Recently I've been thinking that reincarnation doesn't exist in the manner people tend to believe. Here are some of the reasons.

The other day I was reading Bruce Moen's first book "Voyages into the unknown." I read about when he retrieved Joshua. Bruce had sarcoidosis of the liver at the time. When he retrieved Joshua he found that Joshua had been killed with a spear in the same bodily location as where his liver disease was located. Bruce helped bring Joshua to a healing center at focus 27 so Joshua could be healed. Bruce's physical problem went way.

Bruce spoke as if Joshua was a prior self. When considered from the traditional reincarnation viewpoint, it's hard to understand how Bruce could've taken on Joshua's injury if Joshua had the injury cured before he returned to his disc and prepared for the incarnation of Bruce. It makes much more sense that Bruce's disc created a new probe based not only on Joshua's traits, but also on other disc personality traits according to need. In his third book Bruce wrote that he was told that he's a retriever curl. Therefore his incarnation was created with some retriever traits. Traits that Joshua didn't have. My guess is that Joshua is still hanging around Bruce's disc along with Robert Monroe and others. I also guess that Robert Monroe isn't going to be incarnating again anytime soon, even though his disc might launch another probe.

This chain of thought can be carried over to other occasions when people have injuries that relate to a past life. If the incarnation for which an injury first appeared had gotten to the point to where it was able to make arrangements for another incarnation to take place, it only seems logical that an injury would have been taken care of before another incarnation took place, if reincarnation happens in the manner commonly believed. Perhaps injuries are carried over in order to provide a clue as to how reincarnation really works. When it comes to past life memories, a person might be experiencing memories from other parts of his or her disc.

On page 166 of Far Journeys, Robert Monroe shares something which also suggests a possibility other than the traditional reincarnation viewpoint. Robert asked his I-there/disc, "How far does this go back?" He received the answer: "Before you were born." He said "You had better tell me. I don't remember."  He was told, "You wouldn't. You didn't exist. We made the decision to become human again. We selected the time and place and organized the DNA mix—elements from the physical and elements from us. We took those parts of us that seemed most appropriate, rolled them up into one, and sent them in. There you—and we—were!"

Even Michael Newton's books suggest the above if you consider the meaning of multiple incarnations. Part of a soul stays behind in the spirit World, while two parts of the same soul incarnate. What happens when these two incarnations return to the spirit World? Does their soul say "thank you for the hard work, but it is time for me to disassemble and reintegrate your personalities according to need."? Or does each incarnation return to the "disc" that created them, and are loved in the same manner that a loving parent loves a child?

I've asked my guidance about this and If I'm interpreting the messages I've received correctly, reincarnation doesn't happen in the manner commonly believed. One message I received with symbolic visual messages (translated into words): "does it make sense that the experience of hundreds of incarnations can be stuffed into one body based mind?" I don't believe so. Perhaps a few aspects, but then I'm inclined to think of the aspects left behind in a disc sense. So I'm back to the brand new probe thing.

Also, if reincarnation happens in the manner commonly thought, partly because we are slow to evolve and let go of our unwanted personality traits, then what in tarnation would behoove us to let go of them when we reincarnate? One might argue that our basic personality traits are carried over, but aren't our traits the result of the memories we accumulated during our life? It might not be possible to separate specific memories from our personality traits. They are too interwoven.

Certainly there are some advantages of not having reincarnation work in the manner commonly believed. For one thing, life is a wonderful thing once you get to the spirit World. The more souls that get to enjoy the party the better. Certainly you get more souls if each spirit that incarnates in the physical results in a brand new soul.

Plus, life can be quite tough down here at times. Why require a soul to experience the physical World hundreds of times when they can continue to learn while experiencing the happiness of the spirit World? Especially since communication isn't as limited in the spirit World as it is here. When you think of things from a disc viewpoint, each disc member can continue to learn about physical life from fellow disc members that are currently incarnated in the physical. After all, isn't that what a disc does.

