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Will Cloned Humans have souls (Read 8995 times)
daan
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #15 - Jun 27th, 2006 at 7:37am
 
augoeideian wrote on Jun 27th, 2006 at 5:51am:
i got your point Spooky - did you get my point?

Can anyone make a seed, such as an acorn, and have it grow into an oak? Or make a protein containing 50,000 atoms such as are produced in the living human body, or hormones in apea-sized structure, as the pituitary gland and have these hormones regulate life process.  The atheist sciencist thinks he can because he thinks the process of creation is simple and says 'the atoms came together by themselves, for in such a way did man come into existence: out of the primeval BOOM, the primeval mists condensed into vapours, then to water, then to solid earth, and somehow along the way, a simple amino acid was formed, then a cell, a living cell! And this cell's progeny finally developed into man'.  Now, where did i miss the point as to how the amino acid became living? Or how was life added to the cell? And who formed the primeval mists and BOOM? Did the primeval mists form themselves? Hardly

Scientists say 'mutations are the very source of genetic variability, and so they are ultimately responsible for the evolution of all present forms of life'  the idea persists that if a chemist is able to produce an amino acid or any other substance, that life is created thereby. They miss a point;  In order to have life, etheric formative forces must interpenetrate the material, organising it, forming it and sustaining it.  Since scientists know nothing about such forces, it is inconceivable that they will be able to intelligently create such forces to interpenetrate their chemical creations in the right way.  That does not mean, however, that certain entities cannot enter and make use of what man brings about on earth.



Interesting, this conversation. Because they can't proove a soul in a living creature, they assume it doesn't excist. They can't make it visible, measure it's energy or anything else.
Another point where science needs PROOF to addapt any idea of spiritual energy.
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betson
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #16 - Jun 27th, 2006 at 8:31am
 
Re: Spooky's reply #12--
I was glad to read that because reply # 6 sounded like soul-designation was arbitrary or that we didn't know if souls were anything beyond a word. (But then why would the word exist?) So then I was just trying to say that if it's not a layer perhaps it's the velocity of the energies.
Daan,
You said "I live in Holland) so I mean soul with spirit" --- Huh
Sounds like we all have different ways of making the mysteries more real to ourselves.  I'd never thought of soul and spirit your way but will give it a try.  It could be refreshing!

This discussion is edging more toward contentiousness than any I've read awhile, or maybe that's just my mood.  Lips Sealed I'll pass.
  Smiley   bets
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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daan
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #17 - Jun 27th, 2006 at 9:27am
 
betson wrote on Jun 27th, 2006 at 8:31am:
Re: Spooky's reply #12--
Daan,
You said "I live in Holland) so I mean soul with spirit" --- Huh
Sounds like we all have different ways of making the mysteries more real to ourselves.  I'd never thought of soul and spirit your way but will give it a try.  It could be refreshing!

  bets


In Dutch, spirit is the translation for "geest". That word has actually 2 translations. It also means ghost, but more in the meaning of a hectoplasmic 3d figure.

Soul means "ziel" in dutch, which is in my language more like the word "spirit" in english I guess.

In my former posts I use spirit there where I mean your true self, without the earthbound body attatched.

(sorry for the off topic..)
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AH1976
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #18 - Jun 27th, 2006 at 4:17pm
 
daan wrote on Jun 27th, 2006 at 7:37am:
Interesting, this conversation. Because they can't proove a soul in a living creature, they assume it doesn't excist. They can't make it visible, measure it's energy or anything else.
Another point where science needs PROOF to addapt any idea of spiritual energy.


Actually I would say that you can prove the existance of the soul, but you can only prove the existance of ONE soul and that is your own, or rather my own.
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spooky2
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #19 - Jun 27th, 2006 at 7:33pm
 
Augoeideian, you're right, scientists only can modificate what is already there. They cannot create physical and spiritual laws. How far they can get in modifying life forms, or even bring a composite of proteins to life, future will show (I've heard there is a program running to create new artificial bacterias from non-alive ingredients). But of course, the life in itself, this phaenomenon, they don't create.

You can be of the opinion that it is wrong to engineer with and modificate life forms (what about breeding and cultivating?). But another one can say humans are just following a cosmic plan to give evolution a special way; like humans could be seen as catalysts to accelerate some processes.

I personally have a pragmatic point of view: I simply find most attempts in this area overfluid and not useful, and especially in the case of humans, ugly and surely suffer-inducing.

