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The islamic view of afterlife (Read 25001 times)
Rob_Roy
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #45 - May 11th, 2006 at 12:46pm
 
Dave,

"Or maybe I'm just confused, Rob."

No, you aren't, not a bit from what I can read.

"And when we establish human religious organizations, each of them has to be the "one and only way to salvation".

Yes, black & white, intolerant thinking.

"It could be that I'm simply being antisocial, but it makes more sense to me to look at what all the spiritually developed people have said over the ages, and to first examine what they all say."

Yes! But, it seems, we have to be at a certain point to be able to do that.

"All major religious systems tend to agree, but they add their own little bit about, "You have to belong to Our Holy Group or you'll be eternally damned".  I seem to have missed that part in my readings of the Bible, Koran, Vedas, 'Gita and Upanishads or other writings. The part that makes sense is that God is Merciful and Compassionate, the Infinite Friend who brings Unconditional Love and rejoices in recovery of the Prodigal Son. The other part I missed is the part that says that if "Our Holy Group" happens not to like somone because they disagree, we have to set up an Inquisition or have a holy war.  It seems that those being served and honored by these human traditions are not necessarily those who established the various faiths."

Yes.

"My reading of the Koran, for example, includes a remark by Mohammed that Jews and Christians are also monotheists, believing in the same one God, and thus should be tolerated and respected.  So we have one set of mullahs telling the people to be peaceful and accept their neighbors, and another group that tells their followers to go out and kill.  But it's unfair to blame this on Islam, because, as Ahmadinejad 
pointed out, we have "borne again Christians" still waving a battle axe.  Interestingly, nobody seems to understand what's happening."

It seems to me that what a person gets from a given scripture depends on their soul development and their awareness. I think all religions have a mix of followers. The Love is there in all of them for those who can receive it; the discpline is there for those who need it, and those who go off the tracks problably would have anyway, regardless.

Rob

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dave_a_mbs
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #46 - May 11th, 2006 at 2:51pm
 
Hi folks-

Dalila, I agree that for the religion of the people in the street, Islam is indeed the only religion in which we have  specific effort to follow the will of a single God. This is actually a significant improvement over the more common street-level understanding of most peoples.

The streets in Buddhist nations are filled with common people who worship the Buddha,  yet the term "buddha" simply means "a person who is awake", and Siddhartha himself  was nothing but a regular person. In fact he told people not to make statues of him or to venerate them. The thrust of Buddhism was especially against religious asceticism, starvation, standing on one leg for years, and similar things, when the problems were essentially unawareness of how and why the world operates.  To get rid of the stone idols and the thousands of gods of the common interpretation of Hinduism, Siddhartha denied the existence of a pre-existing material God, as Richard Burton put it, no "bigger, stronger, crueller man". Also the idea of a permanent unchanging soul that was made of some kind of permanent "soul stuff" with eternal existence was denied. Instead, if we look into the core of both Hindu and Buddhist beliefs we find the notion of either a Universal Consciousness, which is one way to view God as the All-Knowing and All-Understanding , or the idea of Brahman, the name Hindus give to God in the sense of being the Ultimate Creator, much as St Thomas Aquinas called God the Uncaused Cause.

In the Upanishads, we read that Natchekitas' father made insincere offerings to God. Natchekitas criticized his father's offerings. His father did not like it.  Because it was customary for a father to give the son to apprenticeship, he asked his father, "To whom will you give me?" His father snapped,  "I'll give you to death." So Natchekitas went to Death's house and knocked, but Death was out being busy. (It is said that Death's proper name is Yama, because that was the first man, and when he died, nobody was runnning the Underworld, so Yama inherited it.)  After three days Death returned and was horrified that he had a left a prestigious visitor unattended. He said, "Ask of me three boons, and I will grant them, no matter what they are." Finally Natchekitas asked, "How many gods are there, Yama?" Death replied, "Where there is water, there is a god." Natchekitas asked "Oh yes, but in truth, how many?" Death said, "Nine thousand nine hundred ninety and nine." "Yes, said Natchekitas, "but really how many are there?" Death said, "Nine hundred ninety and nine." "Oh yes, but in truth how many gods are there?" This went on for a while, and finally Death replied, "There is but one god." Natchekitas then asked, "And tell me then, what of the other Nine thousand nine hundred and eight?" Death replied, "They are but God's other manifestations and appearances."

I'm also reminded of the Hoopoe in the Conference of the Birds (Farid un-Din Attar), explaining that most of our impressions, or goals and values, and desires in the world are imperfect until we settle on taking personal responsibility for  everyday life and spiritual development.  As we ascend the tree of wisdom, we begin to acquire a new awareness. At the common levels of people in the street, there are many who confuse names with the underlying reality. 