Also consider what people experience during near death experiences. They find that the heaviness of being physical drops away. They find out about the spirit beings they truly are. They find that love and happiness are much more present than they are in the physical. They find that there is no longer anything to be concerned about and resultantly experience great peace. They have a life review, learn about the mistakes they made during their life, and get closure in a manner that numerous psychotherapy sessions would have a hard time matching. Or other words, they obtain what physical people try to obtain while trying to get enlightened.

So why do we physically incarnate at all? Because it represents one way to create our initial identity, and because it enables God and us to find out what's possible with the infinite creative potential that God's being contains.

Another way to think of this, when it comes to what the World requires and what individual growth needs would require when you consider things from the traditional reincarnation viewpoint, a lot of contradictory needs would have to be met. It is hard to see how such contradictory needs could be worked out. Especially since we tend to move away from the big game plan while we are here.

Hi recoverer, thank you for posting your considerations!

>>>Perhaps injuries are carried over in order to provide a clue as to how reincarnation really works. When it comes to past life memories, a person might be experiencing memories from other parts of his or her disc.<<<
It is also thinkable that past incarnations of one's higher self simply have such a strong influence/connection on/with the physical incarnated one that it comes to such things as "bleed throughs" of other incarnations, memories or bodily occurances, these effects on the incarnated one maybe are even stronger when an incarnation, or an aspect of it, is stuck on the way back to the higher self.

I had received this information in meditation that persons are a compound of parts, these parts can separate again, or they can stay together. But they can't separate totally, they will always be bound together by their disc. This struggling or loving, separating or melting parts seems to be a way of evolution. Parts bound together to a higher being seems to be a repeating pattern on different levels (for example the disc is a part of a second-level disc etc.). (Some retrievals I had recently seem to point to this "parts" or "aspects" structure of souls) I then asked if and how this fits with the traditional reincarnation theory; "both is true in a way" was the answer, to me it means the whole thing is not understandable to me as earthling now, and this "both" is a way to come closest to the real thing. Possibly it's meant the traditional reincarnation theory is true in the meaning that other incarnations of my disk are really "me"-because of the same disk, and when I'm complaining about the bad connection to my helpers/disk members there immediately is this thought that I'm never separated, and that I am the disk and the disk is me- (with the known earthly limits of awareness).

>>>It might not be possible to separate specific memories from our personality traits. They are too interwoven.<<<
It is at least thinkable that specific memories are for some reason not as good to implement in an incarnated human as the resulting personality traits. But the other consideration you wrote about, that it sounds unlikely to pack all these memories of hundreds of past lifes in one person, would also applicatable to traits.

>>>Why require a soul to experience the physical World hundreds of times when they can continue to learn while experiencing the happiness of the spirit World?<<<
What I am uncertain of, in which way a person who had left the physical is dwelling in the afterlife; I'm wondering about the degree how much this person would remain this single person like been in the physical, or if a person then would not melt with the higher self, or at least with some members of it, and what we perceive of the people who had passed over is a projection of this higher self, recreating this person to communicate with those still on earth; this doesnt mean it's a sort of illusion, because this person in a way does actually exist, but as in-melted part of the higher self.

>>>So why do we physically incarnate at all?<<<
That's still one of the hardest questions! It is, following the pieces I've gathered about this, a thing of self-exploration under extreme conditions, a sensitivation according some energies/emotions and its concentration and control, and also there is this helping aspect, as if every incarnating soul is also a rescuer and a messenger, to keep all this decaying and confused things&souls on earth connected with the other awareness levels.

