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Will spiritual things ever be proven by science? (Read 8695 times)
mattb1000
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Re: Will spiritual things ever be proven by scienc
Reply #15 - Feb 17th, 2006 at 11:17am
 
Another aspect, which intrigues me greatly when looking at someone's personal truth or belief, is how much (or how little) conscious intention is used to produce the result needed to make the result resonate with the individual's reality.

Building on Wiseman and he's ability to achieve something that sits well with his believe system we can look at another experiment which produced a similar affect. However, like I said at the start, the intrigue for me lies in the question of how much conscious intention is used to achieve what is expected by the viewer.

This is a watered down version of an article that can be found here.

http://www.sheldrake.org/controversies/wiseman.html

The experiment is based on whether dogs know when an owner is coming home conducted by Rupert Sheldrake. Sheldrake had managed to get some pretty amazing results so it was only natural that a more sceptical person should try the experiment too...



Quote:
When my experiments with the dog Jaytee were first publicized in Britain in 1994, journalists sought out a skeptic to comment on them, and Richard Wiseman was an obvious choice...

...With the help of his assistant, Matthew Smith, he did four experiments with Jaytee, two in June and two in December 1995, and in all of them Jaytee went to the window to wait for Pam when she was indeed on the way home. As in my own experiments, he sometimes went to the window at other times, for example to bark at passing cats, but he was at the window far more when Pam was on her way home than when she was not...

...When Wiseman's data were plotted on graphs, they showed essentially the same pattern as my own. In other words Wiseman replicated my own results...

...I was astonished to hear that in the summer of 1996 Wiseman went to a series of conferences, including the World Skeptics Congress, announcing that he had refuted the 'psychic pet' phenomenon. He said Jaytee had failed his tests because he had gone to the window before Pam set off to come home...

...In September 1996 I met Wiseman and pointed out that his data showed the same pattern as my own, and that far from refuting the effect I had observed, his results confirmed it. I gave him copies of graphs showing may own data and the data from the experiments that he and Smith conducted with Jaytee. But he ignored these facts. He reiterated his negative conclusions in a paper he submitted to the British Journal of Psychology ...

...I confess that I am amazed by his persistence in this deception.


So, as you see from this article, the boundaries of intention are unclear when expanding the critical reviews of Wiseman to two experiments.

The ability of the conscious to resonant with similar concepts, beliefs, feelings is truly amazing to me. Bruce seems to experience this resonance of the similar/familiar during his travels. Max's Hell seems a good example of this to me.
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The Road goes ever on and on&& Down from the door where it began....&&Where many paths and errands meet.&& And whither then? I cannot say.&&&&&&
 
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Leilah
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Re: Will spiritual things ever be proven by scienc
Reply #16 - Feb 17th, 2006 at 6:32pm
 
Chumley,

I say no because it’s simply impossible. I mean, how could something as subjective as “spiritual things” be proven by science? If anything, the only things scientists will be “proving” are the experiences of their volunteers and/or their own. But that still wouldn’t do much. All they’d be proving is that “yes, in our experience we have come to the conclusion that (enter spiritual thing here) exist”. But that just doesn’t cut it for everyone! Such things cannot be set in stone. IMO -as far as spiritual matters go, the only person you can prove anything to is yourself.
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Re: Will spiritual things ever be proven by scienc
Reply #17 - Mar 11th, 2006 at 3:54pm
 
Question: "Will spiritual things ever be proven by science?"

I have already proved some of it to myself. I continue to pursue the rest and probably will continue until the end of this lifetime. My pursuit is what brought me here.

Now, the real question is will someone ever achieve proving it to the scientifically minded masses? Will they ever listen? I'm reminded of a saying that I have come to believe in wholeheartedly because I have lived it over and over. It goes something like this; "For the skeptic no amount of proof will ever be enough and for the believer no amount of proof is necessary..."

I have been a spiritual truth seeker for more than the last 20 years (I started young) and during that time I have tried using the scientific method to prove life beyond death. Before I dropped out of it I had achieved some measure of "fame" in a certain crowd of ghosthunters when I lived in the Midwest. I’ve been on TV several times and I have communed with the top circles of people in the ghosthunting world. I've produced some pretty compelling "proof" along the way in terms of EVPs (ITC), video footage, still pictures and the most compelling of all (to me), personal experiences....

Every time I tried presenting "proof" I watched as it fall on deaf ears...
I could go on about this and perhaps I will in future posts but for now I will leave you with another quote, this time from Robert Jastrow. “"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
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Touching Souls
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Re: Will spiritual things ever be proven by scienc
Reply #18 - Mar 11th, 2006 at 6:32pm
 
Welcome Practical Mystic,

You will find a lot of skeptics here too although I'm not one. I've proved the afterlife to myself many, many times.  I see that you live in Virginia. Have you been to The Monroe Institute?  Just curious. Happy to have you here.

Love, Mairlyn Wink
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PracticalMystic
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Re: Will spiritual things ever be proven by scienc
Reply #19 - Mar 11th, 2006 at 11:03pm
 
Mairlyn,
Thank you so much for the warm welcome. I am feeling strongly that we should get in touch over email.
It is no coincidence that I am in Virginia and believe it or not I am scheduled for a program at TMI next month, my first. I am very much looking forward to it but have no idea what to expect. I could use some info. Also, judging from the description text on your lj we have other things in common.

Love & Light,
PracticalMystic
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Touching Souls
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Re: Will spiritual things ever be proven by scienc
Reply #20 - Mar 11th, 2006 at 11:08pm
 
I'd love to hear from you. My email is Mairtreya@potc.net  I'll be looking for an email from you.

Love, Mairlyn Wink
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Lights of Love
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Re: Will spiritual things ever be proven by scienc
Reply #21 - Mar 12th, 2006 at 7:51am
 
Welcome Practical Mystic!

It sounds as though you do have many interesting stories to tell.

Based on my own experiences, there is no doubt that we are so much more than our physical bodies.  I think in many ways our sciences have already discovered this and are in the process of learning more in regards to the fullness of our nature.  And I agree with Kyo that is it all natural.

Love, Kathy Smiley
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Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.
 
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