Conversation Board - Symbiosis of world views

pratekya

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Symbiosis of world views
Jan 10^th, 2006 at 1:17pm

Greetings... I have a few questions and was hoping for some insight on this. I am an open minded person who is trying to resolve some ideas here. My ideas are coming from 1/ this website and Bruces' workbook which I'm reading through and am really enjoying, 2/ sites that talk about NDEs and what happens to people when they die, and 3/ a liberal interpretation of Christianity (which I happen to be a liberal Christian).

So yes, I do have a couple assumptions going in, and I'm not sure if I can mesh everything together, or if they are going to be conflicting world views. Please don't attack me as a religious person - I am not particularly religious, although I would say that I am a spiritual person.

In any case, my assumptions are that /1 God exists (in a bigger sense than just the Judeo-Christian sense) and 2/ Jesus was an incarnation of God's Spirit who died to redeem humanity.

Those assumptions seem to work fine with the NDE (near death experience) material written about on various websites; in fact most of the material still supports the idea of a Jesus / God like figure and a life review, which is consistent with and reinforces Christian ideas. There are of course cultural / religious differences as well, but that makes sense if you assume God / and or higher beings are smart enough to relate to people in a way that makes sense to the recently deceased.

By the way, I am not sure whether or not the bible teaches eternal damnation - like I said I'm a liberal Christian. I do this because in the original languages with the passages describing damnation, the words suggest long periods of time, not necessarily forever. Additionally I am not assuming that just because the bible says something that it is true - I am keeping an open mind to everything, searching for truth.

What I have trouble with reconciling comes down to three points:
1. The people who need freedom from earth bound states or BSTs after death - a life review is not mentioned with them, and there seems to be no mention of God / Jesus figures. Have these people not had a life review yet? Have they had experiences with God and or Jesus? Most of the people who have had negative (or positive) NDE experiences experience a life review and a God / Jesus experience.
2. If people need to believe they are forgiven for their sins and essentially it is done at that point, why was it necessary for Jesus to die to redeem the sins of humanity? Does this take Jesus out of the equation totally or is Jesus' death still necessary for our redemption but in a more indirect way?
3. What about people who deserve terrible things? Lets face it, if there is no retribution for acts after this life then life and its consequences seem to be a joke. For example, a repeat child molester dies, does not have a life review and/or contact with Jesus / God, and belives that he can create his own reality in the afterlife. He does so, and creates a world of fun and kids to victimize. I want people to be redeemed and saved, but the afterlife seems terribly unjust if this is the case.

Please respond, especially if you have experience with doing retreavals, working with guides, or something similar. Thanks

.

Note: I cannot get a phrase out of a sentence in the third paragraph that says 'I disagree' no matter what I do to it. Strange. I've erased the whole paragraph and retyped it, I've erased part of the paragraph... it still shows up. Strange.

Try typing out the phrase 'M y a s s u m p t i o n s a r e t h a t' without spaces and you will get 'I disagreeumptions are that' in your online post

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« Last Edit: Jan 10^th, 2006 at 4:29pm by pratekya »

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bets

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Re: Symbiosis of world views
Reply #1 - Jan 10^th, 2006 at 2:46pm

Greetings,
You'll find answers from people who have read the books and know the full context of your questions. I've ordered the books but in the meantime I just love talking to you all....
Someone along the way has said that Jesus' crucifixion was like an exclamation point to his life and teachings, to show he really meant it, to insure he wouldn't be forgotten, a grande finale sort-of thing. It had to happen to show that the godliness was in a real human who suffered. Does that fit in with what you asked?
In the other questions, what about later sessions when the soul plans its afterlife? Wouldn't that be a time for its teachers to make sure it experiences the brunt of what it handed out before? Like I said I need to read the books to really know what you're asking.
this is quite an adventure, isn't it!

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bets

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Re: Symbiosis of world views
Reply #2 - Jan 10^th, 2006 at 5:01pm

PS My assumptions are that
being redeemed has become a promise offerred by churches so it's religious rather than spiritual. the meaning would vary then based upon what religious views we were brought up with;
I disagree uptions with
the idea that villains are unaffected by their villainy. If a villain returns and is shunned, might that be the beginning of retribution? Someone (PhoenixRa?) said recently on another board that rejection is the opposite of love.

