While i am not a believer in the bible, or in jesus christ, i do admire the sense of purpose and belonging that comes with religon.Infomation and communication, have really started to take the mystery out of life. It's true that theres new mystery's evolving, but it's so much harder these days to be apart of them. It would be nice to think theres a higher power then yourself, controling your fate.Thinking to yourself, everything that happens in your life happens for a reason, a purpose.

People i have met who are part of a church, are usually less stressed, happier people. [well until you do something the church does'nt like]Would'nt we all be less stressed if the afterlife was proved beyond shadow of a doubt? i know i would be. Beliefs, which are about what happens to us when we die, i think would stabalise the world.

When people follow a good set of rules, society functions alot more harmoniously, today society is turning into a pile of horse snot, you trip on the street, and the next thing you know you have a stranger telling you to stay down until your lawyer arrives. People are out to just screw others, why? i think a possible reason is, science while benefical, is pretty dam cold, in it's forcast for us, we live we die - we return to the carbon cycle.

The problem these days, is people are becoming educated to such a high standard, religon is going down in populatrity in the western world, because science can answer [or can try to] almost every question someone could ask.

Science is taking the mystery out of living, and human life without mystery, is a life without thrill a sense of purpose and meaning.

Craig,

One night during my Boston years, a drunk with bad breath sat beside me on the subway.  I soon engaged him in conversation and he poured out his objections to the Catholic church of his youth.   I asked him to pretend that he was God and asked him which theological beliefs he would then encourage.  He had never thought of such a game, but soon spontaneously poured forth incredible wisdom, which he assumed was heretical.  I assured him that most of what he said was in fact biblically valid.  He had no theological training and was shocked that I said this.  I have found this to be true of other agnostics as well.  

Craig, in a few days I will soon redirect my energies to the spiritual issues you raise.  In addition to refining or expanding your issues, I'd encourage you to reflect on what Christianity would teach if you were God and the source of ultimate truth.  This playful presumption might lead to some interesting issues and insights.  In doing so, try to anticipate how I might reply. That might help me create more relevant answers.  

Your initial explorations of the Ouija board and mediums is quite rational,  though not my first choice.   I konw you're disappointed, but your explorations might have yielded very concrete verifications, which are often frustratingly elusive in spiritual quests.  If and when you feel ready for it, I'd encourage you to launch prayer experiments.  I know you don't believe in the Christian God.  I respect your reasons and will soon address them.  But beginning prayer requires no faith.  I am not suggesting that you compromise any of your current convictions.  Engage God AS IF He exists and cares about your quest.  But respectully present "Him" (Her) with all your reasons for rejecting Him.  Be real!  At the same time--and this is the most important point--tell God what you might be willing to do if God convinced you of His love and guidance to your satisfaction.   Spiritual experience is everything; doctrinal correctness is the booby prize.   The more you play this game in your imagination, the more likely it is that you will begin to experience a transformed consciousness and eventually some convincing verifications.
             
I know that you are far from being ready for church.  But let me address your comments on this thread.  In real life, the strongest argument against Christianity is other Christians. (hypocrisy, judgmentalism, narrow-mindedness, etc.).  Conversely, practically speaking, the strongest argument in favor of Christianity is also other Christians, i. e. Christians in community who often go the extra mile to comfort those in distress and offer them financial assistance.   Ordinary folk are initially attracted by the warmth of certain churches (too few!), a friendliness which eventually opens their hearts to experiences of God's loving presence and even miracles.   Initially, though, most of them could care less about doctrinal debate and the problems of biblical credibility.  Eventually, though, if such concerns are not adequately addressed, this would be sufficient grounds for abandoning a church.

Once newcomers find value in loving community and sense God's guidance, many are then ready to confront the difficult questions of doctrine that you have raised.   But many other church members care only about the loving harmony and never launch a genuine spiritual quest.   I like to confront such Christians with legitimate grounds for doubt to motivate them to dig deeper.   Also,  those who are comfort-seekers rather than truth-seekers often display the character flaws that give some churches a bad name.  

Occasionally, a poster on this site will ask me to recommend a church.  I advise them to initially take for granted that they have enough spiritual discernment to sense whether the spirituality of a specific church is genuine and potentially nourishing.  What one senses and experiences in a church is far more important than how well the church articulates biblical beliefs.  I wouldn't make  the denomination a priority.   All churches give lipservice to the power of prayer, but in my experience, only a few really take a disciplined prayer life seriously.  Those churches that do often radiate a loving atmosphere and a palpable sense of God's presence.        

Don

P.S. For my Jewish friends, I acknowledge that jewish mysticism (Merkabah, etc.) seems absolutely fascinating and full of valuable insights.  But I must address what I know best and have experienced.

Spitfire,

Like Don, I too respect the reasons behind your beliefs.  I also encourage you to pray...whether you believe the Christian "God" is listening or not.   Those who diligently search for truth will find it, so keep searching with an open mind and open heart. 

Bug

Dave,

I do agree that prayer works.  I cannot speak for Don, but I didn't encourage Spitfire to pray in order to find God...what he finds will be up to him.  I am simply hoping that prayer will lead him to the truth.  If that truth is the Christian God, then so be it.  Second, if a person prays earnestly for God to show him/her truth...there is no doubt it will come.  And when it comes, there will be no doubt who answered the prayer.

