As some of you know, Don has some doubts regarding at least a few of the things Robert Monroe wrote in his third book. I have to admit that the items he mentioned troubled me too.

Below is a possible explanation.  I'm going by memory, so please excuse me if I miss a few points.

In one past life Robert Monroe would fly an airplane out of a cliff and natives from the jungle below would throw arrows and rocks at him as he flew by.

A lot of the information I receive from my guidance is symbolic. It is possible that with the above Robert Monroe received a symbolic representation of one of his former lives. He lived a life where people with technical abilities lived amongst people who lacked technical abilities. The throwing of arrows and rocks symbolized the opposition between the two groups of people. The cave represented that Robert's group needed to keep itself insulated from the non-technical people.

The above seems more reasonable than a literal interpretation, because for example, unless Robert flew real low, it is doubtful that the natives could throw rocks and arrows far enough to hit his plane.

Regarding the where and when this happened, Robert stated that he "didn't" know where and when it happened.

Regarding the priests who tried to get him to rape a nun, perhaps this was symbolic of his being part of a priesthood that had difficulty with priests who broke their vows, and the priests of the time had to make certain that new priests would stick to them.

Regarding the aliens who looked for jokes, this could've been a symbolic way of stating that each planet in the universe has something unique to offer; therefore, various races will seek each other for their unique perspectives.

Don might doubt the above, but from my experience the spirit World has a tendency to communicate information in succinct ways.

I asked my guidance for verification of the above. Often what they'll do is send me a word that doesn't seem to apply and can't be found in the dictionary, I'll look it up in the dictionary, and right where the word would be if it existed, is a word that does apply, but didn't come into my mind when I asked the question. They do this in order to circumvent my tendency of wondering whether I got the word from my own mind or them. Also, they'll often send me a word before I have a chance to finish asking the question, much less think of an answer (as they did in the above case).

For the above they gave me the word "rhododendron" which I didn't know how to spell--they often make use of my poor spelling ability when they communicate to me in this way--I erroneously looked for the word "rotedendron" and right by where the word would had been if it actually existed, was the word "ROTE."  

Because the above type of communicative process has happened a number of times in the past, I don't believe that the above occurance of obtaining a word was just a mere coincidence.  

For those of you who know about Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen, I'm certain that you know that ROTE refers to a quick, succinct and non-verbal manner of communication.

I believe that it doesn't take a lot of imagination to make a connection between learning about the nature of a past life in a succinct symbolic way and receiving a rote.

Whatever the case, I figure that Robert Monroe was intelligent enough to know that some people would take exception to the above three episodes, yet he still wrote about them. I wonder why?  Perhaps he was just simply honest enough to write about what he experienced, regardless of how it might sound to some people. Why he didn't state that they were symbolic representations, if they were, I don't know. And it is possible that a literal truth is represented by at least one of the episodes.  

Don:

I don't believe it's simply a matter of being fooled by some spirit. It is also a matter of determining whether what you experienced is actual or symbolic. Such experiences can feel the same. If a person is overprone to interpret things in a literal sense, they might interpret something that is symbolic as literal.

Why Robert Monroe didn't clarify whether some experiences might of been symbolic I don't know.  I believe it is a mistake to assume that his motives were impure.

I believe that just about all of us, except for perhaps somebody like Jesus Christ, are capable of making interpretive mistakes.

In the old days I used to follow eastern guru based teachings and supposedly gurus are never wrong, but I found that to not be true.

Quote:


Forgive my relative ignorance here, I have a couple of Monroes books but havent read them yet, but isn't he now deceased, possibly some time ago. I'n all fairness if he were around today it is entirely likely he would adress the comments you raise and maybe have his own explenations for them. We are getting more spiritually aware and 'clued up' all the time, its possible that back when the book was released people either bought into it or didnt and those voices who raised the same concerns you did may not have asked loud enough to be heard.


Please feel free to correct any errors I have made in my post.

Ok,

First of all. Don is clearly not opposed to "the Monroe doctrine".  Monroe, in a large part created the Gateway CD series for afterlife exploration.  Don is currently devoting a significant amount of time to exploring these CDs and their hemi-sync technology.  These CDs are heavily based in Monroe's experience with hemi-sync sound, and his ideas about the nature of consciousness and the ability to focus our awareness and energies.

