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Incarnation (Read 37667 times)
DocM
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Incarnation
Mar 7th, 2006 at 10:43am
 
We hear of people, souls choosing to incarnate, to accomplish a specific task, or help others.  These choices sound quite deliberate.  However, we can find many people over the world who seem to have anger, hatred in them.  They may have committed crimes or unspeakable acts.  When interviewed both by the lay press and psychologists, in some of the worst cases, the people appear unremorseful.

Now follow the trend of thought here.  One almost assumes that in order to reincarnate, you are going from a higher spiritual plane.  I would ask Bruce and others, is that really the case (if anyone knows)?  It is not difficult to find some of these seemingly heartless, "evil" characters.  You would think that their actions would consign them to a hell of their own making.  But then, again follow the trend of thought; how did they get here?  Where were they prior to becoming incarnate?  If on a higher plane, why descend to a lower level of love and understanding?  If on a hellish plane - is that possible?  Does one incarnate from any level?  

In trying to understand incarnation, one may say "ah but there are purposes you and I are not privy to," etc. etc.  But the law of cause and effect (Karma) is still present.  So how does the worst of humanity become incarnate, and where are they coming from? 
M
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betson
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #1 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 11:23am
 
In part, DocM,
From  the angry spiritual seekers I've known and once was, I would say that some feel blind-sided by new challenges while trying to resolve previous problems. Yes, we're not given more than we can handle, but we could get overly-stuck on a problem,
thinking we have to solve it ourselves ( thru lack of faith in Spiritual Guidance,) and then be unready for the next or over-lapping ones. Then they/we may act out negatively.
I believe there is a 'straight and narrow' path set up to give us the most learning and the most reward, but our free will that makes wrong turns possible could get us into such frightening situations that we lash out in fear and anger.
Harder to prove would be
the idea that we come here from a variety of previous incarnations in various environments and are not fully cognizant of the challenges  21st C. Earth. I've read on these boards or in Bruce's books that some people recall amphibious lives. Personally I cannot rid myself of a memory that has me complaining:  'You want me to go there?!  They have to spend so much energy on sheltering themselves!' [with those clothes and buildings.]
Then also I believe, there are the Judases, here to do a job for some unknown Plan or Balance.
All the above would have the souls as underlyingly good. In the overview we're told Good and Evil are one. But that doesn't help when you're face to face with 'Judas', I realize.
bets
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare
 
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DocM
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #2 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 11:48am
 
Yes, Bets,

See it is inconceivable to me that the "Judas," as you call the unremorseful character in our real world will die, and laugh and say "I'm glad I played my part, now I'll go to a higher plane."

No, by all cosmoethical rights, that person will go to a plane set by his/her thought, which most of us would call a hell.  How long will they be there?  Did they incarnate knowing that outcome?  Or, as I asked previously could a spirit from one of these low planes incarnate as easily as one from Focus 27?

M
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Bud_S
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #3 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:19pm
 
Why is one plane higher and another lower?  They are just different.  I think we have higher energy than the spirit plane, though it may vibrate at a higher frequency.  I'm not so sure playing the villain on earth is anything more than being the murderer in a school play.  I don't think it has much impact in the whole scheme of things.  If one considers the zillions of beings past and present (include critters & plants), the evildoers are nothing more than another form of noise in the experience.  (btw, I've got a few evil trees in the woodlot, they're not just in LOTR)  If you subtract out the throw-backs in human experience who are merely reverting back to a former animal instinct (animals seems cruel, but they are not bound by morals- lump in here crimes of passion and post-partem depression murders and the like), the numbers are insignificant aren't they?  Maybe the truly evil characters are required to provide an experience desired by the victims?  After all, some of these guys say god told them to do it.  Maybe it really happened that way.  (that doesn't change the deserved trip to the gallows, or whatever your respective country dishes out).  Or perhaps the victims are required to provide the experience for the evildoer.  For all we know, this is a pact made between victim(s) and perp before they were born, to share some wild ride.
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DocM
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #4 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:47pm
 
Interesting thoughts, Bets,

But of one thing I'm certain, and that is, that we are our thoughts.  Not the rational brain that Rondele mentions on another thread today, but our thoughts and general state of mind.

Thus, I agree that good and evil are like yin and yang, essential for the play of life.  But I disagree that those who committ evil acts and are unrepentant are going to go to any place other than where there pre-mortem thought takes them. 

As for the notion of higher or lower planes...this may be an arbitrary assignment.  What seems clear is that like attracts like, and that those who have not known or shown love are reported to see little else (and therefore may cling to the earth plane), while those who have can see people of lower vibration who may not be able to see them. 

If the point of existence is to learn of our relationship with God and pure unconditional love, than there are, as my friend Kyo points out, paths that lead in that direction that may have to do with ethical action, and paths that lead away from that understanding.   Perhaps, the path for all is eventual success in this task.  Yet I would not assume that the evil-doer will shed his/her mask, laugh and say "I'm glad I did my part in this cosmic play!" as he/she merges back with the divine.  Eventually, through a difficult road this may happen, but I, like John Lennon don't buy into Instant Karma.

