Hi Dalila-
I'll try to exemplify what I mean. Unless I am seriously wrong, this site was actually not intended to be a sounding board in which one religion would be used to criticize another, but instead the intent appears to be more a matter of expressing discoveries, experiences, techniques and other information about the afterlife in specific, and related experiences in general.  This often has a great deal to do with one's preconceptions of the nature of reality, hence with religious beliefs, but only incidently.

Bruce Moen's books may or may not interest you, depending upon whether you are interested in what he does. But his writings deal specifically with rescue of souls that get stuck in earthly activities, and are thus bound to the everyday world, rather than becoming free to go on into the Light.  I was fascinated by this because I use very similar methods when I work with people who appear to have some kind of entity attached.  Thus, what I learn here about soul retrieval also applies to my own work.

It seems that about half of the people on line here have had distinct spiritual experiences. For me it has been recollection of my past lives. For others it is "near death experiences" (NDEs)  and a lot of those who meditate have "out of body experiences" (OOBs or OBEs depending on choice of abbreviation ).  Many people who post here actually practice the same kind of soul retrieval as Bruce, often as a result of attending his training seminars, or after listening to the CDs with his "Home Study Course".  From time to time the site attracts people who are dealing with a haunted home, or who sense loved ones in their homes who seem to be attempting to communicate with them, and they are curious about such things. Then there are many who post here who describe communications from what appears to be a spirit, an angel, a demon,  friends thousands of miles away, or similar experiences.  Another discussion that comes up repeatedly is the nature of prayer, and whay it is effective in causing change.

We also have those who practice various disciplines, such as yoga. Of the three "root yogas", interestingly, Islam falls into the general category of karma yoga practices - union with God through actions dedicated to selfless service for its own sake, rather than for rewards. Christianity would be termed a bhakta yoga approach - unity with God through devotion that transcends the nature of the ego-self. Buddhism (at least  the Vajrayana form) would be termed a jnana yoga - union with the Highest Truth (universally pervasive and immanent consciousness) through a path of understanding and awareness. In my practice I have what I call a "three aspect therapy" in which I attempt to assist people to develop each of these three paths.

You have given a pretty good outline of your beliefs, but I am interested in the subjective experiences that led you here, to this site. I'm just a visitor here, like you, so my curiosity has no particular importance. However, I am willing to guess that something happened, a personal experience of some sort, as a result of which you have come to this site.  Further, just as Sufis and Dervi have inner experiences of a spiritual nature as a result of their practices and meditations, some of which I  too have experienced, I'm curious what personal experiences of a Spiritual or Divine nature you might have had.

Understand, please, that I do not intend to pry, nor ask that you discuss anything you feel inappropriate.  I'm actually more motivated by curiosity about the degree to which your beliefs shape your spiritual life, aside from the obvious practices of your faith,  how you personally feel about  discussing such things, and how you feel about their occurrence.

peace-
dave

Hello

Dave,now i understand what you meant.I did not have a pastlife remeberence or neard death experience,my grandmother passed away a few weeks ago and since they i have had spiritual feelings.I have seen her in my dreams and i have talked to her,thats why i got more into this with afterlife.I of course believe what islam teaches me but i just wanted to find a site where people disccused that,because muslims usually dont talk a lot about it since its known as "gajb"(the unseen,something only God knows about)..and i agree with that,but sometimes you want to talk about it.

Cary,i understand what you say but i believe in everything Quran tells me thats why im called muslim,its not weird.I understand that spiritual people can also be more individual and see nothing wrong with it

Peace

Hi Dave and Dalila,

Bruce talks of hollow heavens, where people with strongly limited religious beliefs continue as they were on earth until they realize there are other possibilities, and the inconsistencies in their rigid religious beliefs become apparent.  These heavens are called "hollow," I believe because there is a great deal of creativity that is denied to the inhabitants there because it does not enter into their belief system.   

In this system of TMI and as noted by Bruce, the greatest freedom of creativity and activity comes when one understands that our consciousness is part of the unity of God and that we can be, as Dave calls it "co-creators," in the heavenly realms, thought translates much more loosely into reality than on earth. 

