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derek acorah a true medium (Read 12846 times)
Spitfire
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #15 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 6:23pm
 
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Yes, but the fact remains that both groups are equally dishonest and devious. Dishonest people should not be given any credit or media time/space. Yet dishonest skeptics are given this.


Mediums actually get more airtime then skeptics, because skeptics are depressing, who wants to hear that we are merely biological units, and when we die we just pop off?, i certainly dont.

But for every skeptic,theres 100 mediums, and while a skeptic can only do big damage if recognised, a medium can affect a greater market of regular folk, looking for some peace.
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mattb1000
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #16 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 6:37pm
 
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Mediums actually get more airtime then skeptics, because skeptics are depressing, who wants to hear that we are merely biological units, and when we die we just pop off?, i certainly dont.

But for every skeptic,theres 100 mediums, and while a skeptic can only do big damage if recognised, a medium can affect a greater market of regular folk, looking for some peace.


Sorry but that is incorrect in my opinion. Every time I hear of a scientist ever making even a "peri-normal" scientific claim you can always expect an article or news clip of a skeptic debunking it. The skeptic will get more coverage than the original guy/gal. The person making the claim could have taken 2-3 years conducting a study, the skeptic can spend 2-3 minutes debunking it WITHOUT looking at the source material!

Every news article always is rounded off with a skeptics opinion at the end of it if the article is based on a paranormal or perinormal theme.

A tv interview or tv show involving frontier science of paranormal topics will 90% of the time have a skeptic wheeled in AFTER the person who has made the claims to debunk the him/her.Often the person making the claims never gets a chance to come back on the skeptics points.

That is standard news article/ tv show format for this area. You will struggle to deny that surely?

That is fine. But if the skeptic is Randi or Wiseman or someone of that ilk, which it often is as they are the media skeptics as well as the hardline skeptics, then its completly pointless since these are proven liars and devious with there debunking.



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deanna
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #17 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 6:46pm
 
Skeptics need proof all the time, if they get it they still dont believe it ,if a spirit dog bit them on the ass they would still not believe, you,ll never convince a skeptic no matter what you say or do and thats a fact.DEANNA
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deanna
 
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Spitfire
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #18 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 6:49pm
 
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Sorry but that is incorrect in my opinion. Every time I hear of a scientist ever making even a "peri-normal" scientific claim you can always expect an article or news clip of a skeptic debunking it. The skeptic will get more coverage than the original guy/gal. The person making the claim could have taken 2-3 years conducting a study, the skeptic can spend 2-3 minutes debunking it WITHOUT looking at the source material!

Every news article always is rounded off with a skeptics opinion at the end of it if the article is based on a paranormal or perinormal theme.

A tv interview or tv show involving frontier science of paranormal topics will 90% of the time have a skeptic wheeled in AFTER the person who has made the claims to debunk the him/her.Often the person making the claims never gets a chance to come back on the skeptics points.

That is standard news article/ tv show format for this area. You will struggle to deny that surely?

That is fine. But if the skeptic is Randi or Wiseman or someone of that ilk, which it often is as they are the media skeptics as well as the hardline skeptics, then its completly pointless since these are proven liars and devious with there debunking.



I dont know were you live, but in the uk, theres probley 10 medium shows for 1 skeptic 1.

Most haunted
Derek acorah
Haunted
Ghost Hauntings
castle ghosts
Horizon [the best usually]
John edwards
psychic crimes

Theres even a psychic interactive channel.

The only skeptical show i know, is the critical eye.

You are correct, about the comebacks however [which i why i like horizon] which goes back and forth between them.

Randi is a liar, true - but so are most mediums, the full area is bloated with scammers, just gotta navigate the crap and find the treasure.
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mattb1000
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #19 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 6:56pm
 
I live in the UK also.

I do not mean those shows. I mean shows involving interviews or one off shows that try to tackle a subject.

The shows you mention on the whole are not discussion based shows.

What are you views on news articles containing perinormal or paranormal subjects?
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The Road goes ever on and on&& Down from the door where it began....&&Where many paths and errands meet.&& And whither then? I cannot say.&&&&&&
 
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Spitfire
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #20 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 7:20pm
 
They aint discussion ones true, but i was demonstrating that people like to hear about mediumship and the paranormal far more then they like hearing about skeptics.

Shows which contain both skeptics and mediums are quite rare, but skeptics often get more airtime, because they have more to say, a medium can only say a certain amount, for they generally have no idea how there powers work.
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mattb1000
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #21 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 7:45pm
 
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They aint discussion ones true, but i was demonstrating that people like to hear about mediumship and the paranormal far more then they like hearing about skeptics.

Shows which contain both skeptics and mediums are quite rare, but skeptics often get more airtime, because they have more to say, a medium can only say a certain amount, for they generally have no idea how there powers work.