Dave,
I believe that you have hit the nail on the head.  Individual truth is all relative.  Relative to many things...who you are, the time of day, the purpose meant for your existence, etc.  Personally, I don't think the same "truth" is true for everyone.  Excuse the pun.  We can all look at a painting and see very different images because we all see the painting from a different perspective.  I do not believe that God expects or meant for us to be robots who all believed, felt, and acted in the same ways.  How boring!   We all have a different purpose in life.  Your purpose may very well be to question these beliefs in order to make those around you think a little more about what this all means.  Ultimately, our main goal in life should be to seek this purpose because it is, in fact, our truth. 

The foundation has been set.  What we have to do is seek truth without trying to destroy it.  Take the Bible for instance.  There are too many people so quick to call it garbage without trying to find their own truth hidden in it.  I'm not trying to force you to read it, or tell you that you will find the truth in it...just saying that's one place to begin searching if you want to look.  The same goes for prayer. 

Your truth is very different from mine.  My truth comes from faith...which is a whole different converation thread, so I won't go there.  For some, faith comes easy, for others it takes a lifetime of searching. 

Needless to say, there are millions of people looking for a scientific explanation for everything under the sun.  Many times science leaves us with more questions than answers.  So, I have to accept that there isn't a scientific answer for everything (truth included).  If so, mankind hasn't been able to find all of the answers through scientific experimentation.  I don't know all there is to know about life nor do I care to know.  I have found a peace that surpasses all understanding.  I can tell you one truth, my friend... there is something out there greater than all of us.  That something holds the key to all of the questions that science cannot answer. 

Dave,

I fundamentally disagree with you about many things.  But I agree with you about God's cosmic sense of humor.  In the Wisdom literature of the Old Testament, the process of divine creation is imaged as divine "play"--an image that helps make biblical creationism somewhat compatible with the random aspect of evolutionary theory.   As the embodiment of God, Jesus displays an acute sense of humor which is on display in His celebration of laughter, in His bizarre use of Semitic hyperbole to infuse His points with memorable shock value, and in His frequent use of corny  puns, which are on display in the Aramaic retroversion of His Greek Gospel sayings.  Ministers often misinterpret Jesus by taking some of His teaching literally when He was basically going for laughs. 

One of my favorite cinematic portrayals of Jesus is a scene in Bunuel's Spanish film "The Milky Way."  In this scene two witless pilgrims in France have stopped at an inn en route to a sacred site.   They are immersed in grim theological debate.  A waiter notices their frowning faces and asks, "Do you  think Jesus had a sense of humor?"  That question cues a switch to the scene of a man racing through a field of grain laughing his head off.  The audience is startled to realize it is Jesus, who is on His way to bring His disciples to tthe wedding  feast at Cana, where He will turn the water into wine, but only after a long period of wine drinking and mirthful merriment that characterized Jewish weddings in Jesus' day--and today.

Christians like to stress Jesus's character, example, and teaching at the expense of His witty personality.   But in real life, personality and character cannot be so easily separated.   The church would do well to compensate for this neglect, the reason for which is not hard to find.   

With all its warmth and wit, Jesus' humanity brings with it all our natural limitations.  These limitations enhance the realism of His spiritual example, but are threatening to Christians who have an unbiblical view of His divinity.  Many Christians wrongly assume that the earthly Jesus was omnipotent and omniscient, but then are hard-pressed to explain why He could do not miracles until He was anointed with the Holy Spirit at His baptism.  Jesus spent most of His life as a carpenter with no obvious special powers.  If He was always walking around with two full-blown natures---one human and the other divine---then why would He need an infusion with the Holy Spirit to perform miracles?   The Bible teaches that He "emptied Himself" of His divine prerogatives to become human and that these prerogatives were restored to Him by His resurrection and exaltation.  But during His strictly human period, He was limited in both knowledge and power.   

Don

P.S. Justin Martyr who grew up in first-century Samaria, near Gailee reports people proudly displaying ploughs made by the carpenter Jesus.  Just imagine if archaeologists discovered a buried first-century plough inscribed with the signature of "Jesus of Nazareth."   In addition to being priceless, such a treasure would be a valuable reminder of Jesus' full humanity.

Thanks for the reply's guys.

Prayer, is almost an alien concept for me. I have no faith, belief or evidence to show me, praying is anything but imagining your wishes inside your head, thus leading yourself to cold conclusion that "no one/thing" is listening.

I had a college teacher who's wife was dieing of cancer, a devoted christian, the church organised a pray meeting for her, 15,000 people attended, and the outcome. She died. [and convertered most of her family to athiesim].

Ultimate Truth to me, is the maximization of ones knowledge based upon the confines to which they are held. As the confines to which we are held change, so does truth.

What do i search for in this mortal realm?, i search for the basic truth of "what comes next?". Do we survive, how do we survive, what is our purpose here?

Like most things, until ive had time away from my current existance i will not fully understand many aspects of whats to come. Just like when i was at school, i could imagine having a job - being grown up, driving a car - but until it occured many things remained foriegn to me, but the basic concepts - such as earning money, responsibility, i could comprehend basically, thanks to our unique ability of interlectual growth/interpretation of information and imagination.