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Hi Matthew,

I'm going to start a new thread that might address this issue to a certain extent.

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This is my thought, too.

Pertaining to one of your other posts that I read somewhere, I think that once we are able to see that there is beauty within every imperfection, then we are able to experience the human perspective of the fullness of the oneness that each of us is within the whole of creation. 

That your karma is my karma and vice versa might be an example of this understanding.

Love, Kathy

I am sorry if my thread/inquiry has created more questions than answers.  It may be that given the limits of what we know, and of logic, that the questions on incarnation can not be answered.

As for nothing existing:  I think therefore I am. You, recoverer, perceive, you think, you know.  Why?  It just is.  The basic existence of all the universe starts with that statement.

M

Rondelle:

I started reading ACIM recently, and I must state that I disagree with you.

One of the course's main premises is that time is unreal, therefore, everything that happens within time is also unreal. It also understands that some people will make a big issue of reincarnation, and try to determine whether or not the course is legitimate according to their preconceived idea as to whether or not reincarnation is real.  Considering how intelligent people can be so diametrically opposed on this issue, it is best that an issue that really isn't all that important when it comes to a person's spiritual growth, doesn't become the basis for dismissing the course.

It isn't Jesus' fault that people in the physical make such an issue of the subject of reincarnation. If he spoke either way, a lot of people would unfortunately be deterred  from reading the course.

If a person reads the course with the mindset, either conscious or hidden, of being opposed to it, then he'll  (or she'll) find reasons to dismiss it.

On the other hand, if he forgets about his preconceived ideas, and sees if what the course states makes sense, chances are he'll see differently.

If a person believes that God, despite his infinite love and wisdom, has set things up so that many souls get sentenced to hell for all of eternity, they might have a hard time accepting the course.



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Matthew,

You may be generating more questions than answers, but your posts here are productive because you generally engage these questions with sound logic.   I'd be interested in how you'd respond to two challenges: (1) the notion that your monistic view of reality is neither true nor false, but meaningless; (2) the case against the New Age connection between the alleged timelessness of astral realms and the possibility of parallel incarnations.  In this post, I will limit myself to (2).

The notion of multiple parallel incarnations depends on the logically incoherent doctrine of timeless astral realms.   This doctrine excludes sequential events that would be essential to postmortem evolutionarly progress.  Once experience becomes sequential, it becomes subject to time.   This does not mean that the exoerience of time remains identical to our earthly temporal experience.   Thus, many years of astral projection teach Swedenborg:

“Even though things keep happening in sequence and progressing in heaven the way they do in the world, still angels [= discarnate humans] have no notion of the concepts of time and space... The reason angels do not know what time is (even though everything for them moves along in sequence just the way it does in our world...) is that in heaven there are no years or days, but only changes changes of state (HH 162-163).”.  

Astral adept Robert Bruce concurs but speaks in terms of occasionally compressed time in the astral planes.  How can you disregard this independent confirmation from the direct experience of astral adepts with very different metaphysical outlooks?

The logical incoherence of the doctrine of timeless astral realms is illustrated by the Seth entity’s self-contradictory reasoning in "Eternal Validity of the Soul" (151-152), Seth says, "There is no time schedule, and yet it is very unusual for an individual to wait for anything over three centuries between lives, for this makes the orientation very difficult, and the emotional ties with the earth have become weak."  But Seth also assumes that time is irrelevant for entities between lives.  And the earth
ties can only become gradually weakened if there is in fact a passage of time!

There is a significant contradiction between Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe in their treatment of parallel incarnations.  Bruce claims to be a parallel incarnation frm the same Disk Self as Robert. But Robert is astrally informed that he has only one parallel incarnation--a female one.  He is also told that "she would seem like a long-lost sister (UJ 174)."  Bruce reports no such sense of intimacy in his earthly meeting with Robert.  Robert's daughter, Laurie, is the President of the Monroe Institute.  She told Roger that her father was in fact no longer making appearances to astral travelers.  She directed this comment to claims of ongoing astral contacts with her father.  She and her TMI colleagues are the most likely to know the truth in this regard but as Roger has said, it would be great to get her to clarify her assertion.

