You are so right again, Alysia!  I should not open discussions about biblical topics at all.  They cause an aggravation within me that I suppose makes me come off as "biting".

My only thing is that alot of what we do discuss here is just not compatible with general Christianity.  I remember when I first started coming here..on the old board..I was told that hell was my destiny for having anything to do with it.

Since I believe that biblical hell/heaven is a falsehood..I chose to remain where ideas that resonate with my inner being abound. When the old ideas are presented..its like hearing a note off key to me..

From Plato's Timaeus:

All men who possess even a small share of good sense call upon God always at the outset of every undertaking, be it small or great: we therefore who are purposing to deliver a discourse concerning the Universe, how far it is created or is uncreated, must needs invoke gods and goddesses praying that all we say may be approved by them in the first place, and secondly by ourselves.  

And to those who seek along such a path, Plato promises that the Godhead, as Saviour, makes it possible that such a distant and difficult investigation one so prone to error can be accomplished through an enlightened philosophy.

God is not present for him in the materially comprehensible world. There He is present as nature. He lies spell-bound in nature. According to the ancient mystics, only he can approach Him who awakens the divine within himself. Therefore He cannot so easily be made comprehensible to everyone. He does not appear in person, even to those who approach Him.

But this one and only begotten world would be incomplete if it did not have among its images the image of the Creator Himself. Only out of the soul of man can this image be born. It is not the Father Himself who can be born of man, but the Son, the offspring of God living in the soul, who is like unto the Father.

Philo of whom it was said that he was Plato reborn, called the wisdom born of man, the Son of God;  this wisdom lives in the soul and contains the intelligence that exists in the world. This world-intelligence, the Logos, appears as the book in which has been inscribed and engraved the formation of the world.

Further it appears as the Son of God, who followed the ways of his Father, and shaped the different kinds, looking to the archetypal patterns which that Father supplied.  In the manner of Plato, Philo speaks of this Logos as the Christ: For since God is the first and sole King of the universe, the road leading to Him, being a king's road, is rightly called royal. This road you must take to be philosophy ... the philosophy which the ancient circle of ascetics pursued in hard-fought contest, eschewing the soft enchantments of pleasure, engaged with a fine severity in the study of what is good and fair. This royal road then, which we have just said to be true and genuine philosophy, is called in the Law, the utterance and word of God.

***

Aye, Recoverer it is the most joyful thing - it is like a trumpet that sounds inside the heart.  It is deserving of respect that is all.

I do understand where you are coming from, like Shirley, no fondness for organised religion.  I am the same - I do not go to church (may the God-fearing people that go to church be filled with the joy that resonants with them for they are good people)  Alas though, I cannot find what soothes my soul in a church and I daresay I might be a bit 'odd' for their wonderful community. But then this is my internal struggle, for there is the Law and how can I think that i am different from the God-fearing people that do go to church - just because i am 'odd' this does not make me special. Over the years with this constant internal struggle of not going to church; I have to find my peace for my burning love of God and I have found my peace, my church is in nature, in the trees and the flowers, here i find my communion with God.  Although my communion with God is all the time through the Christ that lives in me.

This is the Glory - Christ is inside us - it is like a plant which at first has only green leaves and then puts forth a coloured blossom. The forces through which the flower developed were already latent in the plant before the blossom came into existence, but they became reality only when we recognise Christ is in us all the time.  And as a plant is watered and nutured so the blossom blooms.

Ah yes the church, this is our generation that says I feel the Divine Love inside me but I do not find my comfort in the church.  I might be too outspoken here and many wars have been fought in the Name of Christ ... but I say;  that church that sets its ruler on a throne thinking that he is the king but he is never hot nor cold he is lukewarm and has ruled over the nations in this manner turning people to think that Christ is as him has a lot to answer for. The original topic of this thread - I would place here in this man's house. But we know nothing happens without a reason and the reason here might be the recognising of this reason. But here i have voiced a political opinion and for this I to will have to answer and yes where is my respect here?

It is our generation that is re-kindling the Warmth and saying I recognise Christ in me and I recognise the Christ in you - and truly this is wonderful for we are one joined together in Love.

As Socrates says, When the soul reflects alone by itself, it departs into the realm of the pure, the everlasting, the immortal and the changeless, and being akin to these, it dwells always with them whenever it is by itself and is not hindered, and it has rest from its wanderings and remains always the same and unchanging with the changeless, since it is in communion therewith. And this state of the soul is called wisdom ... Then see, if this is not the conclusion from all that we have said, that the soul is most like the divine and immortal and intellectual and uniform and indissoluble and ever unchanging, and the body, on the contrary, most like the human and mortal and multiform and unintellectual and dissoluble and ever-changing ...Then if it is in such a condition, the soul goes away into what is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error, folly, fear, fierce loves and all the other human ills and, as the initiated say, lives in truth through all after-time with the gods.