I see Don's Monroe-bashing as a cry for help.  To find out that there is some objective data to support the notion of OOBE, astral travel and contact with the afterlife.  Unfortunately, this is more of a subjective understanding; less objective.  The idea that one can demonstrate in a reproducible fashion that someone  travels OOB, and reads a series of numerals, then "wakes up," and reports the exact series, is not often achieved, for several reasons.

The nearest example for this is the US military use of remote viewing - different than OOB with travel, but a way to connect to the universal subconscious and obtain information.  They found that people given certain training and geographic coordinates could report with a fair degree of accuracy about the appearance, activities and events at a distant location.  What was found by an amazing adept named Ingo Swann and his team, was that "the interpreter" in our mind needs to be turned off, so that we can report how our mind accesses this universal subconscious without our conscious brains putting a spin on things.

This is not easy.  Our logical brains tend to pigeon-hole and categorize data.  Successful remote viewers take great pains to report pure images given about certain coordinates, independent of their interpretations.  For example, one viewer may get images of steel girders.  His/her mind may then put these together and say, logically "I see a bridge made of girders."   However, the girders may represent a new construction site for a military plant, unrelated to a bridge.

Now, all this is documented in the remote viewing literature.  Let us take Don's examples of RAM kookiness.  We are told RAM saw himself as a caveman in a futuristic vehicle, dodging spears, etc.  How much of this was unclouded vision, and how much was formed by "the interpreter," part of the brain?  Why did RAM visit a friend's house and see more people in the room than were actually there?  Were others there in spirit?  Or did the interpreter in him affect his astral vision?

We may never have the answers here.  But the point is that a few unusual reports do not invalidate the entire process or experience of OOB travel or expanded consciousness.  Many who have gone to TMI have had profound life-changing experiences, spoken with deceased relatives, and reported the experience of visiting Focus 27 which is what most of us consider to be heaven.  There have been verifications with partnered explorations there.  The inconsistencies brought on by different explorers letting their "interpreters" get in the way does not invalidate these many experiences.

Matthew

[Elysiumfire:} "Why does it strike you as absurd that higher vibrations cannot correspond with lower vibrations?"
_________________  

That is not my opinion, but let me reply to what I think you want to elicit. To me, the claims of Robert Bruce and Gordon Phinn to have glimpsed an alien base on the far side of the moon are as implausible as claims that Lemurians inhabit the center of the Earth.  I feel constrained to reassess this judgment only because it might find some support in the astral explorations of Emanuel Swedenborg.  ES (d. 1788 AD) s the most impressive astral adept of all time.   For example, he could routinely visit any discarnate spirit he targeted and bring back high-quality verifications, including information that only the deceased would know.  I know of no other adept with such capabilities.   So I give special credence to ES's reports on the nature and principles of the astral territories.  {I launched a very long thread on ES several months ago.)

In his era, the surface temperatures of our planets were unknown; so speculation about their inhabited status was understandable, if misguided.  But when he claimed to have met these planetary inhabitants during astral journeys, I initially presumed he was hoodwinked by deceptive spirits.   But then my respect for ES's verifications prompted me to ask: did he instead misinterpret what he saw?  I would exclude this way out were it not for an NDE which exposed the patient to intelligent beings Inhabiting our planets "at a higher vibration."  I doubt that this patient knew anything about ES's claims about planetary inhabitants.  So this NDE might be independent corroboration of a seemingly absurd claim. and so, may prove more strange than absurd.

[Elysiumfire:] "You brought up the subject of the NDE and issues it allegedly reinforces.  I would be grateful if you elaborate on what these issues are."
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I didn't mean to distinguish modern NDEs from ancient ones.  But let me say this: in my view, NDEs provide by far the best evidence of survival.  Let me quickly offer 6 reasons why I feel this way:

(1) the ability of some patients to float out of body and accurately describe objects like surgical equipment and a concealed sneaker on a hospital ledge, and events and conversations happening at a distance.

(2) the ability of patients born blind to see in color during their NDE, when they are incapable even of dreaming in color.

(3) simultaneous NDEs in which the dying are able to converse at a distance in the presense of witnesses:  I know a minister named Albert Baldeo.  When his Dad was dying, his face lit up and he shouted, "Hurry up, brother!   Hurry up!"  Unknown to Albert, his Dad's brother was also dying 10 miles away.   At exactly the same time (around 12 noon), this brother sat up and shouted, "Wait for me, brother!  Wait for me!"  Then both died simultaneously.  All of this was later confirmed by the witnesses present.