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bets Ex Member	Re: Symbiosis of world views Reply #3 - Jan 10^th, 2006 at 5:05pm Pratekya-- You have exposed a spirit working this board! (Call Spitfire--he's looking for proof!) I wrote what you said and it automatically changed to what you said it would! bets
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pratekya

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Re: Symbiosis of world views
Reply #4 - Jan 10^th, 2006 at 5:29pm

Your response Bets illustrates the problem. Wouldn't we want to reject the acts of say a child molester while maybe not rejecting him as a person? How about the people who have been negatively affected by this person during thier earthly life? Where does justice come in for them? Is having the child molester in a hellish state where he feels the effects he has done to others retribution or is it justice? Karma even?

I think one of the strongest reasons to believe in an afterlife is because this world is insanely unfair to billions of people, and if there is no recompense for the suffering of many during their physical lives then the world is hideously evil. Traditional Christianity addresses this by saying people go to heaven or hell for eternity. I don't know if eternal damnation is warranted for temporary sins, but at least some punishment is justified for inflicting pain and cruelty on others. Should Nazi's get off the hook because they believe they can control their afterlife experience and / or believe they are not at fault for what they have done to others? Near Death Experiencers and traditional Christianity would say no. I'm not sure what people who follow Bruce Moen would say. And I say that with a lot of respect for Bruce and his methods, and people who follow those methods to explore the afterlife.

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Spitfire

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Re: Symbiosis of world views
Reply #5 - Jan 10^th, 2006 at 8:51pm

God/jesus during NDE'S are often people going to a focus level bound by the restrictions placed upon them by there own minds and the teaching of christianity.

1. The people who need freedom from earth bound states or BSTs after death - a life review is not mentioned with them, and there seems to be no mention of God / Jesus figures. Have these people not had a life review yet? Have they had experiences with God and or Jesus? Most of the people who have had negative (or positive) NDE experiences experience a life review and a God / Jesus experience.

It's true many people seem to have life reviews - but not many claim to be judged by god/jesus and if they are - you will probley find that they are christians therefore there view is tainted and end up stuck on a lower level of existance.

2. If people need to believe they are forgiven for their sins and essentially it is done at that point, why was it necessary for Jesus to die to redeem the sins of humanity? Does this take Jesus out of the equation totally or is Jesus' death still necessary for our redemption but in a more indirect way?

Jesus never died for my sins, i was'nt even around (or at least i assume i was'nt). Jesus died because he was stupid, he could heal people - turn water to wine, and make 1 fish feed so many thousand. Yet He could'nt get away from a few romans? this leads to the assumption he wanted to get caught.

Why jesus dieing washes away our sins i have no idea/ poor sods were crucified all the time during that period for little or no reason, and i dont see god using them as a token to absolve all humanity.

God knew jesus would be executed. Otherwise he would'nt be omnipotent. Therefore he wanted it to happen and as such....jesus did'nt so any self sacrificing because his "farther" slapped him there.

What about people who deserve terrible things? Lets face it, if there is no retribution for acts after this life then life and its consequences seem to be a joke. For example, a repeat child molester dies, does not have a life review and/or contact with Jesus / God, and belives that he can create his own reality in the afterlife. He does so, and creates a world of fun and kids to victimize. I want people to be redeemed and saved, but the afterlife seems terribly unjust if this is the case.

Looking from a human perspective, it's terrible true. But when you stand back and look at bad things it always has some positive affect - the balance between good and bad is not equal, and we each get a deck of cards - sometimes we win, sometimes we loose. We always learn.

Our bodies have a huge impact on our actions- people with brain damage, would feel no remorse for murdering you. Do this mean they shoudl spend eternity in hell?

Learning from ones mistake, takes time and lots of it. You need to live with your consequences - from both sides. Sometimes we cannot learn lessons in the current life (if we even have more then 1) because our bodies/beliefs are to bound/restricted to allows us to. You cant learn to be a marathon runner with on legs, etc.