Spooky

Excuse me for jumping into this thread; I am working the graveyard shift so I have much time to ponder these questions. I have brought up a similiar question in another thread ( I beleive) titled "Contacting loved ones who've been riencarnated."I found a website that may shed some  insight into my/our question.

http://www.astraltraveler.com/reincarnation.html)

The website stated:

"Reincarnation is an Evolvement of Awareness which gives the entity the ability of infinite time regression. The awareness of time  is an evolvement of experiences that we have. There are no winners or losers as all paths merge in creating a larger one. It's the process where no Being is a Hero but an Entity of an Ancient Vision. When a Being reaches a level of infinite time regression, then progression is inevitable. Esoteric scholars refer to this as levels or worlds - astral planes.Through my experiences of various types of astral projections, I realized that interdimensional projections  are realized by a Thought, and that through the projection the astral body can instantly reach another reality as real as our present. Our present Life is a reality, and every lifetime is a reality with a different mission to be accomplished. Reincarnation results in "death," which in other terms is the permanent projection of the astral body to a different level of awareness common to all.  "

I translated this as meaning we can coexist (at the same time) in another dimension (keeping our entire identity intact). This could be why they say time doesn't exist, becuase it has allready happened, yet it hasn't happened because it is happening now. ( That makes sense to me, hope it does for you  ). Both  points coexist in the same space and time but on a different vibration or dimension.   

I also wonder Spooky2  if when one has reincarned if we can still contact them via higher consciousness. the higher consciousness retrieving that aspect of themselves for our benifit, as that is how we best remember them (in their last incarnation).

Baby_duck.

I am confused!

reincarnation is a complicated and exhaustive topic with many different views. Which one to beleive, I don't know?  I will keep an open mind.

Here is another take on the subject:

"In its existence prior to becoming an indweller in the mortal body, the soul has a consciousness of its existence, and of its relationship to God and to other parts of the Great Soul, and more especially, of the duplex character of its being; and by this I mean the sexual differences in the two parts of the soul, which in the way that they are united, constitute the one complete soul.

Separation is necessary for the individualization of each part of this one complete soul, yet the two parts never lose that interrelationship, or the binding qualities that existed before their separation, and which continue to exist thereafter. And in the great future, after the work of individualization shall be completed, the two parts will come together again and reunite in a complete one

And we further understand, and such is the result of our observation, that when the soul - and keep in mind that I mean the two parts when I say soul - once becomes incarnated and assumes an individualized form, it never thereafter loses that individuality. Hence, it never again returns to its condition of preexistence, and can never again become reincarnated in the existence of any human being.

There is no such thing as reincarnation. All the theories and speculations of men upon that question, which conclude that a soul once incarnated can again become incarnated, are wrong. For the incarnation of a soul is only one step in its destined progress from an invisible, formless existence to a glorious angel, or to a perfected spirit. In this progress, a soul never retraces its steps. It is always progressing, though sometimes stagnation takes place. But it continues as an individualized spirit until it reaches its goal in fulfillment of the Father's Plan for the perfecting of His Universe. " (www.angelicmessages.org).

I think this theory makes reference to the twinflame theory.
I like to look at different angles on the same subject. Don't mean to confuse things, this new source of info made me think and challenges other theories. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle?

Baby_Duck

Caryn:

Regarding the below, I get the impression that incarnations are created from the standpoint of a higher self/disc/oversoul, not from the standpoint of just one of a higher selves incarnations.


augoeideian wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2006 at 7:05am:

Alysia:

Certainly it is up to each person to decide for his or herself about reincarnation. (I wonder if individual sheep have to reincarnate over and over again, or if it's more of a disc thing. .

Regarding what Ruth Montgomery wrote about a green World, I read a near death experience recently, and it stated that in the future when mankind becomes more evolved, it will move away from all this technical stuff (Don't take away the internet please! ) and move back to a more natural way of living. I don't know if this is true.

Hi Recoverer I hope in my heart i do not have to riencarnate anymore,as given a choice i dont want to,but if i have to, i will be able to reincarnate with my twin deanna,as the medium told us we do not have to live another life without each other,so that makes me feel better about reincarnation,because deanna will be with me.but i really would like me and deanna to be in the spirit world for years before ,we had to reincarnate.
Love and God bless you Juditha

Juditha:

I hope in my heart that we don't have to reincarnate anymore, that way spirits don't have to experience the harshness of the physical World over and over and over again, before they can finally abide in the glory of the spirit World for the rest of eternity.