If the nature of Islam is to "submit," to the divine, and if for many, the fatwahs given down by the Imams are accepted as God's law, without question, then I wonder what members of Islam are allowed to explore and debate what is meant in the K'oran.  What percentage of this group of people would be led toward a rigid heaven.

What I like in Judaism is that study of the Torah and Talmud has been constantly refined and debated and questioned over thousands of years.  Indeed questioning and debating, interpreting the meaning of ancient texts are encouraged.  I've often wondered why Judaism does not talk more of the afterlife in general.  I think I have found the answer, gradually.  This group of Abraham's children concentrate on what it means to be a human being, to live with each other, how to be a good person.  To live by the golden rule.  Rather than concentrate on the afterlife, or promises in heaven, the concentration on the here and now, and living a good and just life.  If achieved, then future evolution in heaven is assured, as the average person will be guided toward loving principles and not bound with expectations in a hollow heaven. 

I am most interested in hearing from Dalila about whether or not debate about laws and teachings in Islam is allowed, and whether you feel that it is a sin to question and reinterpret scripture and laws. 

Matthew

Let me add that I feel pretty dumb to not be able to communicate without written symbols.  So, let's try this, which is a statistical view of cosmology.  It can be expressed in symbols, but need not be. Dalila, forgive my dumping this stuff into your thread. However, perhaps you'd like to give me your opinion. Or if you have a friend who's taking math, perhaps their opinion as well.

Reality is essentially an infinte fractal, layer after layer of repetitions of the same thing, each of which evolves out of its predecessors. It is repetitious in the direction of sequences (we interpret this direction as time) and also in the direction of definitions of states (we interpret this as space).  There is neither a well defined beginning, nor is there a well defined end, but we sense evolving process as unlimited and beginningless, and our own embedded universe as a spatial and temporal set of definitions in that general background.

We view the world perpetually changing, the properties of objects coming together to form new sets of properties that we associate with new objects. In this sense, history perpetually accumulates, so the amount of information perpetually evolves.  This cannot be a steady state universe, else the accumulation of history would not occur. In thermodynamic terms, history is information, and information is entropy, a statistical expression of state. Thus, "Entropy always increases," is the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Since everything is eternally projected as a fractal and yet is not a steady state, then it must be an oscillating state. That means that the origin of each fractal projection is implied by all the fractal projections that came before in beginningless time, and yet is new and unique at the instant of its projection.

The initial instant of any projected fractal can be further projected into the past from which it arises as somehow implied by prior conditions. This is not practical, since it leads to an infinite regression. Instead, it is simplest to observe that "our universe" begins with projection of a dyad, a logical term projected as a specific fact, and resting in a context of generality projected as a space. (Another way to look at this is that Voidness has two properties, one is that it is so vast that it can never be filled, so it has no external limit.  Also, voidness is so empty that it is a vanishingly tiny locus without any interior, so it has no internal limit. The Vast and Tiny thus are the initial dyadic form.)

The initial dyadic elements relate by direct combination of properties, and formation of synergies, creation of new structures that have properties above and beyond those of any of the components. (As an example, a motor vehicle has properties found in none of its individual parts.) This creates, by immediate implication, an infintely extended array of relationships. These occur in voidness, and provide the means of measuring and defining the voidness as a space. They also define the potential spaces that might be formed by the various states of definition.  By selecting the ordering of states by choosing one or another path through the potential state spaces, we select a realizable state space.  In fact, this is self-selected as the most probable state space and emergent sequence, providing for such things as the triple alpha formation of carbon, and the rather circuitous production of fluorine.

Within the self-selected universe, we can abstract both pure information and also physical structures. When the levels of abstraction imply a choice of future abstractions in response to those previously made, we have a regenerative information system. The parallel is a regenerative physical system. Thus we have evolving spirit and also flesh.

The three classes of "spirits" seem to be purely abstract information states that propagate blindly, and their parallel as prions or virii, information states that are organized but not embodied, and the parallel would be bacteria and plants, and finally information states that are self-directing, and their parallel, higher animals and human embodiment. (I notice a parallel to the Djinns here. I'd expect two levels of them, one senseless, like the desert whirlwinds, and the other goal directed, like an incomplete human spirit.)