Like in the most ethic discussions, there is no logic argumentation possible to the last degree. At a point the reasonning has an end and what counts then is what your gut or spirit tells you about what is right and wrong.

I agree, God is the creator of everything, including of the entities/people who deny God and including their creations. Think of a poor little clone. Maybe he/she/it would appreciate love and care from us, once he/she/it is existing.

And I think too there is much waste of time and money in the field of science and engineering. What do they want on Mars? There are sure better places for vacation.


Spooky
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"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
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augoeideian
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #20 - Jun 28th, 2006 at 4:02am
 
Hi Spooky

Thanks for your reply written with depth and understanding.

i do think genetically engineering body limbs like arms and legs has its merits and these bio-scientist should be praised for their research and work in this field thats helps humanity and goes with the forces of good instead of against.  i wonder what they are up to with the artificial bacteria - maybe the cure for the cold? i can only hope that is the aim.

i cant see how cloning could be of any help in the evolution process, let's face it the world has an over population problem as it is - like you say - there is enough suffering and yes imagine the first attempts (and all attempts) of clones they would be mutant and they would become a classification of people with no hope (if it ever got this far, please not) and they would feel different and excluded and trouble would start festering.  phew a scenario that we dont need we have enough unloved in the world.

Yes, the waste of money spent on things that are way over the top and could be spent on houses and implementing solar energy and sustainability for the proverty striken - they just need to be shown care and be educated in survival tactics (to be straight) and learn dont have more children than they can afford too.  

Yes what are they doing on Mars good point Spooky - how many billions are they spending and all kind of undercover like they own Mars.  Again maybe we should feel sorry for them - maybe this is their way of convincing themselves of their immorality; money and power.

If only they knew that Jupiter is being prepared for us in Spirit and in Spirit we will go there with no need for money or military infacstructure.  (lol i know Spooky another seemingly non logic statement that can be argued to the last degree - but i believe this)

Keep well my friend
Caryn


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daan
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #21 - Jun 29th, 2006 at 5:11am
 
spooky2 wrote on Jun 27th, 2006 at 7:33pm:
....You can be of the opinion that it is wrong to engineer with and modificate life forms (what about breeding and cultivating?). But another one can say humans are just following a cosmic plan to give evolution a special way; like humans could be seen as catalysts to accelerate some processes....

Spooky


Cloning humans has more disadvantages apart from being unethic. Weak spots of the cloned being are also 100% replicated! In a normal way of perception there is no replication, but a mixture.
In that mixture the best parts are copied into the new lifeform, so it compares which combination is best. If one of the parents has a disorder in the immune system, the chances are big that this disorder isn't replicated in the mixture. By cloning it will be exactly the same.

This in a world where everything else evolves (bacteria, etc) it could even cause the disappearing of the human beings, if cloning where the way to reproduce.

It also could be a problem that some organisations would want to clone humans for replacement parts. Stated that these cloned humans will have a soul, how unethic would it be to use them as living parts for others? Science doesn't accept the spiritual part yet, so they won't accept cloned humans as humans, but more like medical experiences.


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augoeideian
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #22 - Jun 29th, 2006 at 7:53am
 
Thats a very good point Daan - it will just end up being a mess basically hey.
The limbs should be viewed as artifical as well.

Interesting the Dutch word for spirit is geest .. ghost .. i suppose that is what our spirits are and i was wondering when i had my short out of body experience whether i was then a ghost.  I am sure my dog (although he was not around most prob sleeping in his kennel) would have seen me as a ghost!  Ziel .. another interesting word almost like .. seal .. but just using word association here with ziel.

Smiley
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spooky2
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Re: Will Cloned Humans have souls
Reply #23 - Jun 29th, 2006 at 7:05pm
 
Hi daan, just a thought:
When everything is evolving as it did the way it did, humans will probably vanish in every case, just because of mutations. But it's difficult to say how fast this process is. Different species seem to be very different speeds of changing. My guess is...well, lets say in two million years humans will have turned to another species (without genetic engineering).

And about the recombinations- not only the "best" parts are combinated to the new genetic set. It's just the less fitter individuals had not as much children as the more fitter- natural selection. Although it may be not the whole story, and much is unsolved, I stick with the basics of the evolution theory, as they are gotten from many observations.

Spooky
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"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
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