yes, I have some psychology thoughts; tell me if you think its any relevance to your train of thought...this is from my book..wasn't sure whether to leave it in the book or not...need opinion. thanks ahead of time.   (was gonna use our favorite bathtub smilie but it disappeared)

Guilt Which Acts Out


   LR made a study of certain relationships where people use guilt and innocence, or punishment and reward to some end. She asked DP what he thought about it, why they act this way. The following is his answer. It’s convoluted because it’s circular interaction-reaction behavior.
LR: DP, why did my mother push her chin into Big Jim’s fist? I saw this.
DP: Because she offered him a challenge LR.
LR: Why then did he hit a woman weaker in physical strength?
DP: Because the chin put itself on the fist? ha ha!
LR: Very funny DP. Could you be serious please?
DP: All right my dear. Remember one thing; a relationship is one unit. No victims and no perpetrators who did not come here for the interaction. Wisdom comes after the long walk home. No free rides. Guilt is a mask over fear which says punishment is acceptable, even desirable because within relationship can exist a game of control whereby one measures his innocence or his power against another.  It is a natural act spirit portrays within ego dominion and building. There is no judgment in ego building; such building creates greater consciousness starting in childhood; as does the act of separation from All That is Good create challenge. The thesis of no pain no gain, another belief system, yields it’s expectations of courage gain, internal fortitude allowing the ego to disintegrate and be cast off when of no use to a soul after experience gained.  Ego is necessary to navigate a belief system world, yet this is a unique planet and does not represent the only dimension of spirit playground.
   All beings feel right. Supremacy without wisdom is force unbalanced.  Within  consensus agreement we are obliged to observe force without wisdom, without compassion; yet the one who would come here for this, learns of this only here; this is his or her school room opportunity to develop correction within balance. Later, you see it was a movie you were in. A larger part of us, Big Mind we can call it, thrust a finger into the set. What you did observe was small mind. You were a projection of Big Mind, and you thought you were the beginning and the end as small mind. Remember the observer, the part of mind you came here to develop and when it happens, synchronization of events in your life fall into place easily.
    Rapists and murderers, the extreme examples in our society feel right. The common renegade spirit is energetically out of balance.  He is in agreement to be self seeking due to spiritual depletion and/or exploration of small mind. Victims arrange their lesson plans with such on unseen levels. The forceful ones are metered into the Earth plane according to planners; beings with wisdom.  Only the victim can reclaim or redeem the soul of the perpetrator; and this is unseen justice but tappable in the observatory lab.  As you know in this particular relationship you were witness to, Jim considered women as objects  beneath himself. Your mother begged to differ, literally. The victim role in this instance is getting one up-man-ship over the perpetrator; in other words, hit me, it feels good, because this will prove my righteousness. Two wrongs do not make a right, yet two are engaged for the purpose of the experience gain.  DP continued as if speaking for mother: If you hit me I can then prove I am superior even if I did something to make you hit me, you should have been in control  because we agree hitting a woman is wrong. He hits her, her point is proven. As she does this action, he perceives that might makes right.  While she claims her rightness within a claim to innocence. He has succumbed to a fear thought. She has succumbed to nothing.
LR: Hold on. She succumbed to a flight instinct. He split her lip and she ran away screaming.
DP: Right. Her spirit did not succumb. Her body was broken, not the spirit. She still felt right. Guilt and innocence was passed back and forth utilizing the body.  Between the victim and the victimizer is created the product of relationship. We are necessary for one another for our drama, we are one. We cannot be powerful beings without each other. There is no solution except to surrender having to be right, to the observer part of the mind, and this within generosity of spirit and lack of fear of loss. Did you notice the change in their relationship some thirty years later?
LR: Why yes, it was amusing! Jim had stopped punching although he could still get angry with her, she had a way of making faces at him, perhaps a twinkle in her eye like this was all a game.Then they would both laugh. They did this by eye contact and telepathy. It was instant balance for both of them. She was still pushing his buttons but now he didn’t lose control.
DP: Yes, she was teaching him where the boundaries were.
LR: Did he teach her anything?
DP: He allowed her to be herself. It is as a lovingness and reinforcement of her uniqueness that he gave her audience. She is a stubborn woman. He has grown to the point that he realizes she is no threat to his own sense of being right.
LR: That’s quite an accomplishment for him, wouldn’t you say?
DP: Yes, he had obtained control and possession of self in this life.

