In your exchange with Spitfire, you mentioned a line of scripture which goes like this...
"Outside are dogs (WHAT? No pooches in "Heaven", then?) murderers, practicioners of "magic arts..."
What the hell, MAGIC ARTS?
If this biblical passage had any relevance to the modern word, Don...
Where are the lightning-bolt throwers? (Our military could use a few of those!!! And where are the necromancers, who could raise massive armies of zombies and ghouls to lead the first assault waves, thus sparing the lives of MANY of our troops?)
Why can't anybody FLY, a'la Superman?
Where are magical cures for cancer, ect? (If "magic arts" were for real, don't think for a MINUTE that we wouldn't have occulto/magical cures available for major diseases - there's WAY too much profit potential there..! And don't even get me started on the whole anti-aging market...)
"Magic Arts"? A bunch of HOOEY, Don.
The whole idea of "practitioners of magic arts" betrays the Bible (and the Koran, and the Talmud) as the creation of ignorant savages, who believed in mumbo-jumbo and hooga-booga... and whose word shouldn't be taken seriously by modern Western society.
"Magic" is pure superstition, Don. (According to Spanish chroniclers of the conquest of Mexico, Montezuma sent "sorcerers" to "cast a spell" on Cortez's army as a last-ditch desperate measure (if "magic" is for real, why wasn't it Montezuma's FIRST measure?) after the Aztec armies repeatedly failed to stop Cortez as he marched on Tenochtitlan. Unsurprisingly, this gambit doesn't appear to have changed the outcome. Gee, I wonder why?)
I don't deny the possibility of "psychic abilities" but these would appear to be unpredictable, not overly dramatic (unlike lightning-bolt hurling!) and not under very good control by the "psychic" in most cases. So maybe "psychics" were the "practitioners of magic arts" spoken of in the Bible as being banned from "Heaven"... primitive, ignorant, hooga-booga tribesmen tend to FEAR anything out of the ordinary, and to be EXTREME comformists to boot - so it wouldn't be surprising at all for them to view people with "psychic gifts" as... EVIL. It is interesting that the ancient Hebrews were viewed as ignorant hillbillies even by such contemporary societies as the Egyptians, "Philistines" (who were most likely Mycenean Greeks) and Persians. And what we see in the "Book of Revelation" is simply an extension of this ancient Hebrew tribal way of thinking, after all - "Yahweh" supposedly not liking "sorcerers" (psychically-gifted people?)
But "psychics" (if they are for real) appear to be BORN with their gift (curse?) and therefore it is God's fault if they are "practitioners of magic arts" as a result of this.
To recap - the whole idea of "magic arts" as a "sin" would appear to be the creation of ignorant, ancient priestcraft as a tool for social control and regimentation (the Spanish Inquisition comes to mind here, with its "witch"-burnings) - not a reference to a real phenomenon. How could there be anything "supernatural", anyway? It is a contradiction in terms. Anything that is - or can be, is a part of Nature - "Nature" being All Things and Phenomena. And if unexplained phenomena occur, then one day it should be possible to mathematically and scientifically quantify and qualify them, and include them in the realm of natural phenomena (the afterlife no less than other things, should it exist.)
So - "practitioners of magic arts???"
What's up here?

B-man

Morning Matt/chum.

I dont believe in black magic, really.

Ive spent many hours thinking about harming people, doe'snt usually happen though. [that i know of]

Belief, i believe in though, as shown with people who have stigmata - they think something, and there body produce's it.

Not to mention, if you believe/think you will fail - you will often screw up, and make yourself do so.

but, i would say the only person who is dangerous to you, is yourself. Wether or not you believe in something, as im sure matt can conferm, quite a number of terminally ill paitents, who have a doctor tell them they have 2 months to live will often die within 24 hours of hearing this. These are often people who believe in what doctors say, or are in so much pain, dont feel like fighting anymore after hearing the news. Where as people who have a fight to the bitter end attitude, and dont class doctors advice as 100% certain, can often stretch out there lives to many months beyond the original prediction, and in some case's, even survive.

I've heard before that the term for magic arts here is also interpreted as sorcery, which in the original language means drug abuse.  So the verse would be better interpreted along the lines of nobody will get to heaven through use of psychadelics.

In my reading, there is a scholarly consensus that 7 BC is the most likely date for Jesus' birth.  Joseph and Mary visit Bethlehem to enrol in a Roman census and this census was only conducted every 7 years.  7 B.C was a year of the Roman census. 

But there is another reason for preferring this date--the so-called "star" of Bethlehem.  In 7 BC, the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn occurred 3 times. December of that year even featured a triple conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars.   In ancient Middle Eastern astrology the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction meant a great world leader would be born in Palestine.  When this conjunction recurred in 1463 AD, some Jewish rabbis viewed this as a sign that the Messiah might come at any moment. 

