LightR_on wrote on Sep 28^th, 2006 at 7:09am:


in response to LightR and others,

I agree with you fully that there is a struggle going on, and in order for good and virtue to have any degree of value, there must be an element of justice and consequence.  Whether you describe it as judging yourself, or God judging you, either way you are facing responsibility for the consequences of your actions.   I do not think that we, as individuals, take things into our own hands to settle "accounts" with those who wronged us or hurt us in this life.  The people who did evil must face that reality of evil action when they proceed over....whether this is a private hell as described in Bruce's book or being turned over to the jailer until the last farthing is paid, as in a Christian perspective.   However, note that the true Greek word in the Bible when referring to souls being sent to hell is "eons" which is a temporary time, and also that being turned over to the jailer until the last farthing is paid also connotates a hell that is not permanent.  In some of these areas, the Christian perspective matches what Bruce has observed, in a soul having to work up through something before being able to reach the Elysian Fields, so to speak. 

With all due respect, though, I cannot believe in any way that someone "contracts" to be a child molester, rapist, etc. prior to their life in this world.  When a person is doing such things, I believe they are moving far, far off track from what they were intended to be and unrestrained free will allows them to do such dark actions...but it would be awful if such evil was premeditated, and is completely alien to the nature of God as I have experienced God.  The look in the eye of a premeditated, violent person has nothing akin to the light of God, and is more in league with the war that LightR has spoken of (as is the look in the eye of the man in the corporate boardroom whose decisions that are motivated only by financial interests spawn untold suffering on the communities gutted when thousands of jobs are offshored)

Forgive 7 X 70.

I really like what Juditha posted. It says a lot.

Life is set up in the physical so that there are bound to be people who do negative things. The fact of how there are many people who do negative things shows that this is the case. I'm grateful that I get to experience a lifetime that doesn't include such negativity, and consider it a joyful time when souls who experience such negativity find their way out of their confusion.

If satan exists like some people believe, then why doesn't God,  Jesus and God's angels come kick their buts now, so they'll stop messing with God's children? Isn't life tough enough in the physical without allowing somebody such as satan to intefere. Especially since we already have our egotistical nature to contend with.

Considering that a lot of effort is put in by light beings who help spirits find their way out of dark places and dark states of mind, it is hard to believe that God and his helpers would just sit on their hands and allow a being such as satan to continue to do what he supposedly does.

I do believe that it is possible that there are some negative minded earth bound spirits who mess with people if people allow them to do so. They aren't forced to move on because they aren't seen as beings who are inately evil, but rather as confused beings who are inately divine. Plus, they don't have as much power as the satan idea suggests. If people give in to them, it may be that they already have something in common. They share a similar confused state of mind.  For instance, an earthbound spirit who used to be a drug addict and connects energetically to a person who is a drug addict. Or a mean and hateful earthbound spirit who attaches energetically to a mean and hateful person.

There could also be negative energetic fields that are created by people, and the energy of such a field gets attracted to a person who creates energy of the same wavelength.

Augoeideian,

I'm not stating that the True Light is entirely illuminating the physical, seen from within. I'm aware of many evils here, sometimes I wish I was not. But this does for me not implicate a dark force, and/or the devil. I see it as a lack of awareness. I find dualistic spiritual beliefs not convincing, for me this doesn't fit together with creation in itself. Of course we have good and bad, everyone "knows" what's good or bad, but to make spiritual, and quasi-personalized forces out of it that makes no sense to me.

>>>So it has nothing to do with 'guilt' it has everything to do with discipline and knowing the way the devil works.  And consciously working with Christ to elimante the manipulation that this traitor brings.<<<
I am completely different opinion, if you interprete that way the bible, and especially the New Testamentum. This way of interpreting sets people in fear, whether they are on the right side or not, urge them to believe the "right belief" and make them even more feeling guilty. How much more is gained if we focus on that everyone is unique and uniquely appreciated by God, and forgiven the sins. Everybody is a sinner isn't it? You know, throw that first stone? And, what about the prodigal son? That's the things I like in the bible. And isn't the telling about the healing from the demons not mainly a lecture about demonology but much more a telling about a healing by caringly approaching another person in the right way? The point is appreciation, of oneself, and others, not asking for elimination of "manipulations" that the "devil" brings. This being free, rid of, the heavyness of evil and the related concerns is to me something that belongs to the afterlife- yet, excluded some very wise illuminated insightful persons who might have found the Garden Eden right here in the physical already.