Therefore the soul has nothing to do with death but endless communion with the Divine.  Some people might read this and not feel anything similiar in themselves, this is where the saying "those who have the ears listen" is appropriate.  When the time is right the plant will blossom - that is all - it is a natural process and ones expression might be different.  But; the cornerstone is to Honour God, whether silently in your heart or shouting out loud and respect His Creation that has made us alive and our Christ that is in us will shine like a beacon and will forever be our guide.

And yes there is a Divine Plan and we are part of it - this is how much God loves us.  Once we realise this, with reverence, can we truly start creating .. for if God be for us who possibly can be against us.

Thank you for the opportunity for me to express myself and appreciation to Bruce for this community and my respect to everyone here.

Glory to God in the Highest and Peace to His children on Earth.

Very cool Albert.

Love, Mairlyn

Marilyn and Augoeideian.

I find this a veryinteresting discussion
has been years since i went to a Christian church, only for weddings etc
I am facinated by what you guys think
thanks for sharing
Cathy B

Hi Dave

Thank you for picking up the original title of this topic.

What you have said makes great sense to me.  The rapture is happening all the time and the ultimate risen consciousness is rewarded through discipline rather than taking the face value of this scripture which might be viewed as being a selective and a elective once off occurance.

For we are eternally striving towards our Source of pure bliss, and as our consciousness increases so does the bliss.  So the scripture saying one is in the field and one is in the bed may be saying if you are not consciously gathering the wheat or if you are sleeping chances are you need to lol yes be recycled for your benefit (that is).

Discipline .. such a strong word fill of life's lessons .. choices really i suppose and as one gets closer to the source (through recycling .. stepping stones) the easier the yoking (nice word) becomes.  Although possibly the outside interferences become harder as well.

This quote might be approriate;
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty". - Frank Herbert

Again thanks Dave for your wonderful insight into this chapter.  To me; being pragmatic is disciplined and highly appreciated.  Indeed math is very esoteric. lol.

Hinduism .. how this literature soothes my soul.  Yes, Christianity became dogmatic because of the reason you mentioned; the inquistion.  In those days people initiated into the Christian 'mysteries' were sworn to silence as the enlightment was regarded with care for those who were at this stage of consciousness.  It was viewed that people who could not understand the deeper meaning of the messages would be doing a dis-service to themselves; as you said "go there and look for themselves" seems to be the only way towards enlightment.  No-one could just tell someone this means this and that ... the person had to feel and experience personally in order to understand the message intimately.

Today it is wonderful to see so many people discussing these messages and meanings. And i suppose today's debate is (like you said) attempting to express their personal version of the same spiritual experience.

I am glad you brought up the subject of retriving stuck souls.  I haven't stopped thinking about it since i came here.  i do have some pretty crazy dreams but i have never consciously in my sleep come across a stuck soul.  So i put forward now that i am not convinced that there are suck souls although Dave i respect you and because you have spoken about here maybe it is something that i have completely missed.

To me, from descriptions i have read here,  it seems these events take place in the Astral realm of emotions, senses and deceptions.  I worry in, although the intentions are honourable, whether retrivals are mis-leading and caught up under a cloud of emotional imagination. If we read Rudolf Steiner's 'Life beyond Death' there is a very clear path of what happens when one dies in the physical body.  I do trust Steiner's work and he does not write about retrivals.  I say this with huge respect to everyone who does retrivals; i am still a student and like i say maybe it is a part i have completely missed.  Om.

My love
Caryn

Bruce's work seems to be very disciplined, categorising all the different dimensions.  Huge respect to Bruce for his insightful clarity and the discipline he has in order to do this.

I can understand souls 'stuck' in Earth - this is our endeavour to get passed the gravity of it all.  I also believe that there are spirits that attach themselves to people like you say.  Mark Hedsel wrote about this in his book 'The Zealator' written after his passing.  With sketch artwork showing these spirits literally sitting ontop of people.  Also it is fairly common to sense these spirits on people.

I still would not call them souls or spirits though.  I would call them fragments of wasted etheric material used by anti-forces.  Souls are too big to descend upon a person and spirits are very flowing things, like the air, to be so fixed.

But as regards to people who have passed on and have been documented as been 'stuck' well what is been said here then basically .. it is because they do not have Christ in their lives? For it is said Christ is the way and the light.  However, even here i believe that we all come from the Godhead who gave us all a piece of Christ in us - so we return back to the Spark - some on different 'levels' sure but nevertheless back from whence we came.

People that do not go back to the Spark must then surely be not part of the Spark?

To get back to discipline and Bruce; he documented this for a reason and for this it must be real.
I will read his books and, God willingly, will keep on trying to 'rescue' lost people in the dimensions - for hands on experience is the only way to understand.