Bruce Moen conveniently ignores the astral experiences of adepts like Robert Bruce who contradict his dogmatism and insist that there are a broad range of nonhuman discarnates of varying degrees of power, benevolence, and malevolence.  But in the final analysis, the issue is not the human origin of demons, but their potential to do harm.  

In this respect, Spooky's New Age dogmatism needs to be exposed.   Spooky has not even read Malachi Martin's definitive research on exorcism, and yet, he is happy to offer the false New Age bromide about a consistent link between possession and one's belief system.  Bu Spooky is provably wrong.   Far from originating among Catholics, many possession cases originate among New Agers who imagine the astral realm is safe, and so, unwittingly invite in demons through occult practices.  For example, Robbie's possession inspired the movie "The Exorcist."  Robbie was possessed through the influence of his New Age aunt Harriet who taught him it was safe to contact the dead through a Ouija board.  New Ager Robert Bruce was possessed and, as a result, twice almost murdered his baby. He was frustrated in his attempt to exorcize a demon from a young child; so he invited the demon to possess him instead.  He imagined he could then easily expel the demon later.  He was wrong and his mistake was almost fatal.   Martin encounters a possession case where an inexperienced priest in struck dead by an unseen hand the moment he approaches the bed of the possessed.  You New Agers must desist from imposing your limited experience on other people's encounters with the demonic, whether human or non-human.   The intellectual myopia of the New Age ghetto is truly breath-taking!  I have already described the chilling details of ghastly exorcisms performed by my own family members.  But unlike you New Agers, I don't generalize from my family's experiences and presume to speak for all possession cases.  

Don

Reoverer,

Can't you read? I argued precisely the opposite of your mischaracterization and urged that investigators bypass the question of demonic origin and focus instead on the awesome, even lethal power that some of them display.  As for the messages from Hell scratched on his flesh over time, I have actually seen an eyewitness priest who swears that the messages were clear and ghastly.  So don't simply beleve what you find comfortable.  Keep and open mind and just occasionally come out of the ghetto and breathe the fresh air of honest and open inqiuiry.

Don

Recoverer,

Unlike New Agers, I see no need to prematurely terminate inquiry into that question.  To say that some possessions stem from "Satan' helps little because this term simply means "adversary" and invites questions on the nature of this adversary, whether individual or collective.  New Agers try to create a caricature of Satan that allows them to dishonestly retreat into their well insulated belief system.  I prefer the exhilaration of an honest (if sometimes painful) open-ended quest for truth.

Back to your point about a priest who couldn't read the scratch marks on Robbie's skin, let me quote the definitive source on this issue, Thomas B. Allen, "Possessed: The True Story of an Exorcism," a book based on an eyewitnesses continous diary of the exorcism.  

"Scratch marks would suddenly appear on his chest while nuns were looking on.  They couldn't keep the bed still (p. 33)."  This report establishes the paranormal nature of the blood scratches, but does not specify definite messages.

At other times, the messages scratched in blood were clear: "It was as if scratches were emerging form him, as if something was clawing at him from the inside.  The glistening scratches formed a word: `Saturday' ...Phyllis [Robbie's Mom] began counting how many people she knew who had seen what she and Karl had seen: relatives, friends, ministers, a priest, nurses, nuns (p. 37)."  

Eventually, Robbie's mother, Phyllis, becomes concerned that he has missed too much school:
"She called Robbie over and told him her decision. Robbie looked at her coldly, grimaced for an instant, and opened his shirt.  The scratches said, `No School.'  At another time, when she mentioned school, Robbie held up his wrists.  Scratches outlined a read NO on each wrist (p. 41)."

Don

Hi Jesus recognised demons. He cleansed many people with evil spirits in them ,when he was on the earth, he cleansed one man and he had many demons inside him and Jesus sent the demons into a herd of pigs and they drowned themselves and the man was at peace again. 

There was one man who was screaming and Jesus ordered the evil spirit out of him then he was at peace also,and these were both madmen till Jesus cleansed them God bless juditha                              

Hi Recoverer i dont know if they were earthbound spirits. I just read what Jesus did and in the bible it says they are demons. God bless juditha

Heh heh - Good example, Matthew.

Bruce said much what I have experinced. Con man crap.

But there's more, if we look for it it from the side of the demon, and after all, a little emphathy is appropriate, because demons are also creatures of God, no matter what their nature.

Embodied beings crystallize around an aggregate of circumstances that can persevere under conditions of feedback.  That gives us a huge range of potentially noxious critters, from prions and virii to dinosaurs and even George W Bush or Saddam. Anything with a body innate to its nature is an everyday animal, machine or suchlike.

Beings not embodied do not, of themselves, have the ability to extend their natures into the common space we call "everyday reality". This would require incarnation. So, when Augie has a beast that first sits on her chest, and then joins her and her husband in bed, bruises his hands, AND then dissipates into nothingness,  we must ask how this can be.

Extension into "everyday reality" is a property by which a collection of definitions comes to be associated with a point in space and time in such a way that it interacts causally with other elements of spacetime. Part of this interaction requires a history. Similarly, we can argue from Noether's theorem and parity that history implies a future. These concepts are well supported by quantum theory.