The devil is not living in the astral. There are many people having fun or having hell, similar like here, but with much more degrees of personal freedom. There are common traits, there are leaders, but there is no authority of evil that has given might- as long as one not wants it.

Again, I'm not saying there is no evil, but the way to remove it for me seems to be not the one to divide the world into the devil-followers and the God-followers.

Spooky

"The universe conspires for retribution" ...?
Well, it sure seems that way when I stub my toe and get upset and drop and break something else etc. With only a tiny bit of effort I can create a really horrific soap opera, and then I can get all tangled up in the blame game. 

I think Caryn has a point, that "The Devil lives in th astral"  - and the problem is to figure out just what that means. Since everything is God, including the Devil (fallen angels are still manifestations of God) that suggests to me that in the (lower) astral, just as in the everyday world, we are likely to encounter opposition of some kind.  But not just in the astral. If we look at the present world we can find many regions in which there are people with one attitude who are being set upon by people with other attitudes, and both sides are firmly convinced that they, and they alone, are right. Thus, the Inquisiution was an effort by holy men to help everyone to be holy and to find the way. Of course the free thinkers, Jews and others who were imprisoned (or worse) were also good and holy people who wanted everyone to be holy etc in spite of interference by the Inquisition. The Protestant Reformation was an example of a good and holy person deviating from the ways of other good and holy people, with each calling the other unpleasant names.

So long as we realize that there is only God, multifaceted and manifested in innumerable ways, then all this "good versus evil" stuff is clearly a matter of where we stand when we look. A suicide bomber is a holy martyr, and the innoent people killed are equally holy martyrs. (Just ask them!) So we have to climb down from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" and start looking at life in terms of what works best, and what activities seem to have flaws that we might repair.

In a very practical sense, if we attack spirits with the idea of right and wrong, we can get into some remarkably powerful arguments, citing the forces of light and darkness in opposition - yet dark is only the relative absence of light, and when we figure it all out, the light is God. In a sense, all the hassles of the world arise from God's efforts to evolve a collection of replicates of Its own Nature. This has to be evolution, as opposed to point blank creation, because it has to be valid in and of itself, and thus rooted in the ability to arise out of the primal nothingness. That which is created relies upon its Creator. That which arises immanently from voidness, even though it may presently be existing within a created vehicle, shares the Divine. Accordingly, when we deal with "stuck demonic spirits", it's a lot easier to remind them of their Divin nature, so that they are transformed (a la Prodigal Son) as opposed to fighting them with exorcisms and other hostile actions. Experience bears this out.

dave

I like Walsch. was just reading something today in a magazine how he said all of us can talk with god and he's gotten many many letters from people appreciating his books and confirming they too, have had similar conversations with god, what ever name they give their god.

picked something from Mair's post quote:  "In the moment that I strike you and smite you," said the Friendly Soul, " in the moment that I do the worst to you that you could ever imagine---in that self-same moment....remember Who I Really Am."

and I thought to myself, yes, this sort of activity goes on between husband and wife, or mother and daughter, etc etc etc. we do need to hold vision for one another, and why is it we hurt the one we love the most? because we need to get into balance, and loved ones are more effective at that than someone who won't take our bull dung we toss out. balance is like the scales of justice. yes there is justice and the light is justice and the light obliterates the shadows, the darkness must flee before the light.

thats not what I wanted to say..Juditha has perfect simplicity going on. forgiveness is more than u think it is and her story should have shut us all up because we come here to do that...forgive. or give as before the grievance occurred. then we are set free. I'll have to tell u a little story. I'll try to keep it short as Juditha had a much better example.
I forgave my mother once because I suddenly realized she had done nothing that was intentionlly done. she had not known I had been hurt by her in my childhood years for emotional neglect, or simply put, rejected and ignored. it caused my withdrawal into myself. this is just like when Jesus said "forgive them father, for they know <not> what they do." ok, someone will probably argue with me J never said that. so sorry if I bring it up, but <I> was the one who forgave my mother for she knew not what she had done. I had looked into her sad eyes one day as she said to me "my mother, (deceased grandmother guide/counselor)  has told me I did not treat you right..."  her soft voice faded off into some bottomless place where sorrow dwells and I had no words to say either to such a comment. I had waited an entire life to hear those words and now that they had arrived our karma was erased and there was a release that forgiveness brings...it was what I'd come here to learn, forgiveness. forgiveness prepares the soul to learn of PUL, the unconditional love which is the light.  what I saw in her eyes in that instant was she had not been aware how she had effected my withdrawn personality..for the one thing a toddler loves is it's mother and if its mother openly rejects that child, you can bet it effects your entire life.
but now with this admission, there was a balance occurring. a justice in it. a moving past the issues into clearness; she was very brave in that moment to reveal her error, that she had not loved. that was her setting me free. now, truly, I did not have to be affected by my childhood..and this is freedom for the spirit..that hurt can be put away. it is about forgiveness which prepares a way for real love to come in. forgiveness is just the first step.
I think we are here to love unconditionally, but that is the real challenge, and that the forces of darkness live in the ego itself, but by choosing the light and focusing on what we would like to see, to pray without ceasing, that is how we will set each other free. btw, I like this thread..keep talking, I didn't mean we should shut up!
the question this topic brings up will always be with us and can never be satisfactorily answered in one thread..it must be a personal question/experience then, but some very very good comments and answers and viewpoints are here and all are valid.