Of course it is possible that the "star" was in fact a bright UFO, like the starlike UFO lights often reported today.  In that case, we can't use the star to date this ancient phenomenon.  Most scholars prefer the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction theory. 

The so-called "wise men" who follow the "star" are labelled "magoi" in Greek.  This term means both "magician" and "astrologer".  As early as 50 AD, the apostolic fathers unanimously view the role of "magos" in a negative light.  This fact makes it less likely that early Christians would invent this positive role for the magi in Christ's birth.

Most people are unaware of the alternate version of Jesus' life circulated by His first and second century Jewish detractors. This version claims that Jesus studied magic in Egypt and was even tatooed with magical spells.  It concedes that Jesus appeared to perform miracles, but alleges that these were really either demonic or magically induced hallucinations.  Finally, it alleges that Jesus was in fact crucified for both sedition and His practice of magic (For more details see Morton Smith, "Jesus the Magician, chapter 4".).
 
Though ough largely fiictional this alternative version is loosely based on certain facts.  The early Christian abhorrence of magic makes it less likely that they would invent the miracle stories in which Jesus Himself borrows techniques used in magic rituals.  Let me offer just 3 examples.

(1) Like ancient magicians, Jesus routinely lays on hands or fingers to perform healings.   (2) Jesus also teaches His disciples to anoint the sick with olive oil (Mark 6:13; James 5:14), which was thought to have very modest healing properties. The key here is the role of oil as a healing symbol. 

(3) In Jesus' day peasants commonly believed that a healer's spit had healing power.  Jesus uses spit mixed with clay to heal a deaf mute (Mark 7:33) and 2 blind men John 9:6; Mark 8:23).  The latter story is striking because Jesus only succeeds in healing the blind man on His second attempt.  Mark is even honest enough to report that Jesus had trouble healing in His home town because of the negative energy produced by their skepticism (Mark 6:1-6).  The credibility of Gospel miracle stories is enhanced by this willingness to report embarrassing facts like Jesus' "bombing" in His home town and His initial failure to heal the blind man of Bethsaida.  Who cares as long as Jesus ultimately heals the guy?   

Borrowing a technique from magic does not in itself make one a magician.  Magicians typically charged money for their services and believed that if magical rituals were properly performed, the magic must be effective.  By contrast, Christianity has always taught that divine healing is subject to divine sovereignty.  Still, the clash between Jesus' use of magic techniques and the early church's denunciation of magic is a modest argument against the invention of Jesus' miracles stories.

The apostles even used contagious magic which is based on the principle that a blessing applied to a possession extends to its owner.  An example:
"God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured (Acts 19:11-12)."

Left-brain dominance is the enemy of healing.  You can't simply think your way to a miracle.   This early Christian use of magic techniques is designed to absorb the mind in the right kind of expectation by sending faith-conducive signals to the unconscious.

The prophet Elisha employs sympathetic magic to heal the leprosy of Namaan, an Aramean military leader (2 Kings 5).  Sympathetic magic is based on a symbolic imitation of the desired outcome.  In ancient Jewish thought, the leper is deemed unclean.  To make Namaan "clean", Elisha insists that Namaan immerse himself 7 times in the dirty Jordan River.  Namaan is initially enraged by this humiliating suggestion, but Elisha knows that this raging faith can create a state of consciousness conducive to healing.  When Namaan's soldiers coax him into obeying, Namaan humbles himself and obeys.  On the 7th immersion, he is cured.

I have elsewhere shared my own experience of successful sympathetic magic.  Linda called me in a panic to inform me that her husband Russ was very depressed.  His mother was in the last stage of Altheimer's Disease and Russ rushed to Florida to be at her side.   By now she was in a vegetative state.  This was heart-breaking for Russ because, among other things,  he and his Mom needed a reconcilation.  So Linda asked me to pray for Russ.

I immediately sensed that my private prayers would be ineffective.  So I sought the support of a small Pentecostal prayer group because I knew they really believed in the power of group prayer.
I asked them to pray for Russ's Mom by laying hands on me as her proxy.  This was a novel request to them, but they were glad to comply.  They would have balked if I had told them that we were applying a principle of sympathetic magic to this need.  When they laid hands on me, the power of God fell and the tears flowed.  I felt a healing jolt like electricity surge through me. 

The next day, I called Linda to find out if anything had happened.  She was ecstatic.  A depressed Russ had just visited his Mom and, for the first time in many days, she became perfectly rational and lucid.  For 45 minutes the tears flowed as mother and son reconciled and expressed their love for each other.  Then, as if someone clicked off a switch, she returned to her vegetative state and died shortly thereafter.  The dying often become more lucid shortly before the end, but not to my knowledge in the last stage of Altheimer's Disease.

Don