Matthew
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wade
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #5 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 1:22pm
 
hey guys. I look at this as a simple positive and negative look. I worte a god theory at 22 and wished it was published or never lost. From what I understood is that earth is the rykers island of learning. In my younger years I have alot of bad trees but it took those seeds to realize the right path. As per the bad ones I agree they usually say god told them to do it. In feeling and BELIEVING that god told them to do it I would think that they in fact would go to heaven although a rough transition it would be. I used to believe you would go to hell if you committed suicide and when the time came I didnt care where I went just not here. Now I believe if I commit suicide I will go to heaven still which to me is even a bigger responsibility, although I would get sent back most likely. I think bruce explains it best in his books which I would highly reccomend reading. All in all depending on your beliefs you will go where you believe you deserve to go. Theres always us, helpers, and retrievals to help them out of hell...
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recoverer
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #6 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 1:35pm
 
On the one hand one has the childish egotistical part of one's mind. It's self centered, irrational, irreverant, doesn't care what's true, and doesn't care about anyone else.

On the other hand we have our higher self which connects us to God, love and higher reasoning.

Inbetween the two we have our conscious mind, and one of our challenges while down here is learning to listen to our higher self, rather than to our childish egotistical mind.

In order for a physical incarnation to work, we need to forget for a little while who we really are.  Sometimes, to a limited extent, we'll backslide, if we listen to our ego too much.

Why have the childish ego at all? Partially because this is our way of exploring the creative potential of our minds/being. There may be other ways. Also, if God enforced a bunch of limitations on the creative aspect of our being, there wouldn't be enough freedom for our creative aspect to manifest.  We're given the freedom and opportunity to ascend to our own greatness in our own way.


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juditha
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #7 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 2:36pm
 
Hi Iread in Doris Stokes the mediums book that there is a lowest plane were people go . They are people like hitler and those who are really evil.But they can be saved because the spirits come down from the highest plane and open there arms and they say who wants to be saved.She said some of them are so evil they refuse to be saved . Those who want to be saved the high spirits take them up to learn remorse and love . Ive wandered sometimes why do these people reincarnate .perhaps they are given a second chance on earth to love there fellow man and if they fail perhaps they have to do it again until they do learn love . Im probably wrong but its just a thought .God bless juditha
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recoverer
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #8 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 2:50pm
 
The below makes sense to me and matches what I have read in sources that feel genuine to me.

Quote:
Hi Iread in Doris Stokes the mediums book that there is a lowest plane were people go . They are people like hitler and those who are really evil.But they can be saved because the spirits come down from the highest plane and open there arms and they say who wants to be saved.She said some of them are so evil they refuse to be saved . Those who want to be saved the high spirits take them up to learn remorse and love . Ive wandered sometimes why do these people reincarnate .perhaps they are given a second chance on earth to love there fellow man and if they fail perhaps they have to do it again until they do learn love . Im probably wrong but its just a thought .God bless juditha

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DocM
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #9 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 3:05pm
 
The question is then, if a soul is retrieved from a hell, they should have made a fundamental change toward love and God.  Only then could they leave the "lower realm."  Ok.  Then, if through grace and their own change in belief they leave the hell, why would they incarnate and then committ atrocities and hatred (or be given the chance to)? 

In other words, pick an unremorseful serial killer.  To tell me that he/she was previously a Hitler who appealed to God's grace, saw the light then was reincarnated and followed the wrong path again seems a bit twisted.  If someone is saved from a hell of their own making.  They may want to give something back, guide others out, etc.  They certainly would not want to go back to earth and enact horrible acts or crimes. 

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starstream
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #10 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 3:18pm
 
Hi,
perhaps its terrible acts that truly evil people do,which make the average person stop,think and take stock.
We all live in the big picture.
Not so long ago in the UK a 14 yr old coloured lad  was murdered because he had a white girlfriend.His mother was on TV asking for people to pray and show compassion for her sons murderers.
I would in no way emulate the murderers,but I felt truly humbled by the mothers reaction and if I could achieve a fraction of her courage and strength,I would be very proud.
I very much doubt,that I was the only viewer to feel that way.
Its a terrible price but some good can come out of any situation.
Perhaps its the paths that souls who do evil take,which show the vast majority the right paths to take.
just a thought.

Vicky
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Spitfire
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #11 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 3:24pm
 
Perhaps, we choose a life which is difficult - in order to test ourself. We find out, it was to much - and something goes really bad. We pay the price, which is going to a hellish dimention. The question is, what will be our reward for completeling such a life?

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Bud_S
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #12 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 3:29pm
 
Quote:
Perhaps, we choose a life which is difficult - in order to test ourself. We find out, it was to much - and something goes really bad. We pay the price, which is going to a hellish dimention. The question is, what will be our reward for completeling such a life?



greater consciousness.
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Spitfire
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #13 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 3:39pm
 
Quote:
greater consciousness.  


and how is consciousness measured?
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Bud_S
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Re: Incarnation
Reply #14 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 3:53pm
 
Quote:
and how is consciousness measured?


the number, depth, and variety of connections to the consciousness of other souls out there.  The biological analogy would be Einstein's brain.  What makes his brain different?  Not the number of neurons, it has about the same as everyones.  What's different is there are more connections between the neurons (more dendritic connections allowing more information flow), therefore, he was smarter.
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