour in reading to Spirits.

Now, also it is said when we pass over we go to our ancestoral home.  This is where live with the people who are part of our blood chain, this includes people who we have had a relationship in earth for over 10 years or more and here we find that these relationships are brothers or sisters etc.


Can I ask where this information comes from?

My own perspective comes from reading accounts of past life and life between life therapists, in particular Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  These two therapists alone have hypnotised many thousands of clients.  Their accounts of what happens in the "spirit" world varies greatly from the above opinion.  But then, here on the Board, we all have varying opinions and it is interesting to read what others believe in. 

With love
Irene
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #69 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 3:20am
 
I too would like to know where you got your information on not being able to read in the spirit world. This goes against everything I've read. I know that there are great libraries in the spirit world and that people go there to read about anything and everything.

Love, Mairlyn
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #70 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 4:42am
 
Hi all, hi T nice to see you again  Smiley

Thanks for asking where my information on 'Spirits cannot read' comes from.  It comes from the genius Rudolf Steiner.  I notice that there has been a few anti words said about him (don't worry he was used to this most his life from sceptics) This comes about from not reading or understanding this genius's work.  I will post a short biography on Steiner in the off-topics section for your interest and I post here further clarification on the above statement.  Sorry it might be a bit long but the truth is never short lol.

Rudolf Steiner - Occult Science

The soul, as it becomes clairvoyant, will progress further, beyond the elemental world we have been describing in these lectures, and it will penetrate the actual spiritual world.

In the elemental world there are many happenings and phenomena surrounding the clairvoyant soul that remind it of the characteristics, the forces, and of all sorts of other things in the sense world, but rising into the spiritual world, the soul finds the happenings and beings totally different.The capacities and points of view it could get on with in the sense world have to be given up to a far greater degree.

The descriptions of the real spiritual world use pictures definitely taken from impressions and observations of the physical sense world. All the happenings must be represented by images taken from the physical sense world.

Just as the soul surrounded in the physical sense world by a landscape of rocks, mountains, woods and fields must take these for granted as reality if it is healthy, the clairvoyant soul, too, outside the physical and etheric bodies can observe itself surrounded in exactly the same way by a landscape constructed of these pictures. Indeed, the pictures have not been chosen at random; as a matter of fact they are the actual environment of the soul in this world.

Suppose you open a book. At the top of the page you find a line slanting from the left above to the right below, then a line slanting from bottom left to top right, another line parallel to the first and still another parallel to the second; then come two vertical lines, the second shorter than the first and connected at the top to its center. Then comes something like a circle that is not quite closed with a horizontal line in its center; finally come two equal vertical lines joined together at the top. You don't go through all this when you open a book and look at the first thing that stands there, do you? You read the word “when.” You do not describe the w as lines and the e as an incomplete circle, and so on; you read. When you look at the forms of the letters in front of you, you enter into a relationship with something that is not printed on the page; it is, however, indicated to you by what is there on that page.

It is precisely the same with the relationship of the soul to the whole picture-world of the spirit region. What the soul has to do is not merely to describe what is there, for it is much more like reading. The pictures before one are indeed a cosmic writing, a script, and the soul will gain the right inner mood by recognizing  that this whole world of pictures — woven like a veil before the spiritual world — is there to mediate, to manifest the true reality of that world. Hence in the real sense of the word we can speak of reading the cosmic script in the spirit region.

One should not imagine that learning to read this cosmic writing is anything like learning to read in the physical world. Reading today is based more or less on the relation of arbitrary signs to their meaning. Learning to read as we have to do for such arbitrary letters is unnecessary for reading the cosmic script which makes its appearance as a mighty tableau, expressing the spiritual world to the clairvoyant soul. The meaning itself can be said to flow out of the pictures.

Reading to Spirits
As we are together here for the first time, I want to speak in an aphoristic way of matters pertaining to the spiritual world. Such matters are better and more easily  expressed by word of mouth than in writing. This is not only because the prejudices existing in the world make it difficult in many respects to commit to writing everything that one so gladly conveys to hearts devoted to Anthroposophy, but it is also difficult because spiritual truths lend themselves better to the spoken word than to writing or to print.

This applies very specially to spiritual truths of a more intimate kind. For these things to be written down and printed always goes rather against the grain, although in our day it has to be done. It is always difficult to allow the more intimate truths relating to the higher worlds themselves to be written down and printed, precisely because writing and printing cannot be read by the spiritual Beings of whom one is speaking. Books cannot be read in the spiritual world.

True, for a short period after death books can still be read through remembrance.

The spiritual Beings begin to read only when human beings on the earth read books — that is to say, when what is contained in the books comes to life in the  thoughts of men. Then the spiritual Beings read in these thoughts; but what is written or printed is like darkness for the Beings of the spiritual worlds. And so  when something is committed to writing or to print, one has the feeling that communications are being made behind the back of the spiritual Beings. This is a  feeling which a man of modern culture may not wholly share, but every true occultist will experience this feeling of distaste for writing and print.

Something else that will make an even stronger appeal in connection with intercourse between the dead and the living is the fact that in a certain sense the  souls of the dead too need nourishment; not, of course, the kind of nourishment required by human beings on the earth, but of the nature of spirit-and-soul. By  way of comparison, just as we on the earth must have cornfields where the grain for our physical sustenance ripens, so must the souls of the dead have cornfields from which they can gather certain sustenance which they need during the time between death and a new birth.