Don

By the way, Don

You actually do have an open minded view of christianity, and as such, it must be horrible to read so much concurrence on the monistic view as you called it, which makes life overall seem meaningless.  As such, your input is always appreciated, because many want to know that side of the coin.   I think many "new agers" would say that what you see as meaningless has a meaning ultimately of PUL.  That love is what we are all meant to see, and truly express. 

I haven't had enough mystical experience to say, but I'm moving the PUL way myself until I get more data.  You even quoted from Paul I believe who talked about elevating one's thoughts, aspirations, etc.  In some ways, if you can't attain instant karma or PUL, then trying to is the best you can do.


M

Matthew wrote,

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Dear Matthew,

Quite the contrary, life is realized to be infinitely meaningful and joyful, precisely because All the Cosmos is One, and precisely because the relative 'subjectiveness' of reality allows for the freedom of the spirit (ie. of each & all souls) to explore and experience reality with a unique perspective.

This is exactly as God (the Oneness) intended, for it is the basis of the purpose of Creation. A joyful, loving exploration of existence, and of the infinite possibilities, worlds, perspectives for this.

Matthew, it is very interesting what you're currently experiencing. Because when seen from a higher perspective, the Oneness of it all gives infinitely (quite literally) more joy, as does the freedom of individual creativity and expression, gives infinitely (again quite literally) greater purpose and meaning to it all.

And yet, you appear to struggle with depression when the cause is for Joy, and meaninglessness when the cause is for Purpose. I say this is particularly interesting, because from my observation and experience, what you are experiencing, is the deliberate swing of the pendulum from one end to the other - to gain keenest insights, understanding and mastery into various issues, as part of the learning process the individual often chooses to apparently begin with the opposite viewpoint, observes a internal dissatisfaction (or 'depression' or 'meaninglessness') that is indicative of a counter-truth with regards to his own nature, soul and truth.

Similarly, certain individuals choose to create negative karma, and in the balancing of that negative karma (the pendulum swings to the other end), and they experience a powerful learning and evolution in that area. For instance, the reformed criminal is particularly or especially understanding and compassionate, for both the perpetrator and victim, and has the strongest motivation to assist them.

In the Clarification work of Byron Katie, correctly applying the TurnAround always results in a joy that is directly equivalent of the earlier depression that was indicative of the false idea or false viewpoint (ie. false to, or against, the individual's own nature, soul or truth) that caused the difficulty, sense of depression, and so on.

And so it is here with you, Matthew. Your personal breakthrough in this regard, will consequently be of untold value when you are therefore able to assist others to break through for themselves, in similar issues or crises. In this case, of the Oneness giving infinite Joy, and of the freedom of soul giving infinite purpose and meaning.

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Contrary, contrary. The illusory or transient part, is only the form with which the essence underlies. The part that is *real*, is your connection, relationship and love that the forms are able to allow you to gain for yourself - the love for your son and family, your work, your interactions with others. It is the essence, the evolution, the love, that is the true purpose of all of these, that makes them completely real, meaningful.

The form serves the essence. The physical or manifested serves the spiritual. The body serves the soul. The interactions serve the relationship. The relationships serve the Love.

Merging into 'pure perception with God', or losing individuality, as the eventuality of existence, is one of the common misconceptions for many. How can you return to God when you have never left God? And how can you possibly ever leave God, when by definition God is the Essence, Totality and Simultaneity of All the Cosmos?

It is as if the hand fears merging with the body and losing it's individuality, while in truth, the body experiences itself as the totality, yet simultaneously the individuality, of all it's parts. Including as the silly hand that whose fear is but a false idea (false evidence appearing as real). For the hand will never lose its individuality, just as the body has never lost its universality. Indeed, the universality requires the individuality, and vice-versa. And both will exist simultaneously as One, forever.