Eggshellseas,

First, I would pay careful attention to what Alysia writes. She is one of the wisest people on this board, and she isn't here because she has a dire need to be here.

"I don't believe in any kind of hell other than the one we are living in now. I think somewhere other than evil somebody created suffering. The two toghether make it really hard on those who are trying to be good."

You ARE good. If you think you have to try to be good,  like it's something you aspire to, that's a sign that your conscious awareness is not aligned with who you really are. This is a major cause of suffering.

"I don't understand the concept of fear either, the biblical idea of it is discipline."

Suggestion for now: The next time you read the Bible, remember this: Love and fear cannot exist in the same place at the same time. They are in contradiction. Fear is the absence of Love. Love is real, fear only appears to be real. Reread the Bible, but this time accept what strikes you as loving and toss out the rest.

"I have felt about some of the most unbehaved people around me in my life, is that I want something done about them, unless you have encountered a great deal of hatered in you life maybe then, you don't understand it."

Don't underestimate the suffering undergone by the members of this board. Trust me, you have no idea.

Balancing things out, making sure lessons are learned and things coming out in the end as they should in the big picture, are the responsibility of others. We are responsible for ourselves. We should mind our own selves. When we focus on what others should do, how they should be, what should happen to them, ect. we are not focused on ourselves, our own business. We are not minding our own store.

"There is someone that done things to me that I can't disscuss with anyone other than my family, and she hasn't really gotten away with it in a way but in a way she has, shes related to some very well known person."

She has not gotten away with anything. What she needs to learn will be handled by her higher self and guidance. They can do a much better job than either you or me.

"She should be in prison. I want her to go to prison."

Maybe, maybe not. What she goes through in this life is not up to you or me. And there are considerations that lie beyond the awareness of most people. Like attachments by dark entities, known in biblical language as demonic possession. What if this person had this problem? Would you wish prison, or the releasement of the entities? Which would be the more loving wish? Yet you problably don't know if this is the situation or not. This is an example of why it's best to withold judgement. We don't know everything. We don't have the big picture. And we don't know what this person came into this life of hers to do, to learn, and to teach those she interacts with. Sometimes we learn the depth and nuances of what Love is better by learning what it is NOT.

"I try to avoid the feelings but when I think about what has happened, you know I want her to suffer like I have. I want her to fear actually. I know its wrong but I feel that way. But punishment is not my job, and I begin to understand what punishment is. I don't believe in an everlasting hell. At some point unless a creature is just made to be evil then their has to be a release of something good."

No 'creature' is made to be evil. Wishing fear for someone, anyone, instead of Love is not being the good person you really are while also denying the divine spark that is in every creature. When you deny this divine spark, which is part of God, you are denying God (aka Pure Unconditional Love/All There Is). This is why it feels wrong. By wishing fear you are denying Love. By doing this you are doing two things: you are returning evil for evil, taking a step down from who you really are, and distancing yourself from God, Love, whatever you want to call it. Two wrongs never make a right. Our thoughts matter, btw.

Love,
Rob

Cosmic says: Something seems awefully wrong here.
But, it seems that this notion of fear has such a hold
that they are afraid to let their minds expand onto further extrapolations of the concepts of God for "fear" of being punished for all of eternity. This fear idea seems like an irreversable catch 22 that feeds off of itself and never
relents to a more meaningful solution.

Hi Cosmic,
(different tone on this quest than some of your recent ones. )
It's not in the quote above but seems like you answered your own question when you said it's the doctrines and religions that induced the fear. Maybe it happened innocently enough when some 2nd rate teachers (not like Bruce, Mair, alicia, spooky etc) got impatient and instead of taking time to answer, thought they'd throw in abit of fear to quell their students. Or maybe when religions become institutions they like to feel their power so they throw in the fear factor. Maybe it was valid in OT times for peoples' development then. Do you need it now?