One step in solving this was the Prophet's simple statement that God has many names, all of them most excellent.  It makes no difference whether we use the term Jaweh, Ram, Brahm, The Creator,  or simply God - literally Allah.

I get the impressions that many non-philosophical people still
argue that each religion has a separate God, even though they are monotheistic.  From a philosophical viewpoint, it seems far more likely that we have numerous manifestations of a single God, in each case presented to the people in accordance with their needs. 

Each of us seems to have been guided into the appropriate religion for our own needs, so that we can develop our strengths and work through our frailties. Unfortunately, many fail to use the opportunity to develop the Doctrine of the Heart, and are content with the Doctrine of the Eye - that after prayers today we can go out and lie, cheat and steal from our neighbors. This shallowness, coupled with failure to exercise the abilities given us, is where we develop the Nasrudins of every faith, such as Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor in Spain.

The ideas that most of us who bring our different faiths to examine the world of spirit are an effort to find a common path, a single door through which we can enter.  Thus far, because religion is always a human interpretation of the divine, it seems that we remain at odds. Much of this is that we refuse to accept that others, acting in good faith in the religious traditions of birth, can have beliefs and experiences that differ from our own Yet that is certainly true.  Example - I can recall what must have been 60 million years of evolution, yet I am not a psychic intuitive in any way.  Bruce Moen is a psychic intuitive with motivation to rescue those who get stuck while transitioning into the afterlife. I've worked with people who have been killed in Nazi death camps, who once were US GIs in Viet Nam where villages were being destroyed and now are having nightmares and feelings of guilt to be unable to stop the killing. I recall a young woman, previously a guard at Auschwitz, who was so sorry for the Jews that he killed hmself, and then felt guilty in this life. Not long ago I worked with a young woman who was a Nagasaki bomb survivor in her last life. 

Many of us who meditate have intense personal experiences that seem to be remarkably constant, whether one's background is Falun Gong, Hindu, Sufi, or New Age. There is a common factor, and it seems to be transcendental.  I think you're quite right, Dalila, that the spiritual world is totally different from this one and that nobody will care about their origins when they get there.  (This is also true of the world discovered by meditators - not much like the material world except at the earthbound levels.) But in the present moment, there seems to be a great unwillingness to accept anything that cannot be valued in gold, or proven by quantum mechanics, or supported by traditions that must be accepted on faith because nobody remembers how or why they began.

I would like to see a world in which the involvement of the common people in the street would increase, not in practices, but in awareness, and that all people would begin to find their way back to their Creator. Sufsm, the core of Islamic mysticism, offers this, but as yet has not become widely known in the West.  Perhaps the reason for the present mess in the world is to set the stage for precisely that emergence. If so, it will also bring new experiences and new understandings.

Hmm - lotsa words - apologies for running on and on.

peace-
dave



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augoeideian
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #47 - May 12th, 2006 at 5:29am
 
Hello

Dave wrote:
"They are but God's other manifestations and appearances."

Indeed, the teaching of monotheism was for a time when people could not think further than their golden statue on the mantlepiece.

There are many manifestations of God called Gods.

Nice points you made Dalila but to me it excludes evolution.


nice weekend everyone  Smiley
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Rob_Roy
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #48 - May 12th, 2006 at 9:30am
 
"But in the present moment, there seems to be a great unwillingness to accept anything that cannot be valued in gold, or proven by quantum mechanics, or supported by traditions that must be accepted on faith because nobody remembers how or why they began."

I think Quantum Mechanics is actually helping some people by getting them to see beyond duality, think about the future in terms of probability, and otherwise get past the classical mindset imbedded in us since early childhood.

Rob
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muslima23
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #49 - May 12th, 2006 at 10:08am
 
Hello

Dave, i part agree part not.Today i talked to a student from India,i mentioned hinduism where she said some people believe in many gods some,dont.She personally believed in one god but believed just like you said that God manifested him self through other "gods"(which makes her just a polytheist),she also denied reincarnation.One thing that surprised me is that she said that according to what she has heard Muhammed has been mentioned in the hindu scriptures as Mahamat(or something like that),i also noticed that Brahma and Saraswati sounds very similar to Abraham and Sara Smiley

Caryn,i see but you kinda should know that i as a muslim cant believe in evolution Smiley
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SpitfireV2
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #50 - May 12th, 2006 at 11:25am
 
Quote:
Caryn,i see but you kinda should know that i as a muslim cant believe in evolution Smiley


