[Roger:] "Some of us grow via suffering and some of us don't.  Some of us become embittered, angry and seriously depressed.  Some of us try to end our suffering thru suicide.  Clearly not a desirable outcome of suffering."
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True, but I look at it this way.   From God's perspective, the value of our freedom is directly proportional to the strength of our contrary inclinations.  If suffering provides no disincentive to turn one's back on God, then of what moral value is our unhindered choice to serve God?  Without suffering, we'd in effect become spiritually "spoiled brats."  Our service to God would become more robotic because of the lack of an incentive to choose otherwise.  If no one became disillusioned with life and God, the spiritual challenge would hardly be genuine or morally adequate.

[Roger:] "I think a case could be made that our very separation from God represents suffering, regardless of the earthly circumstances of our
lives."
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True.  Precisely for that reason the best definition of "Hell" is "a condition of separation from God."  I'm sure that many in Hell experience what they regard as temporary pleasure.  They establish new normals for the relativity of pleasure and pain.  

I like to use an exercise analogy.  When I've had the discipline to establish a vigorous physical fitness program, I feel much more alert and alive than when I was out of shape.  Yet job pressures have often caused my exercise discipline to lapse and then vanish.  Why?  Because I subtly establish a new normal emotional state of being which gradually causes me to lose sight of what I'm missing.  So I get lazy.

[Roger:]  "I also think that just a glimpse of the bliss that God offers, the peace that surpasses all human understanding, would be enough to make us realize that an existence without this, is an existence of suffering.  Once we experience that kind of bliss and peace, why would we ever want to separate from it?  So in that sense, separation IS suffering.  Doesn't matter if we are otherwise comfortable, leading a life of plenty, physically healthy, etc etc.  If we truly grasp what a life with God is really like, anything short of that at least in my mind represents suffering of the highest order."
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That insight rings so-o-o true for my own mystical encounters with God which have provided me with an experience of the sweetness and goodness of God that is a  hundred times more lovingly potent than anything I've ever experienced.   When the experience ends, one feels an intense emptiness due to the contrast with ordinary experience.   The downside is that such encounters can make one like a heroine addict.   Unlike normal erotic highs, there is no analogy in the memory to significantly recreate the mystical experience in the imagination.   So I have developed a craving for a replication of such divine encounters.   I'm amused at Brendan for expressing doubt that he'd like such an experience.  In truth, there is nothing that is even remotely as beautiful and satisfying.   But the later absence of this satisfaction can trigger morose moods and make one second-guess what one really experienced.  

My greatest frustration is that I can't seem to motivate others to pay the price in spiritual discipline to seek out such experiences.   And I don't blame them for their indifference because I can't seem to find the words to express adequately how wonderful such divine encounters can really be.  What makes me sad is that we live in an age of short attention spans.  Church people too tend to need instant gratification and are unwilling to wait patiently on God for long periods of time.  As a result, in my opinion, their best mystical experiences seem to be temporary highs that are analogous to the heights of falling in love, but are a far cry from the intense encounters with God that are possible.   When people ask me if I think they've experienced the same thing, I reply, "If you can even wonder if more loving experiences are possible, you have not experienced the intense grace I've experienced a couple of times in my life."

Don

Don-

When you say " My greatest frustration is that I can't seem to motivate others to pay the price in spiritual discipline to seek out such experiences", are you saying that there is a direct linkage between spiritual discipline and having a spiritually enthralling experience?

I wonder about that.  Sometimes these soul stirring experiences come about quite spontaneously.  I know the one time it happened to me, I was not doing anything in particular out of the ordinary. 

And yet to this day, that experience that maybe lasted 30 seconds or so will never be forgotten.  It was a feeling of such overwhelming peace that I wanted it to last forever.  As you say, words cannot begin to describe it. 

On a related subject.....suppose that you are right that suffering is an important ingredient in becoming more spiritually aware.  That raises an interesting question- a life cut short in childhood, or a full life led without any real suffering....in other words, any life that for whatever reason did not contain the necessary ingredients for spiritual growth....doesn't that at least suggest that one earthly life is vastly insufficient?

I'm not a proponent of reincarnation but neither do I rule it out.  Truth is, I just don't know.  But if earthly life is so rich in opportunities to grow, it seems to me, to paraphrase a famous person, "it is no more surprising to be born many times than to be born just once."

ps to Spice- thanks for your post.  Sounds like a magnificent experience.  It would be nice to have a thread devoted to these kinds of events.