I'm very surprised that you said it's irreversible. Where have you been, man? You found a wonderful community not based on fear, with belief, no,  experience  in PUL that leaves absolutely no room for fear. IMO it reverses as one makes those choices that leave fear out and replace it with the PUL.
Have you been working on your focusing exercises, so you can quiet your very cosmically active mind? Studies show  that racing your mind leads to anxiety and fear just because one cannot keep up with all it's poring thru, and such a mind can get your heart and other systems racing too. We have to find you a quiet park bench!
PUL to you!
bets

When I read fear, I read it in a couple of ways.  Someone familiar with Aramaic Greek or Hebrew might have a better answer for it as it pertains to the Christian Bible, but I always tend to look at fear as genuine respect and reverence in connotation, not to be read as "terror".  I.E.  If you were before the throne of God, you might fall on your knees from an overwhelming sense of the love, majesty, and awesome power of God (the Source, etc.), and you might describe that moment as having "fear of the lord".  This is merely a suggestion, as I do not claim absolute certainty about such matters.

I do believe in accountability, however, when it comes to individuals that truly choose an evil path in life and have done evil works.  This accountability, theologically, comes in the form of a self-condemnation, hence the theological ideas that you "choose" heaven or hell, and the experiential illuminations here that people choose private hells and the like.  Such an individual, when being confronted for the first time with the reality of what they have done and the full understanding of the wrongful nature of their actions (which they obviously did not lose any sleep over in their physical life) would most certainly feel a sort of shock, or even fear on a great magnitude.  A person immersed in hateful actions in life would most certainly be hit with a fear when they come into comprehension of their actions and the majesty of a creator. What happens beyond that, as far as redemption, forgiveness, and unconditional love, can certainly be possible, but I do believe there would be some fear involved for sure.  

Otherwise, there would be no degree of justice, and justice is a critical component of the divine nature.  Otherwise there is no value to goodness and virtue if every action, evil or good, equates the same.  Bear in mind that Justice, over the big picture, could certainly take the form of eventual redemption over stricly vengeance and punishment for the "errant" soul.  Yet it is still necessary if the goodness and virtue of other souls are to have value.

another lovely thread Cosmic   we be on a roll here lately I must say. the important thing is we each contribute our thoughts because only self expression and ownership of our thoughts is important..somehow just writing something down on paper or posting makes us grow within our own selves...now, if it turns out we can actually hear another speak a truth that we can own also, there is joy in coming together.

its a good thread when we don't injure each other but just sharing ourselves.

maybe I'm too fluffy...whatever...I've been accused of worse

love to all, what a bunch you are. probably my disc members...where have u been all my life...?

I'd forgotten about the condition that Newwayknight has brought up---that knee-buckling faint in the face of something powerful and wonderful and full of Light. Kind of like you can and should give it up for that being.  (  Might be like one of those fainting goats named for that island where Nixon had his getaway? )   It's a holy terror, but not in the sense that the phrase has come to mean here on earth/C1.
I don't ever expect to see God but some of his appointed ones may have enough light and grandeur in the afterlife to inspire that terror. It seems familiar somehow. I would rather give it up to them than try to hold on to my Will in the face of their being.
Maybe some remembrance of that type of holy terror is what some churches aspire to have, but they can't pull it off with even the most theatrical lighting, the fanciest pulpit/thrones,  and loudest shouting preachers.
I think the terror being discussed here on this thread is the artifically produced kind, interminably long, not the brief moments before some exalted being who then helps you recover with a wave/vibration of Love. Remember that?  I seem to , thanks to this discussion---thank you!

Hi Betson,

yes, it is that knee-buckling moment.  I'm one of those who would be overwhelmed with emotion in such an experience and couldn't help but react that way!  

anyhow, while on the subject of fear, I thought I would draw from a passage in St. Faustina's diary (she's the nun who devoted to the idea of the Divine Mercy, which touches on the concept of Universal Salvation, by the way).  It also touches on the knee-buckling aspect you mention.

Interestingly, it distinguishes "fears", and I read this passage not long after I left my original post on this thread:

Entry number 732  in Notebook II:

"The great majesty of God which pervaded me today and still pervades me awoke in me a great fear, but a fear filled with respect, and not the fear of a slave, which is quite different from the fear of respect.  This fear animated by respect arose in my heart today because of love, and the knowledge of the greatness of God, and that is a great joy to the soul.  The soul trembles before the smallest offense against God; but that does not trouble or darken its happiness.  There, where love is in charge, all is well."