Here's another way to think of it.  A person lives a tough life in the physical World. After dying the spirit of this person ends up earthbound for a while. Eventually this spirit crosses over but ends up in a hell like realm for a while. Eventually, after who knows how long, this spirit becomes tired of the hell like realm, decides to fess up to the mistakes it made, resolves its issues, and then rejoins its home in the spirit World. What happens then? It's told: "Nice job. You finally made it here. You ready to reincarnate so you can do it all over again?"





Quote:

I do think that reincarnation is true.Why.because when my daughter was 3 years old,we were driving along a road.we were stuck intravic,this old lady was walking along on the sidewalk.When out of the blue,My daughter said,mummy do you see the lady walking near our can,My wife yes.My daughter said she was my mother one time.Also I knew a man whos daughter died about 35 years ago of cancer.She was only 23.Her name was beverly.Over the Years,beverly used to come to my mind.I asked my wife what she thought of this.Than one night,I was asleep,and I heard a male voice say beverly.I said what about her.Than I saw a profile of a young girl I know,whos name is melissa.When I talked to melissa about beverly.She told me when she was 23,it was the worst year of her life.doctors could ran tests,but could find nothing that was causing her pain.After that year,she told me she was fine.Beverly body is in a cemmtory in our town.Thats why I believe in reincarnation.Love George

Reincarnation is an interesting topic, not accepted by most Judeo-Christian Theologians but accepted more readily by those in Eastern faiths. 

The answer might be more in the middle.  SOME may reincarnate, but not necessarily everyone.  This is actually speculated on my some Christian theologians as well, though certainly in the minority (I believe Thomas Aquinas was one such).   

As I believe nothing is impossible for the Creator, I believe that it is possible for someone to be granted reincarnation for some purpose, but I do not believe that every single person is made to do so. 

Like Juditha, I'm not too keen about coming back over and over again.  I'd rather become an angel and help out from the spirit side....

NeverSayDie said: I do think we need to be careful when applying fixed and unalterable rules to these things. Since the reality of the spirit world is one that is projected from our own minds and in interaction with others, we are dealing with many possibilities. It all depends on each souls unique situation. Because while we are part of a oneness that is god, we also have our individual spiritual paths.
__

very astute comment. my opinion from intuition and from reading much on the subject is that the overview is incredible from the other side. we see much more possibilities and game plans, etc. when on this level of communion you might call it. communion with beings who have had more or different experiences than ourselves. they do make recommendations for this or that experience to gain, however coercement is an unknown over there and the choice remains in he who has the vision and the will. yet if reincarnation is a non/linear happenstance you can see why Recoverer is getting away from the traditional reincarnation concept and so am I trying to grasp how it works for the common man or woman, although I wholeheartedly agree that exceptions exist for every rule and if it did not, this would be a boring type prison planet which it is not boring, nor a prison for me, yet I understand some will say this and feel it as they meet their challenges.
if u subscribe to "we are all one" then its easier to deal with the thought that there are many of me. I just haven't met them all yet. then if u take it further, all the ones who are one with me are living a life of their own perhaps in 1810 or maybe I'm a caveman somewhere learning how to make fire.
while we're here we deal with a repeat performance of the rising sun which governs our clocks. its one day at a time sweet Jesus. we have no language for what is eternity and cannot be measured. we may get a new language someday..which will allow us to communicate what has never been said before.
by that time, maybe we'll all have hydrogen powered cars and even little spaceships which drive themselves..see, no matter what I must resort to linear time. I do believe though, that the future dimensions are already up and running. and we will do time travels through our minds.
anybody want to come back to a future like that?    I might, don't know, nobody's asked me yet! I'd want to be with loved ones or I wouldn't want to come back.

