Assuming the Yahwist "you only go 'round once" paradigm?
Many people (myself included) might look at a Down Syndrome case - or a poor kid in some hell-hole like Lagos, Nigeria who will likely die young never having known affluence or perhaps even pleasure - or an African "AIDS orphan" who will die a miserable death by the time he's 5 years old - or a promising young musician who develops schizophrenia at the age of 19, and spends the rest of his life in day treatment programs, doped up on Haloperidol - and say, "well... barring reincarnation, what did this person do to deserve their ONE AND ONLY chance at the freedom and excitement of Earth life as a human being f**ked up like that? And how gruesomely unfair that this is their ONLY shot at life on this potentially awesome world, and they got gypped through no fault of their own..?"
And what about that 10-month-old baby who just had his arms chopped off at the shoulder by his sicko mom? (Heard the news on the radio, didn't get the rest of the details but I heard it today.) Will he NEVER know what it feels like to be a man with two good arms? The Yahwist paradigm flatly states:
"YES."
But I'm digressing here. My main question is, in a "you only go 'round once" reality... where do the WINNERS in life come from?
The millionaires who had the innate DRIVE to propel them to the top... the "fortunate sons" born into wealth (think George W. Bush)... military geniuses like Alexander the Great, or Napoleon... people gifted with the art of controlling others, like Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam Hussein... the gifted star athletes... the talented artists/musicians/writers (who most importantly, got their "big break" - for every one in the arts who becomes a success, there are probably 10 of equal or greater merit who go nowhere due to simple bad luck. For every rock star you have about 1000 "didn't-make-its"...)
Where did Hitler come from? What did he do RIGHT, to be given the frankly GREAT run he had (until he messed it up by starting WW2?)
If we only "go 'round once" - perhaps the winners are the STRONGER spirits, who shove their way into the "best slots" for their earthly incarnations? And when you see a poor man... a retard... a cripple... or even a grossly homely individual for that matter...
Are you looking at a "garbage spirit", a weakling?
If we "only go 'round once" I'd say this is inescapable, no?
Therefore, unless "God" is a monster, there HAS to be reincarnation, for the sake of BALANCE... right? That those who were on the bottom, can have a taste of the top... and those who were on top (and ABUSED their privilege) can see what it's like to be on the bottom.
Not to mention PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (what kind of insane cosmic order would dole out gold to some, and sh!t to others without regard as to whether they'd EARNED it???)
If you can find any logical holes in my argument, I dare you to find 'em...

B-man

B-man,

As I demonstrate in my "Spitfire" thread, even the "Yahwist" perspective implies that our souls preexist.  Apart from that, "Yahwism" teaches that there are many levels of heaven which might enable the victims you cite to be compensated for their earthly suffering and then to evolve towords their temporarily delayed purpose.  Also, note the value of suffering explained n my "Spitfire" thread.  But even apart from this do not assume that the lives of the very poor and Down Syndrome victims lack spiritual value.

Don
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I think that explanation rings pretty hollow for your typical "loser", Don. Why would "God" give them such a meager "payback"?
And we don't CHOOSE OUR OWN purpose then? (Are you telling me "God" is a communist?)
Although it might give a smug sense of satifaction to the "winners." That would explain George W. Bush's "cosmology" pretty well, wouldn't you say? (Or Pat Robertson's for that matter. Now THERE'S a "fat cat" if ever I saw one...)

B-man

Ah .. suffering on Earth must be one of the most complex issues that is misunderstood.

My thoughts are ..

First of all there is Karma and indeed we choose this particular life to resolve our (not Gods) Karmic issues so eventually we learn to break out of the wheel of Karma and therefore not need to come back to Earths classroom.

There are levels of suffering; it may be a Karmic working out but I believe that the things that hurt us, confuse us, make us sick and suffering, are sent with love from our higher souls.  These trials make us go deep inside ourselves to search for the reason why and although we still may not understand why, we are seeking and our spirits are growing strong.

If nothing hurt us we would become complacent and stagnant and even our spirits would be forgotten for awhile.

It is human nature that our spirits grow strong through pain. Pain is a strong lesson.

These souls that choose the path of hardship and suffering are evolved and are serious about advancing their spirits therefore one could say that they are in fact the WINNERS.

They knew it would not be easy from the start, sometimes it can be so painful it cuts like a hot knife and it can last a lifetime, but if it is understood that it is sent with love for spiritual growth one can surrender trying to fight the negativity and in saying thank you for my burdens I am not forgotten but loved, the spirit will soar and the burdens will not seem as a negative attack on the person but as from a parent who loves their child.