To have a psychic energy materialize into an extended state and then again vanish requires that the "extended reality" must be  alien to our "everyday reality", else it would have history and a future as an extended object.

There is no reason to view our everyday three-space reality as the nec plus ultra of all existence.  I've written a brief note on how to examine 7-space as a normal projection from a 3-space that requires a little meditation and trancework to fully grasp. (It's at www.mbs-hypnoclinic.com stuck in "things to read" section. If you do soul retrieval, you'll recognize that all I've done is to point out some relationshionships amongst dimensions.) This is one explanation of how we can shift our awareness to an alternative state space in which we do not force dependency upon historic or future existence. In trance, we rarely even make an attempt to keep our dimensions in order.  I propose that Augie's "demon" is an energetic construct that is extended only in its own world, which contacts her world, and the world of her husband,  who then tend to bring it into their everyday stream of consciousness as if it were part of the everyday world we all know.

This explanation both allows the being to have an existence, yet places the existence in a different continuum.  Rejection, whether by screaming at it, punching it, or doing other things, pushes it back into its own reality, and excludes it from using the interface with the everydy world. From the side of the being itself, I suspect that it views our reality as a place in which it can project its nature because of a common interface, and its specific manner of presentation may very well be invlved with past karmic attachments of both Augie and her husband, since they are jointly party to its presence.  Experiences in which we shift realities are not extremely common, but they defintely occur. That's the nature of choice.

My advice would be to provide a different "seat" for this being, such as a candle burning between two mirrors that reflect into one another, so that some kind of resonant activity might be supported using the candle flame. Then, talk to it. Ask if it has a name,  and what is the last thing recalled about being in the world.  Ask its purpose, generally involved with staying alive, and how can you help. Suggest going back into the Light, since this is, after all, a creation emanating from God, and thus has a proper place back in the Light. 

The idea of clinging to a sense of evil, malevolence or danger simply transfers your own life energy to the entity, and tends to hold the door open. What is actually best for all parties is to send the thing back to the Light where it will eventually be able to grow, learn and evolve. Who knows - it might come back in the form of a pet, or a friendly wild creature in the garden.

dave

I never denied that "skin messages" might be triggered by hypnosis, though I don't consider Joseph Murphy a credible source and would challenge Matt to find a replication of such writing from a more recent hypnotist. I'm arguing that possession can be a multi-faceted phenomenon traceable to powerful demonic entities, relatively harmless earthbound spirits, and ordinary psychopathology.  In any case, Robbie was not under hypnosis.  Show me an example of an unhypnotized subject who can create coherent messages on his skin simply by willing it.  

Dave blissfully commits the fallacy of hasty generatization based on his own limted experience.  Dave, explain how a confident young priest who believes he is up to the challenge can be struck dead the moment he arrives at the bedside of the possessed.   Put differently, actually read Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" to achieve some balance.  Otherwise, you simply don't know what you are talking about.    As I'm sure you're aware, most reputable hypnotists would sonsider your past life regressions "con man crap" (to use your inflamatory phrase).

Don

Matthew,

I think you come the closest to grasping my intent.  But honest seekers must show more respect for the acknowledged experts in each field.  If the scientific community respected past life regression, I would too.  But I find the contrary studies I have summarized provisionally compelling. I say "provisionally" because I'm always open to compelling counter-research.  Similarly, New Agers need to respect what the best scholarship has found about Gnostic Gospels like the Gospels of Judas, Mary, and Philip.  Too often New Agers ignore the hard work of historical verification and just assume that what supports their preferences must be historically true.  Respect for scholarship sometimes clashes with my own perspectives and this disturbs me, but I still take these clashes seriously.  I'm not urging folks to mindlessly comply with the experts.   But the New Age mentality becomes a Ghetto mentality when expert views are simply ignored.   

In a nutshell, my overall problem is this: I wanted to join the community of astral explorers, but first wanted to reassure myself that I am part of a community of intellectually astute and honest seekers.  That reassurance would motivate me to explore and share with like-minded people.  In fact, I have reluctantly concluded that most astral explorers are anti-intellectual New Age fundamentalists.  That conclusion means that I don't trust their intuitions about their subjective astral experiences.  So my debating is not a mind game; it is a quest to be part of an orientation change of human consciousness towards other diimensions.  Yes, that longing makes me a type of New Ager myself.

So as I promised a while back, I willl soon take my permanent leave from this site.  I am merely waiting to see if Craig has any more theological issues he'd like me to address.  I'm deeply moved by the sincerity of his quest and wish him well, regardless of whether he shifts towards a Christian position.   Others who regularly contact me through private messages have also deeply moved me by the diilgence and honesty of their spiritual quest.   So despite the head-aches of clashing with dogmatic New Agers here, I'm glad I came back.

When I leave (this time for good), I will become more reclusive and diligently practice with RAM's Gateway tapes and the book by Robert Bruce and Brian Mercer, "Mastering Astral Projection."   I had hoped this site could be more of a help than a hindrance to that quest.  So I'm pessimistic about my chances of success.  But the stakes are so high, that I feel compelled to make a more sustained effort.   And if I ever do succeed, I'll briefly drop by to share the news with posters here.

Don