(4) NDEs in which the angelic apparitions continue during waking life and are even witnessed by an independent observer (e.g. Howard Storm's new pastor): In Storm's case, it is clear to me that these angels miraculously saved him from certain death.  His book 'My Descent into Death" is the most inspiring book on an NDE I've ever read.  During this NDE, Jesus even speaks English with  Aramaic nuances that Storm could have no way of knowing.

(5) NDEs which do not conform to one's prior belief system: e. g. a Muslim who was converted to Christianity when Jesus appeared to him; the many times Jesus appears to atheists, and the fact that Siddartha Gautama (the Buddha) never appears to Buddhists and Muhammad never appears to Muslims.  {I've been unable to come up with a single exception.)  In this respect, I'm impressed by the fact that Betty Eadie's prior belief in the reincarnation doctrine was refuted by her NDE.   I say "doctrine" because both she and atheist Howard Storm are informed during their NDEs that only a few reincarnate on earth.   I realize that some NDEs contradict the claims of other NDEs on this and other issues, but I'm particularly impressed by astral experiences which contradict one's prior beliefs.    

(6) Robert Monroe's claims about the nature of various astral planes derive independent support from impressive NDEs.  So though he performed badly in his OBE test for Tart and though his astral past life recall strikes me as absurd, I don't deny that he had genuine OBEs.  Also, I might mention that the very day I finished Monroe's first book, I went to a single's club and was approached by an attractive female who regaled me with stories of her OBE adventures.  She hadn't even heard of Monroe!  I'd never met anyone like this and it seems hard to dismiss the timing of this encounter as mere coincidence.  I will later create a separate post on how some of Monroe's astral claims derive independent support from NDEs and other paranormal experiences.  

Let me give you some background about me that oldtimers here already know.  I experienced an OBE on my first attempt through self-hypnosis.  I floated up to the ceiling and looked down on my body.  I lay over my body and tried unsuccessfully to synchronize the movement of my astral fingers with my physical fingers.  Later, I performed a retrieval of a girlfriend who committed suicide.  I was so excited for a while.

But then I learned how to have lucid dreams.  I projected myself to fictional locales and argued with the "natives" that they were merely figments of my imagination!  After all, I knew I was "back there" in bed.  These dreams were so real and vivid that I gradually and reluctantly had to admit that my OBEs were really nothing more than lucid dreams.   This disillusionment energizes my skepticism of dubious astral reports from others.  But I do believe that the OBE can be a genuine phenomenon and that is why I'm exploring with Monroe's Gateway CDs.  I'd love to retrieve Janet for real some day.

Don

One thing that is important when it comes to an OBE is to consider the context of what you experience.

While meditating or while laying in bed while awake, I've had a quite a few experiences where I was out of body. Most of them served the purpose of symbolic instruction. For example, one time I was meditating. Suddenly I found myself standing in the back room of a church. A young lady was trying to decide whether or not she actually wants to get married.  Next I'm standing in the church hall (Is "hall" the right word to use?). The church is very detailed and seems like what you might find in a European City. The young lady decided to get married. Next I'm standing in front of two dark brown wooded doors that lead out of the church. They are part way open. There is white light behind them. I get the message (exact words not remembered), God's light is there for me to experience. I just have to decide to make a commitment like the young lady did when she decided to get married.

It was obvious to me that I didn't actually travel to a church just before a wedding started. Rather, I was presented with a question in a symbolic way.

Another example. I had an OBE one night where I was taken to a dance light years away by an alien. The alien led as we danced. Even though the experience felt real I doubt that I actually went to a dance with an alien. I believe this was just a symbolic way for my guidance to show me that I don't have to worry about aliens.

I believe that some OBE's do take place in order that various spirit realms can be shown, but certainly not all of them.

Regarding Charles Tart's test, I believe that Robert Monroe wrote about this in his first book. Therefore, he didn't try to hide the imperfect results.

Perhaps what he perceived correctly should be given credit. The thing is, the senses you use during OBE are different than the senses you use while in the physical.  Also, your interpreter is liable to get in the way in a manner that varies from how it gets in the way while you are in the physical.  Here's an example. One night I had an OBE. I traveled to a house I wasn't familiar with. It was shaped a certain way and had a particular shade of green. The green had an odd texture and I didn't understand why. The house was located accross the street from a school and I understood which school.