And, thats why religon is dangerous... programmed beliefs... beliefs which are not your own, but forced upon you by your  ancestors... You should really break your bonds, but im guessing if you do, your family would dis-own you. Control... and fear, is the way of islam, and many other religons, but islam is by far the worst off. Science throw's things in your face, which you know are true.. yet, you ar'nt willing to accept them, because someone who died hundreds of years ago said it's not true.If we though that way today, people would be still burned as witches and the earth would still be flat, im just glad some couragous people, broke there shakes, for all our sakes.
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muslima23
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #51 - May 12th, 2006 at 1:53pm
 
Quote:
And, thats why religon is dangerous... programmed beliefs... beliefs which are not your own, but forced upon you by your  ancestors... You should really break your bonds, but im guessing if you do, your family would dis-own you. Control... and fear, is the way of islam, and many other religons, but islam is by far the worst off. Science throw's things in your face, which you know are true.. yet, you ar'nt willing to accept them, because someone who died hundreds of years ago said it's not true.If we though that way today, people would be still burned as witches and the earth would still be flat, im just glad some couragous people, broke there shakes, for all our sakes.


Oh so thats why religion is dangerous? so lets believe in everything that we want...sure but that would be boring since i know the truth is one,and does not correct it self by my own beliefs.

And please,you have no idea about me,i did not accept islam because of my muslim ancestors but because islam was right for me.I lived a life as a non muslim too(atheist) and NO my family didnt even care,since my family is not religious...they rather find it complicated that i am a practicing muslim,but respected me both as an atheist and now as a muslim believer.
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SpitfireV2
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #52 - May 12th, 2006 at 2:04pm
 
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Oh so thats why religion is dangerous? so lets believe in everything that we want...sure but that would be boring since i know the truth is one,and does not correct it self by my own beliefs.

And please,you have no idea about me,i did not accept islam because of my muslim ancestors but because islam was right for me.I lived a life as a non muslim too(atheist) and NO my family didnt even care,since my family is not religious...they rather find it complicated that i am a practicing muslim,but respected me both as an atheist and


The truth corrects itself, indeed it does. For in this mortal coil there is but 1 truth, and all you can do is chip away, until you get close to it.

Islam was right for you... and what exactly, could possibly make you want to become a muslim?... free apple at every mosque service?.
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gretchen
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #53 - May 12th, 2006 at 2:05pm
 
What's wrong with being a peaceful practicing muslim? Not all are extremists and terrorists.
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SpitfireV2
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #54 - May 12th, 2006 at 2:12pm
 
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What's wrong with being a peaceful practicing muslim? Not all are extremists and terrorists.


Nothing much really, i just dont like be classed as a heathen, and seeing people stuck in other people's beliefs. I was'nt making a direct attack on muslim's, but religon as a whole, but i do believe islam is one of the more aggrovating religions.
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gretchen
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #55 - May 12th, 2006 at 2:21pm
 
I don't think anyone wants to be classified as a heathen.
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muslima23
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #56 - May 12th, 2006 at 3:08pm
 
Quote:
The truth corrects itself, indeed it does. For in this mortal coil there is but 1 truth, and all you can do is chip away, until you get close to it.

Islam was right for you... and what exactly, could possibly make you want to become a muslim?... free apple at every mosque service?.


The fact that i,unlike you,found out what islam was about.
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muslima23
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #57 - May 12th, 2006 at 3:11pm
 
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Nothing much really, i just dont like be classed as a heathen, and seeing people stuck in other people's beliefs. I was'nt making a direct attack on muslim's, but religon as a whole, but i do believe islam is one of the more aggrovating religions.


I would not agree,i would say muslims are the people that make you think bad about the religion islam.I would quote the president of my country who said "islam is the best but muslims are far from beeing best"..An average muslim today is like this:...does not care about religion,practices it only on holidays,sees it more as a tradition then religion
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Spitfire
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #58 - May 12th, 2006 at 4:44pm
 
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The fact that i,unlike you,found out what islam was about.


Please, tell me, what islam could possibly offer you... can you honestly believe... the universe was created in 6 days...

islam is just another form of control, i dont need to read up on legal legislation to know, if your sent to jail you loose your freedom. It's exactly the same, except people choose religion, either threw fear, or through lessons which were passed down.