I believe you are incorrect when you say people like to hear the skeptics less, otherwise there would be less newspaper and news article coverage when skeptics claim to have debunked someone. They would not be wheeled on the stage to debunk a paranormal claim in that tedius tv format either.

I also believe in my opinion that your statement that a skeptic gets more air time/news space because they have more to say is an assumption.
I also think it is an incorrect assumption since the medium/person putting forward a claim is rarely able to come back on the points the skeptics make.

This is like PM's questions where the opposition speaks first and then Tony Blair responds. The person who has the last word has the advantage. Skeptics always seem to be allowed to have the last word in a debate, in a news article or on a tv show.

Here is a good example where a skeptic claimed to be able to debunk a "paranormal claim" in 10 minutes even though he was given 30 minutes. This transcript of a GOOD AND FAIR debate between skeptic and the person putting forth his findings shows clearly that a skeptics argument implodes if a NORMAL debate is allowed to go on.

http://www.sheldrake.org/controversies/RSA_text.html

Please take a look at that debate or even listen to it here spitfire :-

http://www.sheldrake.org/controversies/telepathy_debate.html

Once you have either read the transcript or heard the audio, do you not agree that this is a MUCH fairer way to debate these issues?

Would you also agree that in this situation the skeptic ended up having very little to say for his critical review?

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The Road goes ever on and on&& Down from the door where it began....&&Where many paths and errands meet.&& And whither then? I cannot say.&&&&&&
 
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Spitfire
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #22 - Feb 15th, 2006 at 8:29pm
 
I believe you are incorrect when you say people like to hear the skeptics less, otherwise there would be less newspaper and news article coverage when skeptics claim to have debunked someone. They would not be wheeled on the stage to debunk a paranormal claim in that tedius tv format either.

Thats your oppinion, but the evidence clearly point's out mediums get far more programs done about them then skeptics ever get/or will get. They even have there own channel. you ask how many people want to believe we survive death, it will be a very high percentage, what do tv channels work off? current issues people are intrested in, thats why skeptics get less airtime. They dont want to be reminded of how mortal they are.


I also believe in my opinion that your statement that a skeptic gets more air time/news space because they have more to say is an assumption.I also think it is an incorrect assumption since the medium/person putting forward a claim is rarely able to come back on the points the skeptics make.


It's true it's an assumption, an assumption based upon a firm pattern of mediums, and how they describe there abilities. Also the fact, these popular skeptics often come from a background in writing either papers, or radio shows or as a proffession [such as univeristy lectures], gives them an edge over mediums, who ar'nt as experienced in this area.


Once you have either read the transcript or heard the audio, do you not agree that this is a MUCH fairer way to debate these issues? 
 
Would you also agree that in this situation the skeptic ended up having very little to say for his critical review? 


I'll read that tommorow, it's abit long - but rupert sheldrake - is a very experienced speaker/writer - and he's not a medium, he's a scientist, thus he has backed up his information in a way a psychic never has.
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mattb1000
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #23 - Feb 16th, 2006 at 7:20am
 
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I'll read that tommorow, it's abit long - but rupert sheldrake - is a very experienced speaker/writer - and he's not a medium, he's a scientist, thus he has backed up his information in a way a psychic never has.


He is a scientist who he putting forward views that go against the grain of the hardlined skeptics paradigm.

This is a fairer situation since a skeptic HAS to come up with logical and fair counters. Debunking a medium is sooooo easy with blanket statements of cold/ hot reading. A skeptic doesnt need to investigate the medium he/she only has to make that comment.

The only difference with Sheldrake and a genuine medium is that Sheldrake is harder to pound due to that fact that he is a biologist and conducts experiments.

The beauty of a skeptic debunking someone like Sheldrake is they are often forced to show their true colours. For example, Wiseman who was so very keen to tell every newspaper and tv show that the "Dog that knows when he's owner is coming home" experiment was a failure, FAILED to even plot his own results which turn out to give the SAME results as Sheldrakes. He was forced to insert this whimsical condition which he then set as a failure. He tried to imply that the dog went to the window for a long time because of passing cars and cats. Yet the graphs clearly show that this is not the case.

The essence of my point is that you first said that liers and dishonest people should have their hands chopped off. Since a skeptic favours science as a primary tool to debunk people a worthy challenge/test of a skeptics ability would be a scientist putting forward a concept that goes against the standard paradigm.

As the transcript shows, skeptics are often RUBBISH when faced with a fair fight.

I am all for false mediums metophorically having their hands chopped off yet many hard lined skeptics are equally fraudulent and so should suffer the same fate.

Derek Acorah has fake written all over him. Most people consider him fake yet a fake skeptic is never exposed!


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Spitfire
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #24 - Feb 16th, 2006 at 8:42am
 
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He is a scientist who he putting forward views that go against the grain of the hardlined skeptics paradigm.

