Yesterday heard an interesting interview on the radio with an author who has lived with "the Reindeer people" in Siberia. Piers Vitebsky. He's at the University of Cambridge. He mentioned that trditionally these people followed the reindeer and their shamans used to go out to look for the location of the herd. "Out" meaning obe (not his words). Apparently the word 'shaman' comes from some of these peoples (M-W:  from Evenki (Tungusic language of Siberia)). Vitebsky has studied other peoples also and has written several books, including one I see called Dialogues with the dead: the discussion of mortality among the Sora of eastern India .

Has anyone read any of these works and if so what did you learn from them?

That's pretty interesting, Jean.

Well, this article is pretty interesting:

http://www.shamanism.org/articles/857415539.htm

He has so many ideas in there.
This comment wa spretty interesting relative to what we discuss here:

"Shamans who do another type of healing help the dead as well as the living. These shamans are called "psychopomps," or conductors of souls. Remember, from a shamanic point of view, when you're comatose, you're dead. So the shaman, in the case of comatose persons, would seek them out and see if they wanted to come back. "

so are we trying to learn to be psychopomps? : )

The comments about possession were interestin grelative to some discussions we've had here.

I never managed to drum myself into a trance and maybe I'd like to try that but I don't know how. I once went to a modern dance class with a live drummer, and I recall in particular one class where we did our warm-up in a circle. We really got a little out. The drummer was sensitive to these things and she knew it! It was really fun to experience. But That's all. I have heard of dancers of African dance who sometimes feel that spirits overtake them while they are dancing (to drums of course). Do you know any more about that aspect?

That's a pretty interesting concept: that if you use your connectionm for unpositive ways, you end up losing power.

Ya know, I can fall asleep in a heartbeat...I think there is something wrong with my brain waves. Of course, living on the sleep-deprived edge doesn't help. But talking either irritates me or knocks me out. I can come in to work and go to a 10 AM talk with slides (well Powerpoint these days, but whatever...) and start nodding off halfway through. It is a real problem. Maybe drums will do something different. At least give me different dreams.

I did have one interesting experience recently. I was trying to mentor my kid but I think to him I was a slave-driver. He had a major project due and I ended up having him redo parts of it at the last minute. We ended up staying all night (5 AM)doing alot of mental work. Then I tried to sleep for a couple of hours. When I lay down, I flipped into this really interesting mental place. I was seeing people and they had beautiful light around them. I knew I was somewhere else! Then I did sleep.

It occurred to me that it might take a nasty vision quest to work for me. I must be really dense. This happened before. Iwas up all night moving after several days of moving and when I did get some sleep I went obe.  I mean, I have to stress myself out to remember stuff. Otherwise I sleep. (Another alternative is a bottle that says "Drink me" etc. but that's not my thing). The sleep deprivation is not without consequences. Well I got up and went to work that day, but the next AM I had a great migraine-type experience.

Oh yeah the kid got to stay home and sleep....

Thanks for the info, I might try it.

Lucy &  Dave,

So glad to get back here this week.  I don’t get a chance to talk to you two much but in my mind, I have conversations with both of you.  This week was interesting because Wednesday, I had to go to the VA with my husband but I had the companion of Paul Elder’s new book, “Eyes of an Angel”.  He too had some of his best experiences when he was sleep deprived as I suspect most of us do.  That’s when our expectations, resistance, or fears are low just because we’re too dang’ tired.  That’s also how those ‘60’s marathon T-groups got people to be so honest. Anyhow, this easy reading spiritual adventure was just reviewed by TMI because Elder has been there at least 4 times but started out much like Monroe with OBE’s but he also recalled his NDE experiences. The book was given to me this week by a fellow CM who thought I might like it.  Of course I devoured it and was surprised when I realized I had also just received the book review.  So I’m still a little spacey from it and wondering why I’m not moving faster in this area.

Meanwhile, Friday I attended a Spirituality workshop for social workers sponsored by ASU and signed up for “Exploring Meditation, Music, and Other Spiritual Practices for Your Renewal and Stress Management”.  I was excited about this workshop because the second part of it included an experiential live percussion performance while doing mediation aimed at being receptive to the sounds and I would finally get my chance to be part of the drum experience.  As it turned out, the first part with all the talking was the most helpful while the percussion part was just plain assaulting to my ears.  I had to keep turning my head so that I didn’t get the full blast in any one ear.  What a disappointment.  During the exercise, I kept thinking that the hemi-sync tapes, which are so subtle as they move me to the various consciousness levels, had spoiled me but then I realize that these particular percussions were too high for my ears.  When both of you mentioned that you could trance or get into an altered state just by listening to drums, so can I, but these instruments did not work for me.  As they later explained the primary percussions used were from the Korean culture and sounded more like pots and pans being clanged together. Some of these percussion instruments were originally used to chase spirits away and this thought caused me to feel concern for those unfortunates who might have been better served by a kind word and suggestion to move on.  So I wasn’t surprised when the facilitator mentioned that a fellow of his drumming group heard crying in one of these instruments.