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Ahh, but therein lies the beauty and joy of it all. Because the absolute, or 'sum of all perspectives', depends on the relative, or 'individual perspectives', what this translates to, is that the Universe is a joyful, participatory experience, in which each and every being matters! The greatest purpose and meaning behind existence, can only exist when there is free will and infinite possibilities. It is God is enjoying Him/Her/ItSelf with the experience as an infinitum of diverse Beings, unique perspectives, and unique explorations of existence. The free will of each being, is therefore the free will of God. Can this get any more 'absolute'? Tis the Divine beauty of it all.

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(Edited after initial post)
On free will giving greater purpose and meaning. How meaningful would it be if an individual is forced to help others solely out of threat of punishment? As compared to say, if he helped others solely out of compassion and love.

Imagine if a man could freely rape and kill everyone else in the world without any punishment whatsoever, even including karmic consequence; and yet should he chooses instead (ask yourself the question, if you were that man... and only your own answer, not the answers of others, is meaningful to you) to respect, care for them, and help them evolve in joy, ie. he chooses to love them, simply out of his true nature (which is always determined by free will, see here), simply because that is what he *truly wants*. Therein lies the true beauty, purpose and meaning of existence and free will.

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If there are 'absolute', pre-determined answers for everyone, which denies the reality of free will and unique perspectives, then there would be little meaning or purpose of that individual's existence. For the individual/part serves the universal/collective, every Being (or 'little self') serves his/her/its GodSelf - the Oneness that is manifested as All the Cosmos.



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Right, Kathy. It's not at all depressing when you realize the truth that you're far from being 'merely a probe'. The depression, as always (ie. as with all depression or suffering), is indicative of a false idea. That is because the probe, or body, is always a vehicle for something greater, the essence behind it. Therefore, the probe itself is a form, and the true essence of the form, of the probe, is the greater being behind it. The probe is therefore not the probe, but really the being who sent it.

Therefore, you are greater than who you think you are (the incarnated personality, the individual, etc), you are in reality the higher self, the oversoul/Disc, the GodSelf (manifesting Yourself simultaneously as All the Cosmos).


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The 'moral' uplifting feeling or love, the evolution and assistantiality, will come in when you (give yourself the willingness to) recognize the greater context by which your contribution to reality exists in. It is as if by itself, the mechanical rotation of the harddisk seems meaningless (possibly even depressing!), but when it understands the greater context of the functioning of the entire computer, it is a joyful, meaningful, loving (Oneness) act.


In regards to the above discussion then, Hilarion speaks of this when he says the following.

Hilarion on "Universal Laws" audio CD-Rom :

"When taken to the higher, vibrational level, they become as if, the very Laws of Creation themselves, of the way in which, the matter, energy, interactions between them, ability for them to create purpose, to manifest Destiny, and eventually, return Love to God, actually then, is the path then created. As if those Laws themselves allow this."


Matthew, I will be sending you a private message.

Dear Matthew,

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I posted on Kardec's thread on Reincarnation :
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Basically, my take on your question as per your initial post, can be understood from these materials. May I invite you to have a complete read (both links)?

I read your links Kyo, thank you.  I suppose that someone who causes harm and is unrepentent, can still incarnate by your understanding from a lower plane or vibration or be pulled to the earth plane.

In the model of others on this board, these souls on death of the physical body would enter where their minds left off - in a hell of their own making.  Getting out of there to reincarnate would seem unlikely.  In your model of reincarnation, it seems souls are drawn back to the earth plane from all stages of spiritual evolution.  This is, quite different from other New Age beliefs - unless I misunderstand your link.

My issue with reincarnation is the notion of memory being an integral part of one's soul.  In the description of the philosophy in your link, you would say that memory was likely related only to personality or ego, which we shed, but not to the soul or essence (or am I putting words in your mouth here?).  I, Matthew have a core perception or essence, and yes some of it may have nothing to do with my memories and experiences, but much of it does.  Wipe out, even temporarily my past experiences, and I do not believe we would have the same Matthew.  Perception is direct, yes, but understanding comes with pure perception and the integration of experience.

My greater self, to which there is always a connection may retain past life memories, and in pointing to this, you may say that understanding is possible by finding your "greater self"/disc...
I understand the concept, but for most of the billions on the earth plane, few actually feel they have this connection.

So I am interested Kyo, in your take on my initial postulated example.

Matthew