As the eye of clairvoyance follows the souls of the dead, the souls of sleeping human beings are seen to be cornfields for the dead. For one who has this experience in the spiritual world for the first time, it is not only surprising but deeply shattering to see how the souls living between death and a new birth hasten as it were to the souls of sleeping human beings, seeking for the thoughts and ideas which are in those souls; for these thoughts are food for the souls of the dead and they need this nourishment.

If throughout the day we are engrossed in thoughts connected with material life, if our mind is directed only to what is going on in the physical world and can be  achieved there, if we have given no single thought to the spiritual worlds before passing into sleep but often bring ourselves into those worlds by means quite  different from thoughts, then we have no nourishment to offer to the dead.

In order that this may be rightly understood, it must be stated that nourishment after death can be drawn only from the ideas and thoughts of those with whom  there was some connection during life; nourishment cannot be drawn from those with whom there was no connection at all.

That is what is meant by reading to the dead. It is not always essential to have a book, but you must not think abstractly and you must think each thought to the  end. In this way you are able to read to the dead.

A question often raised in connection with this is: `How can one be sure that the soul of the dead person is able to listen?' Admittedly, without clairvoyance it is  difficult to be sure of this, although one who steeps himself in thoughts of the dead will in time be surprised by a feeling that the dead person is actually listening. 
This feeling will be absent only if he is inattentive and fails to notice the peculiar warmth that often arises during the reading. When a human being is living in the spiritual world between death and a new birth, he directs his longing to our physical world somewhat as a physical human being directs his longing to the spiritual world. A man between death and a new birth expects from men on the earth that they will show and radiate up to him knowledge that can be acquired only on the earth. The earth has not been established without purpose in spiritual world-existence; the earth has been summoned to life in order that there may come into being that which is possible nowhere else. Knowledge of the spiritual worlds — which means more than vision, more than a mere onlooking — can arise only on the earth.

Again any further comments are welcome.

PUL
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #71 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 5:55am
 
I'm sorry, Aug..nothing in that post of that man rings "right" with me.

I get an impression of a man who actually feared death, and looked at the soul/spirits of those crossed over as some sort of vampire, suckling off the thoughts of the physically living.

He also seems to proclaim that one must be clairvoyant to contact the dead, and experience here on this site has shown that to be false. 

What I have read of this man, says that he was a racist..that white man is at the top of the evolutionary chain and black man at the very bottom.  I have a hard time taking someone serious with that world view.

As to reading in the spirit world..I agree with Mairlyn..there are great libraries there, where spirits study.  Spirits need nothing from us physicals..I personally think he's got it backwards..he seems to be saying that knowledge is not available there and physical is the end all, be all..

Also, as to contacting those to whom you've had no connection here with..again, just not true. Retrievals are evidence of that.
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #72 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 6:25am
 
Steiner wasn't racist.  I find that statement to be quite hilarious!

Shirley, it really makes no difference to me what you believe. When someone asks me a question I answer it.

Retrivals to me are chasing shadows of ghost in the sublunar world- hey but if thats what you are into enjoy it!

Peace and love.
Caryn



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black_panther
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #73 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 7:15am
 
Augo

Thanks for your explanation on Rudolf Steiner.

One thing is for sure - we all come to this board with our own "truths".  And hopefully we are all able to co-exist here with wide and varied views.

Quote:
Retrivals to me are chasing shadows of ghost in the sublunar world- hey but if thats what you are into enjoy it!


I do however question your views on retrievals.  Isn't the major part of Bruce's work - teaching people to do retrievals?  A lot of us came to this forum to learn the art of retrieving.  TMI is another "mecca" for people like us who want to learn about retrieving.  To me that is an invaluable service that physicals can offer to those who have crossed over.  I have done retrievals and can assure you that I was definitely not "chasing shadows of ghosts in the sublunar world" (wherever that may be!!)

Irene

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"Trusting that our lives are divinely guided gives us the courage to surrender our will and have faith that all is happening as it should"&&&&Cheryl Richardson
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Rob_Roy
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Re: Evil spirits, demons, negative entities..
Reply #74 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 10:40am
 
Augo,

I'm not as diplomatic as my twin soul Irene (Black Panther) is, nor am I often as gentle as my cosmic family member Mairyln is, so forgive me my faults in advance so I may still reach you depite them.

There is a HUGE difference between believing (as you do) and knowing from direct personal experience as Irene and Mair do, not to mention Bruce and others on this board. Direct personal experience is the point of going to TMI and doing other things to learn retrievals and afterlife exploration generally. One simply cannot rest alone on what is written or said by others, even when such appears to have great credibility and widespread acceptance, such as the Bible and the teachings of Rodulf Steiner. This would even include Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe. We must see and experience for ourselves in order to cross that line between believing and knowing. This includes the necessity for validation, at least at first. This validation comes from the experience as well as the consistancy of the collective experience of others who choose to know and not just believe. So there lies the proof: direct personal experience and validation. Without these you don't know.

You, my dear friend, are a believer. You are arguing with and dismissing those who KNOW.

Love,
Rob

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