I do subscribe to our oneness but didn't always. retrievals caused me to merge into those I retrieved, sensing our oneness. I have a little story about meeting what Iwant to call a disc member, but for the moment he was my other half, a male half. one day my whole family was running amuck; nobody took responsibility for anything happening and self disapline was certainly not operating. my suggestions how to improve our chances of surviving all in the same house were not taken kindly and so I began to think maybe they were right. I began to think my family were all like children who would not listen to me. I set an intention to see if something was missing inside of me and if I could change myself, not them, perhaps that would be the answer? a wonderful obe situation developed from this thought. it demonstrated the oneness concept me.
I knew guidance was there, although invisible I received instructions. I found myself in someone's house. in the hallway. a full length mirror appeared. a gentle voice said stare into the mirror. I looked and did not see my reflection as I expected. instead a man walked nonchalantly towards me. I felt something intensely familiar about him and knew he loved me as he loved himself.  I knew positively we were one. I also knew my despondancy and despair had brought me to him. he smiled as he strode up. Hi, I said, I'm feeling down, can u help? I asked. nobody listens to me, I don't think they love me. my other half led me to a table and we chatted about our unique style of child rearing, why it worked. we talked a long while it seemed and he convinced me I had not failed my family in my expression to them, that they had needed me, as the opposite viewpoint is always needed to learn by. came back to the body and knew everything I had said or done was how it was supposed to have been said and done. they did love me, they just had not learned to express that love yet.
I got the feeling, but not absolutely sure, this other half, this man is alive physically and it wasn't romantic, unless u can concieve of making love with yourself! ha ha!
and I did get the feeling that this was like a gift meeting, and it was because I needed his input right then. I didn't know I'd missed him until I saw him. it was that kind of surprise reunion meeting. like, omygod, it's you! I know you!

so we forget whom we've known. we forget we are one.  for a reason because we want to live here, or we did at one time and when all is well, we want to live here.   

-Truly disturbing implications here...

I hope in my heart that we don't have to reincarnate anymore, that way spirits don't have to experience the harshness of the physical World over and over and over again, before they can finally abide in the glory of the spirit World for the rest of eternity.
******************
-The physical world is only harsh, to the extent that you are poorly
constructed mentally and physically. For normally healthy people
(in free societies!) it's a BLAST! I know this, because even though
my "kit and caboodle" isn't ideal, it's had its good times nonetheless.
I only regret that I couldn't have had it the way an IDEALLY CONSTRUCTED MAN has it. I'll regret it forever, if I don't get that
experience. Also...
How do you know the "spirit world" is glorious? What if the ancients were
right - you just stumble dazedly through a cold, grey wasteland for the rest of eternity? - i.e. Sheol (Hebrews), Hades (Greeks) Hel (Norse), Nergal (Sumerians), Mictlan (Aztecs.)
I'd rather reincarnate than endure THAT outcome! (How about you?)
__________________

Here's another way to think of it.  A person lives a tough life in the physical World. After dying the spirit of this person ends up earthbound for a while. Eventually this spirit crosses over but ends up in a hell like realm for a while. Eventually, after who knows how long, this spirit becomes tired of the hell like realm, decides to fess up to the mistakes it made, resolves its issues, and then rejoins its home in the spirit World. What happens then? It's told: "Nice job. You finally made it here. You ready to reincarnate so you can do it all over again?
*****************
-Sounds COOL to me! A second chance at being:
-Rich! (I can't over-emphasize this one.) Or at least AMBITIOUS
enough to get rich if I want. (As it is, I have some serious motivational
and work-inertia problems.)
-Physical and Mental perfection...
-A super-athlete...
-A super-stud with the ladies...
-A Bad-Ass who NOBODY gets dares mess with...
And last but not least, 20/20 VISION (and not the f***ed
nearsightness I've lived with (and thoroughly detested)
since I was 10 years old. I'm looking at Lasik again, now
that the results have become more reliable, I might try it.
But I'm 37 y/o, and the good part of my life is over. So
I NEED a second chance.)
I might be done with C1 (maybe) after I have a SUCCESSFUL life in C1.
But if there's no reincarnation, I seriously risk going out a LOSER
and staying that same loser, FOREVER. (Unless cryonics works, and I
plan on buying a contract in the not-too-distant future in any case...)
Maybe we don't all get the same thing, but what we WANT! That'd be cool. You can stay in the "afterlife", and I'll keep on comning back here. (I wonder if Universal Reality is a democracy? Now THAT I might be able to get behind, as they say...)

