Here is a link to an article that I thought some might find interesting/discussable:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Pretty interesting. Thanks for the link. Have you read Michael Harner?

I wonder if a lot of what she saw were creations of her own mind. In addition to seeing the devil and demons; see saw snakes, bats and dragons. It is hard to imagine that snakes, bats and dragons actually exist in the astral. I mean, come on, it isn't like bats and snakes are actually evil.

Another thing to consider is that the devil was destroyed with white light. Does this mean that the "devil" himself was destroyed, or just the devil that her own mind created?

One time while at work with my mind's eye, I saw a horrific, ragefull, image of myself as a demon, squirming within me. I understood this to be an aspect of myself that was created by my own fears. I kept this aspect of myself hidden for a while, until I was ready to look at it. The things we can create with our own mind, my oh my. If anybody thinks a demon was actually there, I don't believe you would think so if you knew the kind of person I am.

People tend to think of demons as beings who have characteristics such as hate, rage and ill will.  Such possible trates also exist within each of us, and so does the ability to create imagery that seems horrific.  With this in mind, it seems to me that an earthbound spirit could take on a nature that seems demonic.  I don't believe that there is a such thing as an infinite pool of negative qualities such as hate, anger and fear. Rather, sometimes beings, whether physical or non-physical, use the creative aspects of their mind to create such negative properties.

I do believe it is possible for one to attract negative earthbound spirits to one's self, if one has negative tendencies of mind taking place within. Some of these earthbound spirits might seem demonic, but if you see what is behind the facade they create and present, you'll see that the vastness of their source, God, abides.  Apparently this background didn't exist for the devil, demons, snakes, bats, and dragons this lady saw (since they were destroyed in white light), which suggests once again she experienced creations of her own mind.

Her multiple incarnation images were interesting.  It goes along with what Robert Monroe seemed to find when he discovered his I-there. His prior incarnations still existed. This suggests that reincarnation doesn't exist in the manner that is traditionally thought of. Rather, each incarnation is a self unto itself that is connected to other selves that incarnate in different time periods, and form one larger self.

HI C-A

As one of those who "experimented" - I inhaled! - I inhaled damn near everything, in fact-  and I got pretty well lost in chemical masturbation.  It's a very low yield activity. 

The loss involved is not from the chemicals, which can actually be useful, but from the attitude of wanting more stimulation, more fun, more gratification, regardless of what it might mean.  It eventually leads to stealing drugs just to get high, and to the associated chemical hell.

If you are seriously interested in methodical inquiry in this area I'd be very interested in learning more about what you're up to! There's darn little interest in self control in this area, but there's definitely room for serious inquiry for those who are willing to control their passions.

PUL, my friend-
dave

That is :
---greatly translutes her personal fears---

sorry about the typ-o

Hi,
identcat wrote:

>>>She should be focusing on the positive spiriual high she received, not the negitive unworthiness dumped in the vomit bowl. <<<

Yes, I agree. But I see also a good thing in this, it is a method of distancing herself from the "bad"; to see it's real and it's gone, and therefore to implant it strongly in her mind. It's very much like the "demons", which in a different approach one might say "own fears" or "aspects of self". When you imaginate it as standing before you, outside yourself (but also still with you, a sort of inner dialogue) this is a powerful way to deal with it, to either welcome it or leave it.

Spooky

Quote:


This story of Kira's brings up so many points. It is hard to choose where to start.

The story is about shamanism and hallucinaogenics. Combined, they are a potent mix. I'm not sure all shamanism uses drugs. Shamanism is found the world over. If Laplanders use hallucinogens, then I'm pretty sure they aren't the ones in this story! Yet I think some of the images are universal. I'm not sure on this, but surely one of you has looked this up? Michael Harner just uses drums in his book (not that he didn't take vine medicine at one time) but he gets results without drugs and some of the symbols that come up are the same. You can't interpret this Peru story until you know what it means that some of the symbols are universal.

Advocating exotic drugs for mental health has been going on a long time. (OK OK since before recorded history, but I mean more recently in published articles). One person who has been into this for 40 or so years is Claudio Naranjo.
http://mdma.net/claudio-naranjo/index.html
Actually there is enough stuff at the links in this site for a year's worth of discussion. If we are going to really discuss the Peru article we need to know that this struff exists and has been hashed over quite a bit. (after I typed that sentance I realized what words I'd used but decided to leave it)

Kira's article is actually quite coherent, considering how chaotic experiences such as hers can be. What is interesting about shamanic experiences is the consistency of the images and the ability of the shamans (shamen?) to know what was happening in her mind. And how kind they were.

I have trouble with analyses that reduce this sort of thing to just chemical reactions in the brain, because ultimately, physical reality is just a creation of mind, so it too is just chemical reactions in the mind.

Building a system in which negativity is conceptualized as demons is very clever, actually. Because then if you have a system for getting rid of demons, then you can get rid of the negativity. I was amused at how blase she became about seeing demons in her visions.  I liked her description of the green color and the geometric shapes. Sometimes when I am between wake and sleep I fall into a space sort of like that. I never thought that maybe I was seeing something with my third eye when that happened. I like that idea. So why is it so hard to accept that there might be specific "locations" in nonphysical reality?

yeah her retrieval of herself as a child was classic Bruce Moen stuff. Or maybe Bruce's stuff is classic shamanism in another form, who knows.See you don't really need drugs to do that, but I guess it helps some people. It would be interesting to get a follow-up story on how she felt later on. Did the reintegration of her splintered child change things in her life?

Quote:
Classic belief system crash, which was recently being discussed a little on another thread.

recoverer

having lived through at least some of the so-called drug revolution (mostly as a spectator), I realize the shortcomings of self-medication with some of these substances...(or with alcohol for that matter but almost everyone does that). Having known of people who died while playing with drugs, I don't think this stuff is trivial.

however, when done correctly and with supervision (hmm...that breaks in to Super Vision) it seems to have a positive outcome for some people.

why do you question it; have you read any of the literature?

maybe the point is that it is hard to work on one's self in isolation

and it is not for everyone.

But does that make the results not "valid"?