Anyhow, I must be more responsive to the deeper resonating sounds of the Native American and Scottish/Irish percussion instruments especially when it’s repetative.  So as Dave mentions and I agree, we do like different flavors and like Lucy said, when someone drones on and on, I tend to space out if not actually nod off.  I still would like to try the drum experience with a group someday but meanwhile the H.S. tapes work well and I am able to get into a relaxed state just by recalling them.

The afternoon workshop on Dream Codes was also interesting in that the CD played to guide us into a meditation for asking a question of our guides had the same gentle sound as the binomial beat and pink sound under the facilitators voice as Monroe’s H.S. tapes and I was able to easily go into a light mediation. Not that I liked the answer to my question, “What next?” “Just wait!”  I also found it interesting that this Jungarian dream therapist took my interjections regarding that dreams were more than stories which we were to decode but they also might be getting us in touch with past lives, doing retrievals, experiencing lucidity or OBE’s, or connecting with our soul groups, deceased relatives, or our guides.  This gentle soul granted that they were all possibilities and even gave an example of one of his young clients who experienced lucid dreams and how he was able to guide him into taking a more active role with bullying playmates using his positive strengths while lucid dreaming. 

So being over tired, using sound, and having simple verbal exercises and a lot of group support seems to be some of the doorways to getting out of our C1 consciousness. One other thing I noticed during this workshop was that, it seemed to me, that the most interesting feedback of these two workshops came from the newbees, the students, not the experienced workers in the field of social work or those of us more into the study of spirituality.  The rest of us sure could BS but the younger students saw colors during the percussion experience and told of the most amazing, relevant to their current, life dreams.  I guess it could be the old empty cup vs the full cup scenario.  I guess once you have a lot of data, it’s harder to be receptive to just allowing the experiences to unfold.  I think that’s why I found Elder’s book so refreshing.  He was such an innocent as his spiritual journey developed but like Gorden Phinn, he wasn’t really a writer, but he did have a lot of help from his guides.

Love, Jean         

   

You said...
In his early shamanistic travels induced by a psychoactive plant drug, Michael Harner had some exotic astral experiences in which he was exposed to detailed symbolic imagery that can also be found in the Book of Revelation.   Harner had not yet even read this New Testament book!   To me, this suggests that Jung's archetypal approach to the unconscious is on the right track and might be important for grasping mysterious imagery glimpsed in the astral planes.   In other words, the meaning of many astral experiences might be far more poetic, symbolic, and elusive than we had ever anticipated.

Early Christianity provides the earliest LITERARY examples of a belief in soul retrievals.  But it is at least possible that shamanistic retrievals precede Christianity by centuries.  Certainty is of course impossible.  But I encourage an inter-religious and interdisciplinary approach to such matters.

Don
*****************
Would those "similarities to the Book of Revelation"
include everyone with the "Mark of the Beast" getting covered with putrid sores,  swarms of scorpion-stinged, human-faced locusts, and corpses crawling from their graves a'la "Dawn of the Dead?"
Me, I prefer Thomas Jefferson's take on the B.O.R. - he was a WISER man than you or I, Don (or John Ashcroft and Pat Robertson for that matter.) He called Revelation "The ravings of a Lunatic..."
'Nuff said there.

B-man

[quote author=Berserk link=board=afterlife_knowledge;num=1137953704;start=0#9 date=01/28/06 at 20:35:22]Dear Chum,

No, Harner's shaman trip did not include that imagery.   You are obviously practically illiterate in biblical interpetation, and yet, excrete your venom with no inclination or ability to ever respond intelligently.   Bruce tolerates this from you and your ilk, but not from those who oppose the Ghetto mentality here.  But I will not tolerate such obnoxious comments (i. e. "the ravings of a lunatic") without comment, even if I get censured. 

Don

P.S. I'll bet you don't even know the meaning of "666" in Revelation 13, which is well known and not controversial at all in scholarly circles.
******************
O.K. - what is it then?
(And don't tell me it is the number of Nero's
name... sure he was a mega-pervert and a
THOROUGHLY evil man... but any number of
men you see walking down the street in our
times would be just as bad - IF he had the access
to unlimited power (and unaccountability!) that
Nero did. Given that you're probably living within a block or two of a potential Nero, what's so special about him, historically?)