B-man

Chumley:

Certainly spirits can continue to learn, grow and change when they move on to the spirit World. I would hardly call heaven a stagnant place. If someday you find heaven to be a boring and unpleasant place, perhaps they'll make an exception for you. They just don't sit on clouds all day you know.

Newbie 38:

Relating to the below, I received two visual messages from my guidance while meditating one day. I was meditating with the intent of finding out how reincarnation works. First I was shown a man who was pulling really hard on a rope that was attached to a huge tent that was enclosed within a smaller tent. I didn't quite understand what this meant.

A little later on I shown a large tent like room (hard to describe) that was occupied by many people who represented various parts of oneself. Suddenly a man popped/walked out of this room of selfs as just oneself.  The other selves that were within the room remained there and continued with their activities.

The first vision gave me the feeling that no way will an incarnating self represent a soul's entire self, because there would be too much experience and knowledge to bring into a new incarnation.

The second vision gave me the feeling that no way are previous selfs/incarnations stored away as nothing more than mere memories, because each of these selves are considered to be too important.

Later that night, after I went to sleep, I woke up in the middle of a night and heard an inner voice say, "every form counts."  With this message came the feeling that every self that is created is considered to be too precious to be treated as nothing more than a computer program that gets reorganized and restored according to need.

Therefore, I get what you're saying below.

newbie38 wrote on Oct 4^th, 2006 at 4:21pm:

Dear newbie 38:


I had once asked to come into contact with my guides (which I rarely do ). One guide stands out in particular. She is gentle, with an accent (maybe british?) and she is almost like Mary Poppins ( a little bit proper). Anyhow, I had asked my guides a similiar question as the question you had posed:  "Thinking of reincarnation in this kind of context, if we are required to accept amnesia before returning, aren't we starting over from scratch every time?"  I had asked my guides why I didn't remember anything (out of frustration) and what was the point in that? Shortly afterwards, for the first time I received an awnser from a distinct voice that surely was not mine (for once!). The voice said "What kind of a test would it be if you knew all of the awnsers?" (said in british accent). So simple yet true, how could I argue?

I beleive that each time we reincarnate our soul wisens up abit, so that even if we do experience amnesia, we are still likely to make better choices the next time around due to a (hopefully) more evolved soul. If we didn't learn much in the incarnation prior to the following, then we run the risk of repeating lessons (but even that is not set in stone).

Take care............Baby_Duck

hi Dave. I think we come to a point where we notice everything physical here is corruptible, subjected to change with time. as I got older (I'm 59) I felt younger inside due to spiritual studies and meditation and all of that, but the body didn't move as fast as it used to, so we have to slow down when we are no longer spring chickens and we notice things that used to stand up get pulled down instead.  none of us have perfection of body and I certainly realized the models on the magazine? they touch them up and make them look perfect; you should see them in the morning before coffee; lol.  my guides said focus on whats good on you, maybe its not your skin, but maybe you have a goodlooking nose, or long fingers to play the piano with, or excellent hips that don't need replacing; theres so many positive things to looks at.
and then a good friend who is 64 took up roller blading   our friends can influence us to think younger as I asked myself, well, why not? although I wouldn't take up roller blading myself, I totally support strange older folks who roller blade as age appears to be nothing more than a belief system. even the idea I have that I should slow down when I get older, thats most likely a belief system which is limiting me.
I'll have to study it some more to make sure.

Dave, when you high tail it out of here, will you miss your body? this body served me pretty well, but I don't think I'll attend my own funeral as I don't want a funeral anyway. Gordon's book, Eternity, How To Enjoy it, tells of disembodied spirits coming to look upon what has been cast off, fascinated with that mass. it is interesting I must say but the body is not our intrinsic self. I can't wait to get on the other side and change my hair color everyday without having to go to the store for the hair dye!  ok, not a spiritual goal, but who said all goals had to be spiritual?

