Until you've read it, and considered the implications thereof.
The human eye (although it DOES work) is, even in the case of a person with better-than-"perfect" 20/10 vision - a horribly ill-made piece of gear.
For example, there is the "blind spot" (or fovea) which is where the optic nerve enters the retina...
That's right, the optic nerve begins "ON TOP" of the retina!!! (Not behind it, as any good engineer would construct it.) This leads to a "blind spot" on the retina which is not sensitive to light - in other words, the human retina is NOT 100% efficient even in the BEST of cases (unlike a squid's retina, which IS 100% efficient, with the optic nerve attaching to the back of the retina!)
In fact, one 17th-century anatomist is said to have asserted that the human eye was so poorly designed, had he bought it from a supplier he would feel justified in returning it.
Understand, this "human eye" example is just ONE such case of "lousy" biological design.
Where am I going with all this?
INTELLIGENT DESIGN, that's where.
Apparently, "God" wouldn't last long if he took a job at GM. (Would he try to make a car with square tires..? Or maybe when you turned the ignition key, the windshield wipers came on and the horn honked?)
And if there's no "intelligent design" to the universe...
Does that not bring us right back to good ol' mechanistic materialism, and the afterlife is a bunch of hooey and wishful thinking?
Why are there no REPUTABLE scientists who believe in "intelligent design"... why are they all "Dr. Dino" types with a day job selling used cars (or something like that...)
I welcome all of your thoughts on this.

B-man

Good point, as always chum.

Perfect design, - nothing perfect about it, the possiblity of life existing on other planets is becoming more and more plausable.

The earth being in the right spot, is another bogus argument, theoretically we could move millions of miles away from the sun, and still survive.

We are far from perfect, intelligence and co-operation keeps us alive.

Perfect, is contained by our own brain - whats perfect for us, is'nt perfect for someone else.

In reality, everything is random - wether this randomness was set into motion by something else is still debatable.

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Sorry, which one are we discussing here, perfect or intelligent design?

What does the position of the earth have to do with anything?

Many experiements have been set up to show that pure randomness can be affected (P.E.A.R).

I would like your and chum's views on the theories and observations put forward in the articles mentioned above.

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The basis for the "intelligent design" is that it's to perfect to be random. Key arguments for "perfectness" is the position of the earth in relation to the sun, and that no other alien life has been found.

Intelligent design, is used to try and prove the existance of god. It's part of most philosphy course's.

I do believe chum, is trying to make a point that god cannot exist because of this, not that he does'nt believe in nde's/obe's.

Our limited ideas of 'perfection' are not, perhaps, the idea of 'perfection' in the eyes of God. We can't know anything for sure, can we?

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So you agree that chumleys assumption is wrong then. Since you agree that Intelligence design theory is not advocating ultimate perfection?

Greetings Chumley,
Do you wish for the most ' practical' body that could be designed? A drawing was published several years ago of the results of a group of scientists who set out to do just that:--- the mouth and lips were over the stomach, the eye was on a stem protected by a pod over the center of the forehead, the body and limbs were shortened to half their average length, etc.
Have you seen diagrams of the shape formed by the solar winds as they wind around and away from earth?  Its on astronomy solar wind sites. It looks like a human in a cloak, beautiful.
How can you judge which is better? Perhaps we have capabilities or conditions that a squid does not, that must be taken into consideration.  Maybe when you know it all, you'll get to be in charge. Until then I enjoy your challenges.
bets

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Nail...Head...You hit the first on the second.