Dave:

Please let me clarify my point which may come across as simplistic but it is just something I have noticed from my own life experience (limited to 29 years!). It is similiar to the view point "we create our own realities".

I have met people that are very paranoid, judgemental and they blame others.They perceive the worst in people and inevetably, thats what people give them. Maybe its just luck, but I have left my door unlocked several times and I have never been robbed. I am a little naive in thinking that it probably won't happen and so far it hasn't (knock on wood).I knew of a person who would "take the last shirt off of someones' back when they weren't looking" and they were constantly living in fear of being robbed. I am quite generous with my money and love and I find I receive the same in return, tenfold. I have a girlfriend who hords her money (although she has several other lovely qualities about her). She is very cheap and she wonders why she always attracts men of the same caliber. I don't have the same experience.

I have also found that when I have had difficulties with particular people, in due time, a pattern appears. I am not the only one who is having difficulties with that person and and there is some form of retribution. Somehow and someway people get the message. Even though revenge is very tempting at times, I have found people do get what they have coming to them without me having to go out of my way to try to seek  revenge( which also harms the soul/psyche/ self of person seeking retribution and it is a waste of energy in my perspective).

Another perspective I was made aware of this evening made me shift my perception yet again. It was stated as such: "How accurate are the philosophies of man-made religions? Since man-made religions are selective and preach unworthiness, the thought of reincarnation is a form of justice. In a universal sense, justice has no real meaning because there are no laws to be broken. The belief in justice resulted in a conditional life, whose changes and evolvement are strongly rejected for the purpose of maintaining the pattern of security."http://www.astraltraveler.com/reincarnation.html)

  I also agree with what Alysia and Juditha say. It all comes down to unconditional love. Forgiveness. Try to hear the message behind the actual content of what a person says. Try to walk a mile in there shoes . The story Marilyn submitted summed it up beautifully; remember who we really are and where we came from. We are all perfect and we may have stummbled across a roadblock or became misguided in our perception due to temporary amnesia. I think you are right Dave when you say we should remind so-called evil/dark souls of what they really are."Sparks of light, creatures of god." Perfection. See others' as allready being healed. Again, this all leads back to PUL!

Baby_Duck

recoverer wrote on Sep 29^th, 2006 at 3:16pm:


This is actually one of the questions I wrestle with alot.   Looking at the revelations that have come through Marian apparitions that have been validated with signs and miracles, as well as the information that has been gleaned from numerous exorcisms, visions (such as the stunning one of Pope Leo XIII, those of St. John Bosco) and black magic practices, I would have to suggest that the dark forces are very strong.  God is certainly more powerful, as the prime creator, but as Mairlyn said, we have Free Will and God is allowing the world to come to fulfillment. 

That being said, there are Powers and Principalities, as Paul often refers to, which are hard at work knowing that they have a finite time to wreak havoc.  Remember that these powers and principalities are angels, counterparts of those that serve God.  The devil himself was once the most powerful and greatest of all the angels, to a level that he believed he could challenge God.  This is no minor being.  I also feel that the devil goes to great lengths to mask himself and lead people to think that he does not exist.   The more he manifests openly, the more he validates the existence of God and the revelations concerning God, which would certainly drive people more fully towards a Heaven-focus.  As the original egotist, he is perfectly content to nurture a non-spiritual focus within humankind that embraces humankind's own ego and a sense of "being your own god" rather than acknowledging a Creator. 

I've always felt the Devil is closer to a cold nihilism than any frothing depiction usually portrayed.