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Spitfire

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Re: Symbiosis of world views
Reply #6 - Jan 10^th, 2006 at 9:04pm

Quote:

I think one of the strongest reasons to believe in an afterlife is because this world is insanely unfair to billions of people, and if there is no recompense for the suffering of many during their physical lives then the world is hideously evil. Traditional Christianity addresses this by saying people go to heaven or hell for eternity. I don't know if eternal damnation is warranted for temporary sins, but at least some punishment is justified for inflicting pain and cruelty on others. Should Nazi's get off the hook because they believe they can control their afterlife experience and / or believe they are not at fault for what they have done to others? Near Death Experiencers and traditional Christianity would say no. I'm not sure what people who follow Bruce Moen would say. And I say that with a lot of respect for Bruce and his methods, and people who follow those methods to explore the afterlife.

You use yourself a base for judgement. Do nazi's think other nazi's are bad? no. if they think your bad for being a jew...do they have the right to tell you you will spend eternity in hell?

You can ultimately only judge yourself. If you have lived 1,000 times. thats 750,000 years (average of 75 years per life) - a nazi bungs you in prision camp for 4 years. You find out in your last life - you chopped that nazi's head off for defending his cattle from you and the rest of your mongel invading buddy's.

If we do re-incarnate, and we still had all the things from a previous life hanging around us, you would have jews executing chinese people for having the memorys of there former life etc.

We think actions here and now are the ultimate thing in universe, but while they are importent- the only thing that is importent is the knowledge you take away from them.

If we are little more then a random accident, we are as small as 1 bacteria in a human body, compared with the universe. If a partical of a bacteria killed another particle of bacteria....do you really thing anyone would care?.... The only things that would care, would be the 2 particles and surround ones.

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pratekya

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Re: Symbiosis of world views
Reply #7 - Jan 11^th, 2006 at 1:04am

Jesus never died for my sins, i was'nt even around (or at least i assume i was'nt). Jesus died because he was stupid, he could heal people - turn water to wine, and make 1 fish feed so many thousand. Yet He could'nt get away from a few romans? this leads to the assumption he wanted to get caught.

Why jesus dieing washes away our sins i have no idea/ poor sods were crucified all the time during that period for little or no reason, and i dont see god using them as a token to absolve all humanity.

God knew jesus would be executed. Otherwise he would'nt be omnipotent. Therefore he wanted it to happen and as such....jesus did'nt so any self sacrificing because his "farther" slapped him there.

Wow Jesus is stupid? Thats a new one to me. You are right in saying he didnt die for your sins. You have to recognize him, follow him, and ask for his help for his sacrifice to pay for your sins in Christian theology. Obviously you are no friend to Christianity with that attitude. And as for you not being around... is it that hard to imagine that this applies to all people, in all times? Not our modern American version of Christianity, that you need to say a Lord's prayer, but that he paved the way towards salvation for all people in all times / cultures? Obviously what that means for different people would be different. Certain jews are held up as heroes of the Judeo-Christian faith but never knew Jesus while he was alive.

Yes he 'wanted to get caught', he came to die, as God incarnate, so that people would be freed from their sins in the present and the afterlife. I thought that's what Bruce's work seems to be about, and I would assume people who frequent this website would also have that attitude. I have been proven wrong.

As for God the father slapping Jesus there, you assume that it wasn't a choice for Jesus to be crucified. Once again, you show a lack of knowledge of Christian theology. Jesus chose to die, repeatedly, and mentioned that fact several times throughout the gospels. You can disagree that this happened, but your disagreement is then with the bible, not dealing with the issue at hand that I posed.
In addition from this section, you mean Omniscient, not Omnipotent. And no, I don't think that Jesus was Omniscient. He was an incarnation of God that took human form, with human limitations. He knew enough to follow the Spirit's next move, not exactly everything that was going on. He was not God walking around in a man-suit.

Lastly, most people will say that Jesus was a good teacher. But he claimed to basically be an incarnation of God. Was he telling the truth? Deluded? A liar? Those are the only three logical options.