This does not mean to say that if a soul does not suffer it is not growing or advancing; there are many paths, mansions and dimensions.

We mustnt 'blame God' for we are to become like God.  We create our own reality and we judge ourselves.  Our spiritual growth on this Earth plane determines what we have to live with; that is live with ourselves; in the spiritual realm once we pass over.  The Spirit does not advance in the spirit world until the Karmic wheel is broken and that is why we come back to Earth.  The thing is to remember why we came back and where we are from, matter clouds our memory, and hence suffering and hence being at this site right now!

Love and Freedom 

B-Man

I think one of our main "faults" as human beings in this physical existence is that we tend to look at this life like it is the 'whole picture'. I've been guilty of this, and I've had to remind myself that this physical existence is but a moment in the eternity that awaits me.   I agree that many people (more than not) have been born with 2 strikes against them, and granted it doesn't seem "fair" at all.   But what is "fair" really?  This leads me back to Don's point... if our sufferings on earth lead us to greater spiritual growth in the afterlife, then is the crippled person at a disadvantage to you or me?
Scripture teaches of the many blessings that will come to those who have suffered on earth (Beatitudes- Matt 5:2-10 and countless other passages).

We could go around in circles about human suffering and equality in the eyes of God because you have many reservations about God (you've made that very clear); but you posed a question, so I'm trying to give you my spin on it.
The way I see it is consciousness is a tricky thing, and almost proof in itself that there is something beyond this physical existence.  If not, why would we need such a high level of consiousness?  
We clearly don't need it to be able to survive on earth (remember the amoeba?).  That being said, if there is something beyond...then who or what created it?  It must have been created for a purpose.  To me, there is no other logical explanation.

Back to my first point, this life isn't it...it's not the big picture....just a part of it.  We tend to think this life is all we get because we get so caught up in life's obligations--work, school, bills, cars (breaking down, ha ha), etc.  We become so tangled up in ourselves and what we perceive as being important that we forget how insignificant it all really is in the scheme of things (winners, losers...whatever).  It all seems even more trivial when we have eternity to think about!

If there is no God, the children starving and dying of aids in Africa, the crippled man, the kid with Down's Syndrome....and so on, are just pitifull, unlucky victims of circumstance.  You want to blame God, and call him unjust for this. But wouldn't life for those poor souls be much worse if there were no afterlife and no God to show them love and mercy in His Kingdom?  I would much rather believe that there is a loving God who knows their suffering now and is waiting to bless them for it in Heaven.  Please correct me if I have misunderstood your poinf of view.

As for reincarnation:
I don't think we are able to come back again and again.  From what the Bible teaches, there is no need to come back.  Once we leave this earth, our purposes have been served.  I'll have to lean more toward Don's way of thinking in that there are different levels of heaven for the different levels of spiritual growth.  It would make sense that we continue to grow spiritually in the afterlife.

Take this reply for what it's worth.  I like the fact that you are asking...it means you're searching.  

Much love,
Bug

B-man wrote:

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Very true. Pure material gain IMHO is the answer to nothing. It really is a hollow quest. This is evident to me by the modern day celebs. So much money!, too much money. On the whole they never seem truly happy and this isnt just press hounding.

Reading an article about Kylie the other day made me smile. It came across that she is so intrigued and interested by the work the nurses are doing for her during her illness that it has made her look into the field. What could someone as rich as Kylie gain from this, surely its not a profitable career move?! 

Im not saying she is going to become a doctor. But she may have noticed the nurses experiencing something more fulfilling than her current life can offer.

I suppose it depends what you like to eat when you want a "taste at the top".

After 20 odd years I often still cant believe the sky looks so amazing and am really happy to be alive to see it. I guess some people are easily pleased.   

Blink,

Nicely put!   From a Christian perspective, true enlightenment can begin with an understanding of why the very poor, the neglected, the mentally and physically challenged, and even those with Down Syndrome can be "winners" in God's eyes and will eventually experience themselves as "winners", if not in this life, then in the next.  St. Paul learned by direct experience that God delights in perfecting His strength through our weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9).

Thanks,
Don

Hi  Ive always believed no matter what life throws at you all you can do is keep trying.Ithink there will always be winners and losers and whatever we are all of us have moaned about something in our lives. My grandmother told me that we all have to suffer at some stage in our lives some more than others bit thats how it is and always will be . The trouble with this world is there is to much greed  selfishness and violence and not enough love. And its getting worse all the time . I dread to think what its going to be like by the time my grandchildren grow up.All this world needs is more love surrounding it then we would all be alright. God bless you