This sequence has expressed a sequence. The Cause of the whole sequence is beyond knowing in full, but we can point to a few properties. First, immanence; it's everywhere over all existence. Second, unity of everything with its initial instant, so that everything is a manifestation, clothes for the Spirit of God, in a sense. Third, logical consistency, plus the necessary contingencies that define the types of space in which evolution might occur (additive, conservative etc). Fourth, the projection is a binary quantum in nature, so that reality follows statistical expectations, and Planck's constant can be derived as a Gibbs' distribution, and the world of Quantum Mechanics follows, as does everyday experiences.

When the body falls off, it is logically a case in which a level of generative growth has been completed. The newly defined being is now a nominally undefined state projected into a context. It thus forms relationships with the elements of that context, and in this it also forms a relationship to the initial Cause. (This is like redefinition of  changes to a subset relative to a metaset of which it is a member.)

We interpret that as movement into the spirit world which exists as a sort of "side view" of the evolving universe. In addition to the universe that we just left, we also have a vast number of similar parallel universes laid out before us, each with different implications if we choose it. We choose the next universe, and thus the next lifetime, according to the way that looks most appropriate according to the way our past life seemed. However, we are limited by logical cause and effect connections. Thus, a person in total accord with the universe can go anywhere. A person with an existence supported by theft, murder, torture and mayhem is limited to universes in which those occur. We call that "karma".

So long as we are in accord with the universe, meaning the nature of the Creator, we can reach into the spirit world to converse with dead friends and loved ones. Further, so long as they want to hang around our universe, they can haunt us and communicate to us.  Usually, we go on to a new reincarnation, leaving the past lives behind.

And that, my friends, is the best I can do to describe how I see it in simple terms.

dave

Hi all,

I have been following this site and reading Bruces' , Monroes' and other books for about 5 years now.  I have become interested in the afterlife after I lost my Father and seen a vision of him 3 night after his death. He ,in my vision, was trying to make some explanations to me about the after life and son on.... anyways...

Why I chose to write to this topic is becuse I was born as a muslim too. I am not arabic though  I can not read, write, talk, or understand any word of it. I am from Istanbul... .

Muslima23,

I can see why you came to this site and post questions, although you may not agree with me I think that you are becoming aware of the world outside of any religion ,although you do not realize but you sure realize it subconciously.

I can not say that I am a practicing muslim since I do not practice anything that our religion tells us. Muslim  religion was given while I was born. Then you may ask why are you considering yourself as a muslim if you are not practicing it. Well you are right, you know why? Because the "Ezan" in the very early morning makes me cry, the sound of imam gets in to me real deep and makes me feel very very peacefull although I do not understand any word of it. This is what really touches me being a muslims.    Other than that I sometimes pray in my own language. 

Since child hood I have always had a feeling deep inside telling me that there was more in this world than religion( not just Islam, any other religion) After I have had some experiences with the afterlife than I became aware of the limits of religions that keeps people from seeing more....(help me here if I am not making any sense).

I do belive in religions all over the world, but I just think that all religions have been exploitted by many people and they have been distracted from their real purposes. God sent to us prophets from time to time to makes us understand of him, but some of us killed them some of us just did not care and misdirected their teachings. And many documents of any religion do not mean to much to me since I feel that finding the answers by yourself is the most accurate thing to do. But this doesn't mean that I do not respect to religions, I respect all of them and I respect everyone that practices them. I am just from the ones that likes to discover things by myself and understand the real purpose of life, soul and other things in first hand.

Also a little word about suicide bombings and Islam. Well, some muslims are misdirected by other fellows muslims that if they kill from other religion or what ever, they will be rewarded with heaven and "Huris'"(women) in the other world.  Well this is complete ignorance and lack of any truth. As far as I know, (well muslima23 should know better than me) Islam doesn't support killing people no mather their nationality or religion, this is a game played by some idiotic people on the fellow good hearted people.


Well just wanted to drop in...and write a few things.  These are my my thoughts, let us though keep this topic away from the politics since this is a site for spritual development.

My best regards to all.