This is a fairer situation since a skeptic HAS to come up with logical and fair counters. Debunking a medium is sooooo easy with blanket statements of cold/ hot reading. A skeptic doesnt need to investigate the medium he/she only has to make that comment.

The only difference with Sheldrake and a genuine medium is that Sheldrake is harder to pound due to that fact that he is a biologist and conducts experiments.

The beauty of a skeptic debunking someone like Sheldrake is they are often forced to show their true colours. For example, Wiseman who was so very keen to tell every newspaper and tv show that the "Dog that knows when he's owner is coming home" experiment was a failure, FAILED to even plot his own results which turn out to give the SAME results as Sheldrakes. He was forced to insert this whimsical condition which he then set as a failure. He tried to imply that the dog went to the window for a long time because of passing cars and cats. Yet the graphs clearly show that this is not the case.

The essence of my point is that you first said that liers and dishonest people should have their hands chopped off. Since a skeptic favours science as a primary tool to debunk people a worthy challenge/test of a skeptics ability would be a scientist putting forward a concept that goes against the standard paradigm.

As the transcript shows, skeptics are often RUBBISH when faced with a fair fight.

I am all for false mediums metophorically having their hands chopped off yet many hard lined skeptics are equally fraudulent and so should suffer the same fate.

Derek Acorah has fake written all over him. Most people consider him fake yet a fake skeptic is never exposed!


You see a 25 stone person, you dont think they are going to be running a marathon, you can generalise that almost all 25 stone people wont be running a marathon, skeptics do that with psychic powers, and end up thinking all claims are fake, yet they think that way for so long, they are extremely stuck in there ways.

Rupert sheldrake, is part of a small group - to which he's done scientific experiments, thus he can answer back, and counter alot of theory's because if he was confident in his results, he would never have published them.

Skeptics are extreme, it's true - so are alot of christians/muslims, psychics. We each fight for our own beliefs, this can blind us to the truth, if a medium/psychic wish's to put a skeptic in his place, they should do what sheldrake does, perform experiments to prove what they can do, put a skeptic in there place, but as i have said rupert is in the minority.

A "fake" [or not a very good] skeptic, is just a person who spouts off, you get them in ever area - from greenpeace to the reformed nazi party. Aslong as you can prove what you know, then it adds to the persons credability, thus he's listened to more etc.

I can watch a bad skeptic spout off, against things -but there just a loud mouth, and as the main point i was trying to prove, a medium messing with someones grief, is like shooting someone who's tied up, they just pray on the weakness of people at a bad time, and charge them for it - were as a skeptic is just a thorn in the side of society.

I agree with you, that skeptics who are crap - dont get the same pasting as a medium who is crap would, and unfortunatly we will just have to hope people can see that these people are just to extreme to listen to any reasonable peice of evidence, and judge them as such.
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mattb1000
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #25 - Feb 16th, 2006 at 8:58am
 
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You see a 25 stone person, you dont think they are going to be running a marathon, you can generalise that almost all 25 stone people wont be running a marathon, skeptics do that with psychic powers, and end up thinking all claims are fake, yet they think that way for so long, they are extremely stuck in there ways.



Which makes the bulk of super sceptics incompetent as well as liers does it not?. If a doctor worked like that he would be sacked due to poor practice because he was making so many misdiagnoses.

Quote:
Rupert sheldrake, is part of a small group - to which he's done scientific experiments, thus he can answer back, and counter alot of theory's because if he was confident in his results, he would never have published them.


The only reason this group is so small is because scientists are shunned if they pursue paranormal areas of science. Sheldrakes work is never published by leading scientific journals yet as you say he is confident with his results and can counter most critical reviews. Yet a scientist can make a claim about multiple universes and is accepted by main stream science and scientific journals, a theory with less proof!

I would also still like your opinion on whether the debate format setup like the sheldrake/Wolpert is a fairer way to discuss a paranormal issue if the "claimant" feels he has evidence and proof of the claim?
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Spitfire
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #26 - Feb 16th, 2006 at 9:28am
 
Which makes the bulk of super sceptics incompetent as well as liers does it not?. If a doctor worked like that he would be sacked due to poor practice because he was making so many misdiagnoses.


Doctors do it all the time, it's all about generalising case's and best guess to lead them onto treatment.

Someone whos overweight goes to see a doctor complaining of breathlessness, the doctor immediately think's weight problem - because it's a common thing amongest people over a certain weight.

And most of them time he would be right, so he sends them for tests in that area - to prove his theory.


The only reason this group is so small is because scientists are shunned if they pursue paranormal areas of science. Sheldrakes work is never published by leading scientific journals yet as you say he is confident with his results and can counter most critical reviews. Yet a scientist can make a claim about multiple universes and is accepted by main stream science and scientific journals, a theory with less proof!