Hi Alysia-
Heck yes I'll miss my body. It's been a remarkably reliable vehicle, and in spite of all the crap I've put it through, it has kept on going, has repaired itself really quite well, and in general has been more faithful to me than I to it. But then, I'd miss my car if it fell off in the middle of the freeway.
dave

hmmm, doesn't an acorn turn into an oak tree, strong and straight and lasting perhaps centuries, one of the most preferred and beautiful woods that we enjoy?
I wouldn't mind being a tree in that case

Juditha! u got your picture up! yaaaahaaayaa!!!!! and most lovely you are. was I any help at all? I do like this picture better than the other one.

Hi alysia thankyou and you are lovely too,and i agree with you i like this picture a lot better than the other one,i have thrown the other picture away,not a good one at all so i wont miss it.
You did help and bruce helped me as well.
Love and God bless you aylsia Juditha.

Hi, Recoverer
You forgot that time doesn't exist there.... future and past are only a concept of our physical brain.
Claudio

I will be cremated upon leaving this physical world. Why take up space in the ground and I will not miss my body. It's only a vehicle for my soul and I'm not attached to it. I look forward to the day I'm in the afterlife.

Namaste, Mairlyn

(I originally posted this under the other reincarnation thread by Juditha, but I feel it is more suitable under this generalized thread on reincarnation.)

I believe that I have raised this question in a previous post, but I may need a little bit of a  refresher: 

Where does our initial karma stem from? For example, if we are in this Earth Life System until we have satisfied our desire to be here and have balanced out our karmic debts, then where does the first karmic debt stem from if we start out "without" karmic debt? Furthermore, do we decide what karmic debt we will take on before starting out on our first adventure into this Earth Life System? 

From what I gather it logically has to be the case that we start out with a karmic debt that we choose to work off through various physical incarnations -- a sort of fabricated/staged/illusory karmic debt. For instance, beings we all start out our existences as  pure/clean/untainted sparks of energy/curiosity venturing forth into reality/the unknown; (no karmic debts to speak of); now we enter into the Earth as pure innocent beings with no past incarnations from which karmic debt can be balanced/released. Henceforth, due to the fact that at this stage we have nothing to work off "karmically" does it then follow that we must have chosen staged karmic debts to work off prior to our first incarnations? For if not, we would have nothing to work out/balance out. 

If it were the case (and I don't see how it couldn't be) that our initial karmic debts are staged prior to our first physical incarnations, then it would mean that karma itself stems from staged illusions... which follows that all aspects of karma are therefore structured illusions. So, how could the illusion of karma dictate an inevitable reincarnation? Logically speaking, the deciding factor of reincarnation must always be of the free-will choice of the "incarnee".

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Claudio:

I considered the time factor. Here's a possible chain of events.

1. Bruce Moen incarnates and has a liver problem.
2. He retrieves Joshua.
3. Joshua gets healed and Bruce's liver problem goes away.
4. Joshua returns to his disc, has a life review, that sort of thing.
5. Joshua decides it is time to incarnate again and decides to incarnate as Bruce. He will bring his liver injury with him. But hey-wait a minute, didn't he have that injury healed shortly after Bruce retrieved him and before he returned to his disc? Why would he carry it over?

It is possible that Bruce had a liver problem because an earthbound disc member (Joshua) who had a natural energetic connection to him was experiencing the memory of an injury incurred at the time of his death. 


Claudio Pisani wrote on Oct 7^th, 2006 at 8:38am:

another perspective offered:

1) Joshua and Bruce are the same person but different focused lives of the same disc

2) they both incarnate at the same time, but one comes in at 1940 and one comes in at 1926.(just made up some date for example)

3) Bruce develops a liver problem that Joshua has also

4) this liver problem links them together and they both desire a healing.

5) Bruce learns the art of retrieval and slips back in time to retrieve Joshua and discovers they are the same, as one, like a split personality, but deeper than that. they are the same soul, but decided to have two bodies, two lives, two time periods to experience. for the probe to gather different experiences.
the liver problem would have been set up that way to offer a challenge and to heal himself by the art of retrieval, which in turn, Bruce came here to teach the art of retrieval of selves through the books.

love, alysia