I'm enjoying these new (to me) and interesting thoughts on the site. Natch, much of what is being said just raises more questions. Thanks for bearing with
me.

I'm curious......what is the difference between these oob experiences and
insanity? I mean, many many people have been dragged forcibly away and
institutionalized and bombed out on thorzine for the same thing, hallucinations, voices in their heads, etc.

What is the difference? What is broken in mentally unstable people? Is it healthy
for us to try to induce visions, "dead" people and such in our own heads?

Thanks for your thoughtful replies!

-Chuck

Greetings asethaa,
I can't speak for all of them     but I expect that their own fear and doubt propels them into a panic that other people then fear.  So they are sedated or locked away for' protection.'
If our society saw their initial experience for what it was, a wonderful opportunity to explore other realms, we would honor  rather than condemn.  From descriptions I've heard, shamans and adepts of other societies often begin their experiences in states of mind that are odd to their own people, but that is an acepted part of their abilitites and does not affect their being revered for what they learn.
Fortunately Bruce Moen and his teacher Robert Monroe have shared their explorations' information so that we are learning more about how to integrate such explorations into regular lifestyles.
Robert Monroe has an affirmation that we are to use the information we gain during these explorations for the betterment of human understanding. (Different words.) It makes me feel better--healthier?-- to know that I am helping.
bets

So spooky or anyone,
are you saying that it is up to the individual, or at least a consequence  of individual action, to make out-of-line experiences fit into a known social structure?  
What also about the  numbers  of people who are involved in a new practice or a new facet of reality?  Can numbers alone create a substantial-enough base for new perceptions to join accepted 'reality'?  
An example could be new 'behaviour' from music, say the birth of Jazz, or even the appearance of funeral jazzband processions. But of course what I really mean is about our explorations on these boards.

Sven und jen,
Re your question: "I was wondering, maybe "insane" people are simply naturally at higher focus levels than we are.. say, Focus 23 where some "hells" supposedly are.. "

Just an observation, not a full answer, ---In the several decades that I taught art I saw that several of the most sensitive, insightful, talented art students were the ones that had to seek professional psychiatric counselling in their adult years. They had so many qualities needed by our society yet they were bedeviled by doubts about why they felt different than others. They were a small minority.  When there were enough to set up a special advanced class for them, they blossomed, made friends easily with others like them.  But in larger social structures they were lost.
So in my experience I would say yes, sven und jen.
bets

Hi Chuck. I would say that we have this thing called consensus agreement, where if everyone is wearing brown, then we point a finger at the person whos wearing red or green and it becomes just an opinion then about this different person. opinions expressed too aggressively result in wars and/or the crazies being locked up. I sumit we are all in a degree of lunacy anyway on our way to sanity.

Daan, some of us already have proof of the afterlife. i think the journey is all about getting proof as you called it. but if dead people don't exist, just dead bodies, I'm not sure how you mean that negative or positively. because if I thought I was dead meat walking around, I would have checked out a lot sooner and left my baggage with the gatekeeper. theres not enough good times here on earth to live only one life. just ask the guy who got a gold watch for 50 years of service and then he died as there was no job to go to thus no purpose and he was the kind of person nobody remembered anyway. he's most likely sitting in some belief system area breathing a sigh of relief he's no longer in service to the status quo of bigger homes, faster cars and more insurance on the body that went into the ground.
proof....?  thats between you and your god and you can't share it very easily if at all; and you surely cannot measure PUL moments in a scientific lab. Saint Peter will be asking one thing..how deeply did you love?
scuse me for rambling and don't take offense. I just use this board for my own understandings to gain. blessings, alysia

I'll try to be a bit more specific on my first post Alisia. With dead body's I mean the remaining physical body after the spirit has left. Only as a direct comparison to the "dead people" remark.
Normally the body works as a coöperation with the spirit. In other words, as soon as something lives, it contains a spirit. When the spirit leaves, the dead body remains.

The evidence of the excisting of a spiritual realm is nescessary before people in general understand mental illness. Also the people who suffer from it, could benefit if they know what they see is "officially proven to be realistic".
As long as the science world (that includes medicine!) don't officially accept spiritual influence during and after life, the "disease" will not be stated correctly. Medicine looks for brain disorders/ trauma/ former experiences and also shovel "highsensitivity" or "lacking shield control" under the cover of "trauma". Leaving the patiënt with the idea that his senses are abnormal due to a mechanical failure in his body.

If only there would be a general scientific proof, not for the individual, but for the whole mankind, medicine would evolve enourmously, because the disease would be treated the right way.

Not only mental ill, but a lot of other diseases (stress, cancer, ADHD, chronical tiredness, allergies, alcohol adiction etc) can be healed IF treated the right way. That right way I think is spiritual. My father has been a healer in his spare time for several years, cured the most rediculous things and had to stop because of government threats!
They claimed he acted as a doctor without the official papers, and therefore he could be prosecuted. That he didn't receive any payment for it didn't matter.

As a human being alone, the evidence needed is solely up to the persons individual level of acceptance, but it would be a great step forward for mankind if officials would be given the hard evidence and proof that there IS a spiritual world, and that it influences and effects the lives of every single living creature on earth.

Science (for example atomic particle research, antimatter research etc) receives trillions of dollars, sensors worth 20 million dollars are dug under the surface of the earh to capture unemaginable small, massless particles moving faster then light; millions of dollars go into coremelting energy processing experiments and so on.
But when it comes to spiritual evidence it all has to be financed by individuals with a few bucks to invest.

That is the main part which bothers me. Human mankind as one would benifit from a certain proof, it would reduce the amount of grief substantially; it would show the uselessness of fighting a war; terrorism would collapse like a leaking dingy..
And medicine would finally get hold of a whole new territory of already known, but untill then not officially usable, ways of threatment which are much more powerfull then the average medicine.

I'm not thinking of my own person, I don't really care if I get hold of evidence before I die myself, I'm mainly concerned about all the people dying and the huge grief they left behind because people in general don't have a clue about the reality beyond death.

I hope you understand..

Love daan.

LaffingRain wrote on Jun 25^th, 2006 at 12:46am:


Thank you for taking the time to read my very long posts alisia,

I hope to have an exact date, given by the maya's. Probably you know that the maya calender ends in 2012, december.
I've not read the book about it "the end of the stolen time" but it is the end of, and the beginning of a new 26000 years period of time. It is said that this scientific age will come to an end then and I figure it only will end if someone gets scientific evidence of the afterlife.

So I'm hoping..

Love Daan.