If they aint willing to pursue it due to peer pressure, then they are fools.

Im not a scientist, so i cannot say why they dont like his theory's, perhaps they could'nt recreate his results, or they dont deem it worthy of publication - at any rate, he seems to find plenty of audiences to speak to, and plenty of publishers to publish his works, so he has plenty of chances to change the way his peers view his work.

Yes that format is fair, and i think sheldrake is very good in his convictions to explain and stand by his work. But i still think mediums would have no idea how to answer those sort of questions.
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mattb1000
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #27 - Feb 16th, 2006 at 10:39am
 
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Someone whos overweight goes to see a doctor complaining of breathlessness, the doctor immediately think's weight problem - because it's a common thing amongest people over a certain weight.

And most of them time he would be right, so he sends them for tests in that area - to prove his theory.



The fat man example is something a layman can diagnose. It is the paranormal equivalent of a stage magician ie, it is obvious.

The claims of a medium are closer to the doctors equilvalent of a cancer or another internal problem. If the doctor employed blanket diagnoses with those cases he would be out on his ear!!

Quote:
If they aint willing to pursue it due to peer pressure, then they are fools.

Im not a scientist, so i cannot say why they dont like his theory's, perhaps they could'nt recreate his results, or they dont deem it worthy of publication - at any rate, he seems to find plenty of audiences to speak to, and plenty of publishers to publish his works, so he has plenty of chances to change the way his peers view his work.


If they want to make a living out of being a scientist then they have to be "fools". It is a known fact in the science world that peer pressure is the norm. No grant money for frontier science Im afraid.

His audiences are hardly plentiful as he is not even allowed to publish his work in leading scientific journals.

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The Road goes ever on and on&& Down from the door where it began....&&Where many paths and errands meet.&& And whither then? I cannot say.&&&&&&
 
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Spitfire
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #28 - Feb 16th, 2006 at 11:26am
 
The fat man example is something a layman can diagnose. It is the paranormal equivalent of a stage magician ie, it is obvious. 

The claims of a medium are closer to the doctors equilvalent of a cancer or another internal problem. If the doctor employed blanket diagnoses with those cases he would be out on his ear!!


Yea, and a layman could spot a fake psychic just as easy, which was my point. But that 1 case were an overweight person goes in breathless, and has - lung cancer, the doctor would still say off the bat - i think it was down to him/her being overweight, until the evidence was presented that it was'nt.

If they want to make a living out of being a scientist then they have to be "fools". It is a known fact in the science world that peer pressure is the norm. No grant money for frontier science Im afraid.

His audiences are hardly plentiful as he is not even allowed to publish his work in leading scientific journals.


Theres always funding available, if you search hard enough - the monroe institute, manages to funding, along with VERITAS, and other afterlife/conscious programs.

Plentyful?, he has had 10 books published, and this from his own site.

"He has appeared in many TV programs in Britain and overseas, and was one of the participants (along with Stephen Jay Gould, Daniel Dennett, Oliver Sacks, Freeman Dyson and Stephen Toulmin) in a TV series called A Glorious Accident, shown on PBS channels throughout the US. He has often taken part in BBC and other radio programmes. He has written for newspapers such as the Guardian, where he had a regular monthly column, The Times, Sunday Telegraph, Daily Mirror, Daily Mail, Sunday Times, Times Educational Supplement, Times Higher Education Supplement and Times Literary Supplement, and has contributed to a variety of magazines, including Resurgence, the Ecologist and the Spectator. "

The guy, has reached a huge amount of people. The right kind of people, the public, public intrest = tv shows = funding for experiments in the area.
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mattb1000
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Re: derek acorah a true medium
Reply #29 - Feb 16th, 2006 at 11:37am
 
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Yea, and a layman could spot a fake psychic just as easy, which was my point. But that 1 case were an overweight person goes in breathless, and has - lung cancer, the doctor would still say off the bat - i think it was down to him/her being overweight, until the evidence was presented that it was'nt.


And I am saying that hard lined skeptics do not do this. A skeptic would diagnose the lung cancer patient by using the diagnosis of the fat man.


Quote:
Theres always funding available, if you search hard enough - the monroe institute, manages to funding, along with VERITAS, and other afterlife/conscious programs.


That is NOT scientific funding is it. I am also trying to say to you that the scientific world gets blinked by the scientific merits of Sheldrakes work because the work is not accepted by leading scientific journals. The fact that he has to mainly turn to tv show interviews and own books to put forward hes theories means he gets as much scientific merit as Derek Acorah!! Do you think that is a fair way to look at his work on its scientific merits?

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The Road goes ever on and on&& Down from the door where it began....&&Where many paths and errands meet.&& And whither then? I cannot say.&&&&&&
 
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