B-man

Dear Don,

I’m defiantly confused and have some questions I’d like to ask you: 1) What is “ilk” and who all is considered to fit into the “ilk” group? 2) Obviously your one of those who opposes the “Ghetto mentality”, but what exactly is the “Ghetto mentality”? 3) Who all is included in this “Ghetto mentality” group? 4) Is there a possibility the B-man represents your shadow?  To me he’s just someone who does not accept the dogma of religion and one who doesn’t quite trust that love is a real thing but otherwise a pretty intelligent sensitive sort and that’s why I think he gets so passionate in his responses to put downs, shoulds, and dogma. 5) When you refer to Jung’s archetypal approach, implying that it is superior to current reported experiences of those contributing to this think tank, why do you think Jung’s words and descriptions are more valid? 6) When you use the unconscious as opposed to C1 consciousness and remembering astral exploration exactly as it happened minus personal overlay do you not allow for the experience being real and in the conscious mind?  7) When you use terms like mysterious imagery, implying that they are not actual experiences glimpsed in the astral planes, and describe the experiences of these ancient individuals as poetic, symbolic, and elusive rather that their journeys OBE/alter consciousness journeys merely being actual descriptions using their time and place everyday language to explain what they saw and/or were told by other individuals and consciously shared with others when they were back in C1 physical reality, why do you allude to what is experienced is given in code rather than kept simple as given? 8) Why do keep implying that Jung has the correct POV in areas concerning dreams and night journeys and interpretations of these over contributors on the board? 9) Why do you say B-man hijacked a thread away from its topic when you gave 2 responses to him moving it even further away? 10) Isn’t it true that Jung died believing that we can never finally know (the answers to the big questions explored on this site) but added that he “…believed that some part of the human self or soul is not subject to the laws of space and time” (Jung, 1975) while Carl Rogers actually met with Monroe at TMI and was very interested in his work just before he died (The Rogers Reader)?

Don’t misinterpret me in that I do value what Jung had to say concerning archetypes, the shadow, collective conscious, and the value of using your imagination to make associations, connecting dream images to inner dynamics, and interpreting your inner world to understand what issues you need to resolve to live a more conscious life but I do object when it is not acknowledged that many on this board are doing valid none imaginary type altered consciousness work and recording this in real time in now language right here on this board and need to be supported in their endeavors.

Don, you don’t really have to answer these because I do sense your intention and I don’t really want to cause you pain but please try to honor what we each are attempting to do here whether it’s a simple inquiry like Lucy’s, sharing our experiences in altered consciousness, or giving feedback, because it’s done in sincerity, with love and with a pioneering spirit that at times is a bit fragile.   

Jean

quick multiple thoughts

Jean wish they had such seminars in my field. Thanks for the comments. I will try to look for Elder's book after I finish what I have...still reading Harner of course.

If Harner saw the reptilian images because they are in the collective subconcious, did they show up in Revelations because they are in the collective subconcious, or is the implication that they got into the collective sub. from Revelations? I vote for the former because I think it is more interesting. But the old blind shaman who was familiar with the Reptilians probably hadn't read Revelations either. It is a bunch of interesting ..coincidences.

Dripping water on an old aluminum pie plate. Was this from an actual life experience? very clever. Did you fix the faucet or just zone out on it? (it occurs to me that I could use this without much effort using the bathroom sink).

As I am reading Harner, I am taking his concept that this is not recreational very seriously. In fact, I'm having trouble going beyond using these techniques for anything but clear shamanic work. Maybe Harner departs more in more recent writings? You are supposed to have a goal or task, but maybe I just want to look around. i feel like I'm playing with fire.

Maybe my guides and familiars are laughing at me now????

Another thing struck me. I love nature and so I love all the animal stuff. But I'm also an intellectual of sorts, or at least I live in my head alot, so sometimes I deal with alot of non-nature images. And I wonder if a triangle can have a personality. I am reading over another book now (e : The Story of a Number) and this is in the frontpiece:

Philosophy is written in this grand book - I mean the universe - which stands continually open to our gaze, but it cannot be understood unless one first learns to comprehend the language and interpret the characters in which it is written. It is written in the language of mathematics, and its characters are triangles, circles, and other geometric figures, without which it is humanly impossible to understand a single word of it.
-Galileo Galilei, Il Saggiatore (1623)