You use yourself a base for judgement. Do nazi's think other nazi's are bad? no. if they think your bad for being a jew...do they have the right to tell you you will spend eternity in hell?

The logic here is unclear, but let me say this. I do think it matters what God thinks about the state that someone will be in in the afterlife. I'm not sure that it matters what one Nazi thinks about another Nazi's afterlife state.

You can ultimately only judge yourself. If you have lived 1,000 times. thats 750,000 years (average of 75 years per life) - a nazi bungs you in prision camp for 4 years. You find out in your last life - you chopped that nazi's head off for defending his cattle from you and the rest of your mongel invading buddy's.

If we do re-incarnate, and we still had all the things from a previous life hanging around us, you would have jews executing chinese people for having the memorys of there former life etc.

We think actions here and now are the ultimate thing in universe, but while they are importent- the only thing that is importent is the knowledge you take away from them.

If we are little more then a random accident, we are as small as 1 bacteria in a human body, compared with the universe. If a partical of a bacteria killed another particle of bacteria....do you really thing anyone would care?.... The only things that would care, would be the 2 particles and surround ones.

If there is no moral absolutes in the world, if we are the only judge of ourselves, then we descend into moral relativism or subjectivism. I therefore should come by and rape your female family members because I belive it would be fun. In the afterlife, I would be the only judge of my actions and would simply tell you that I learned from it one way or another. Don't you agree there is a problem with this?

Compassion and love for others is the root of most, if not all religion and spirituality. Yes, if someone is suffering, it is morally right to help out / and or care. Human life has a lot more worth than a bacteria since human beings are capable of moral choice where bacteria are not. There is no such thing as an evil, selfish bacteria, but evil, selfish people seem to be common.

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B-dawg

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Reincarnation, the only real way...
Reply #8 - Jan 11^th, 2006 at 1:56am

[quote author=Spitfire link=board=afterlife_knowledge;num=1136924253;start=0#6 date=01/10/06 at 20:04:49]

You use yourself a base for judgement. Do nazi's think other nazi's are bad? no. if they think your bad for being a jew...do they have the right to tell you you will spend eternity in hell?

You can ultimately only judge yourself. If you have lived 1,000 times. thats 750,000 years (average of 75 years per life) - a nazi bungs you in prision camp for 4 years. You find out in your last life - you chopped that nazi's head off for defending his cattle from you and the rest of your mongel invading buddy's.

If we do re-incarnate, and we still had all the things from a previous life hanging around us, you would have jews executing chinese people for having the memorys of there former life etc.
*******************************
To be payed back for (or pay for!) injustice.
Reincarnation IS the only way to address injustices committed in this life.
If Western theologians are right, and we "only go 'round once"...
A LOT of folks are going to have to "suck it in" with regard to injustices they've suffered.
(I mean... I'm still bitter over some comparatively minor injustices I suffered as a kid (like the worthless school counselor who told me (when I was 15) that I was AT FAULT (for not being a "friendly person") for the beatings I was taking from a 20-year-old, held-back-two-grades thug who outweighed me by about 50 pounds.)
Did I mention, that I STILL hate the very sound of the word "friendly"? (Stupid "smiley faces" and "have a nice day!" come to mind...)
But that is NOTHING compared to the injustice suffered by those poor wretches at Auschwitz, or Birkenau, or the Warsaw Ghetto at the hands of the Nazis.
I rankle at the idea of having to "suck it in" for eternity over a case of bullying by an idiot who thought I was trying to make time with his sl*tty girlfriend. (I wasn't.) Imagine what it would be like for a Holocaust victim...
So to reiterate... reincarnation had damn well BETTER be an option at least, if there is a
hereafter. At least that way, your "revenge" is
something you get to deal out YOURSELF. (If the
Nazi SS thugs went to "Hell", that would be as unsatisfying to me (were I a Holocaust victim) as the state-sponsored executions my country is currently so fond of. What good is revenge, if you can't mete it out with your own hands?)