Muslims.. are the instruments of the quran.. just like christians are of the bible, if you subscribe to the rule's.. then you are a representative of them. They are merely ambassodor's of there religion, like people's are of there country. If an american tourist, went to iraq.. i dont think saying 'it was george bushes idea not mine' would cut much slack.
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: The islamic view of afterlife
Reply #59 - May 12th, 2006 at 10:10pm
 
HI Spitfire- long time no see
This thread seems to be degenerating into a discussion about Islam versus "Those other religions" versus "No religion" versus "Christianity" etc.  In that sense, we are all wrong, and all correct, depending on how we look at it. Muhammed came to teach a nation of idol worshippers, literally, just as Jesus came to teach the Roman State and its pantheon of gods. Both brought monotheism to replace the prior ways.  Whether we should try to make Buddhism and Hinduism fit into the same mould is arbitrary, since there are numerous individual Buddhist sects, and Hindu faiths are almost as numerous as the sands of Mother Ganga. I'm not sure that arguing who believes what and why and whether that is "right"  has a great deal of value. We are led into experiences for a reason - perhaps karma, or perhaps because God wants us to learn something, or perhaps because we happen to be at a specific time and place during some phase of the moon.  To argue that one approach to living a good life, perhaps as a Neo-Theo-Herbalist is better than another similar attempt, perhps as a Wiccan, can provide an endless topic of discussion without resolution. But until we can see more than is visible from the everyday viewpoint, we're actually talking with imperfect perception.

As an example, I have a good grasp of basics of Islam, Buddhism, Vedanta, and so on. BUT My personal view of these belief systems has been based on very limited esoteric belief systems within the global confines of these faiths (I have a BS in philosophy, and comparative religion was an interest for me), and I simply don't feel that I can evaluate more than a few core ideas. Not all Muslims are Sufis or Dervi, not all Hindus  would want to follow Nisargadatta Maharaj or Ramana Maharshi, and not all Buddhists would view reality as arising from a creative manifestation of "Mind", and a few might argue with the Dalai Lama's remark, "Buddhism is not for everybody," and his explanation that the wide variety of faiths that we experience is a necessity.

In the end, we are still stuck with efforts to prove all this stuff using tool fashioned from the dust of the everyday world.  Not only is this futile, because we can reach no farther than other heaps of dust, but on our efforts to make clear our specific individual point, we are moving more toward entrenched views and criticism of everything else

While I'm not an atheist, I think that Spitfire has touched on a valid point. Why do we want religious beliefs? How do the benefit us? What leads us to accept his or that view of the spiritual world?

I'd like to suggest that each of us is correct, but that none of us has the whole picture. On that basis, each will experience an afterlife that strongly accords with the kind of beliefs we have. In support of this, notice Bruce's tales of soul retrieval. In each case the soul had become enmeshed into a seemingly valid material world by virtue of simply believing that that was the way that the world is. In the world of everyday life, we are forced to share our reality with others, but in Spirit, we can imagine whatever we wish - and we are all quite capable of creating a fantasy word that can keep us earthbound.

Carrying this one step farther, each religion is going to predispose us to seeing an afterlife that fits that set of religious doctrines. Meditators will recognize that the key to reaching a deeper meditation in which we gain awareness is to allow ourselves to risk discovery of something new, and that requires that we suspend (not abandon nor criticize) our patterns of thinking and believing, and at the same time, that we dedicate ourselves to whatever each of us individually perceives as the "Highest Good" - whatever God seems to be to each of us.

Given this willingness to enter meditation we can start to find significant similarities. Thus, for Sufis, the image of a heart flanked by two wings corresponds to the perception of the Ajna Chakra in the brow experienced by other meditators. The meditation on the heart, both a Sikh and a Sufi technique, can be found in writings about Laya Yoga, or the words of Paramhansa Yogananda, or in Omar Khayyam's poetry is which the experience is compared to the "tinkling of a camel bell" (which is actually quite accurate). We also can find the reluctance of every faith to admit new information, because it would "dilute the Master's words", or some such equivalent thing, depending upon who is talking about what belief system.

Personally, I'm fascinated about Delila's remarks concerning the Djinns, and the expectation of a continuing growth beyond the end of the present life. This kind of informtion is awfully hard to extract from writings of Muslim saints, such as Rumi's poetry, and is not something that I have encountered in the type of meditation with which I'm familiar. However, I am aware of parallels.

With that idea, I'd simply like to suggest that were we to pool our beliefs, instead of trying to compete with them, we might discover that we're all doing the same thing is more or less similar ways, although with widely divergent approaches. That pays off by expanding our understanding.  I don't see much payoff in arguments that deny your truth in favor of mine, or vice versa.

Delila, if you are willing, I'd like to know more about your metaphysical beliefs, perhaps experiences of a spiritual nature etc. I claim that we are all directed into the type of spiritual system that is best for each of us individually - even if that might be as extreme as Spitfire's agnosticism, the "Born Again Christian" perspective, Gold Coast Voudun, or Umbandha and other religions whose pracices focus upon being literally "mounted" (possessed) by spirits.  I'm intensely interested in how this idea feels to you.

PUL to all-
dave








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