The next day I drove to where the house should be in order to verify what I saw during the OBE. A house with the same shape was located accross the street from the school, on the same part of the block as my OBE (third house from the left). However, the house was painted white. This caused me to be dissapointed until I looked at the house's roof. It had tiles that were the exact same shade of green (a real light shade) as I saw during the OBE. It had a course tile like texture, which explains why I saw the house's paint job with an odd texture. Some how my mind's eye combined my perception of the house's walls and ceiling into one image. Because I saw this house mentally rather than physically, my range of perception was different than usual.

Our discussion has inspired me to reread Monroe's implausible astral tales of past life recall.  I'm convinced by his tone that he took these experiences quite literally.  Perhaps they are symbolic like dreams, but if so, I doubt that they have anything to do with reincarnation. 

I suspect the real problem is this: the line between dream-like experiences and genuine OBEs may not always be clearcut.  I have experienced the classical symptoms of an OBE: heightened awareness, floating near the ceiling, looking down on my body, and trying to reunite with my body, but being unable to synchronize the movements of my "astral" and physical fingers.  As I've explained, I came to the reluctant conclusion that this was just a lucid dream months later when I learned to experience extremely vivid lucid dreams in which I was aware of lying "back there" in bed and arguing vehemently with a female dream figure "in Boston at high noon" that she was merely a figment of my imagination.  Of course, I'd love to experience a genuine OBE as a control for these insights. 

Matt inadvertently overlooked the number of errors in Monroe's visit to Tart. Matt focused on the fact that too many people are present and wondered if Monroe was seeing astral spirits in Tart's home.   But there are more significant errors than this in Monroe's report.  Tart adds: "His continuing description of of what our home looked like and what my wife and I were doing was not good at all: he `perceived' too many people in the room (the one point Matt notes), he `perceived' me doing things I didn't do, and the description of the room itself was quite vague." 

In the OBE state it is probably easy to slip in and out of more dream-like conditions while barely noticing.  During my OBE, I had no doubt that the experience was genuine.  I suspect that this shifting tendency accounts for  many irreconcilable contradictions about the nature and structure of astral territories and for contradictory perceptions about whether astral past life recall is genuine or bogus.  For this reason, the sustained intensity and clarity of astral focus is most important and probably enables Swedenborg to provide his uniquely powerful verifications and his amazing detailed recollection of long astral conversations. 

I've been experimenting with Monroe's Gateway CDs for hours.  I find myself annoyed when his voice assures me that I'm at a certain focus level when I'm confident I'm not.  For example, I meticulously follow his instructions for entering Focus 10 (mind awake, body asleep).  I get very relaxed, but never experience my body as asleep---well, with one exception.

Last week, I played the Wave 2 CD for entering Focus 12.   I was annoyed that the instructions for shifting from 10 to 12 were simply to count slowly from 10-12.  But I did something this time that made a big difference: instead of sitting in an armchair, I lay down in the dark.   Common sense tells me that a belief that we're in a certain focus may be quite different from actually experiencing that focus.  I don't think I entered Focus 12, but Focus 10 seemed to become a reality.  I could feel no bodilly sensation, but my mind was very alert.  I was supposed to seek "guidance" and did so.  It seemed absolutely convincing at the time, but in retrospect seems like mere wishful thinking.  Still, the mind awake-body asleep sensation was a hoot!  Very peaceful and exhilarating.   I provisionally conclude from this that it is easy to misjudge what Focus level or state of consciousness one is actually experiencing.   But that's OK because it might explain some contradictory claims of different astral wannabes. 

Of course, these insights are provisional and subject to revision as I gain more experience with different states of consciousness.

Don

Regarding the connection between imagination and exploring, I believe that the spirit World is partially the result of the collective imagination of the spirits who inhabit it. Often they'll experience the same thing, but sometimes they'll experience something different according to what each spirit chooses to experience.

It is possible that Robert Monroe's mind added to the enviromnent he experienced when he visited Charles Tart.  The key is, did he idetify anything that actually was in Charles Tart's house or that took place. I don't mean, like there was a table in his kitchen (duh). I mean things that were quite specific and hard to know about without actually being there.

Another thing. I've found that my ability to perceive with my third eye has increased. When did Robert Monroe's experimentation with Charles Tart take place? It is very possible as Robert became more ready energetically (chakra development etc) that his ability to percieve accurately improved since the time he experimented with Charles Tart.

Like Don, I re-read Robert Monroe's past life experiences, and he wrote about them in a literal way.