B-man

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B-dawg Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 596 Missoula, Montana Gender:	"Disagreeumptions" Reply #9 - Jan 11^th, 2006 at 3:12am It ain't no spirit, folks. It's the Moderator's profanity filter. "A$$umptions" becomes "disagreeumptions" just as "A$$" becomes "disagree" (though I fail to see the connection...) B-man
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Spitfire

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Re: Symbiosis of world views
Reply #10 - Jan 11^th, 2006 at 8:06am

Wow Jesus is stupid? Thats a new one to me. You are right in saying he didnt die for your sins. You have to recognize him, follow him, and ask for his help for his sacrifice to pay for your sins in Christian theology. Obviously you are no friend to Christianity with that attitude. And as for you not being around... is it that hard to imagine that this applies to all people, in all times? Not our modern American version of Christianity, that you need to say a Lord's prayer, but that he paved the way towards salvation for all people in all times / cultures? Obviously what that means for different people would be different. Certain jews are held up as heroes of the Judeo-Christian faith but never knew Jesus while he was alive.

Yes he 'wanted to get caught', he came to die, as God incarnate, so that people would be freed from their sins in the present and the afterlife. I thought that's what Bruce's work seems to be about, and I would assume people who frequent this website would also have that attitude. I have been proven wrong.

As for God the father slapping Jesus there, you assume that it wasn't a choice for Jesus to be crucified. Once again, you show a lack of knowledge of Christian theology. Jesus chose to die, repeatedly, and mentioned that fact several times throughout the gospels. You can disagree that this happened, but your disagreement is then with the bible, not dealing with the issue at hand that I posed.
In addition from this section, you mean Omniscient, not Omnipotent. And no, I don't think that Jesus was Omniscient. He was an incarnation of God that took human form, with human limitations. He knew enough to follow the Spirit's next move, not exactly everything that was going on. He was not God walking around in a man-suit.

Lastly, most people will say that Jesus was a good teacher. But he claimed to basically be an incarnation of God. Was he telling the truth? Deluded? A liar? Those are the only three logical options.

Hows does jesus dieing....relieve others of there sins, when people were being crucified everyday? and yet they died for little/ no reason?

This website aint based on the teachings of god or the bible, although it has to be said they hold alot of values we all apply to our daily lives.

i did a little map of the afterlife for you, as people who have obe's believe it is.

I ment omnipotent, an all powerful being which is perfect and all knowing. I was refering to god, who should know all thats happened and all that will happen - therefore he stuck his son there to be executed. If he created people, then it's his/it's fault for there sin. You dont blame a robot for acting like a robot. Theres more sin these days then there was at the time of jesus. I dont see god sending him for a second round?.

The logic here is unclear, but let me say this. I do think it matters what God thinks about the state that someone will be in in the afterlife. I'm not sure that it matters what one Nazi thinks about another Nazi's afterlife state.

My point us, you judge others based on your personal beliefs, as do we all.

Your a christian. do you think a muslim has the right to tell you - your going to hell for not worshipping mohammed?

If there is no moral absolutes in the world, if we are the only judge of ourselves, then we descend into moral relativism or subjectivism. I therefore should come by and rape your female family members because I belive it would be fun. In the afterlife, I would be the only judge of my actions and would simply tell you that I learned from it one way or another. Don't you agree there is a problem with this?

Compassion and love for others is the root of most, if not all religion and spirituality. Yes, if someone is suffering, it is morally right to help out / and or care. Human life has a lot more worth than a bacteria since human beings are capable of moral choice where bacteria are not. There is no such thing as an evil, selfish bacteria, but evil, selfish people seem to be common.

We survived for 100,000 of years without jesus. and without the christian god. Great apes 98% the same as us - have no god yet they live peacefully compared with us.

People under estimate our instincts, i dont believe in god or jesus. But if i saw a child in the middle of the road i would run out and grab it to stop it being run over. If i saw someone being mugged i would help.

If someone raped my family members, i would get revenge - it's true. But then i have to think to what degree. Because of the pressure society applys upon it's members.

Why do moral choices matter? bacteria has choices, do i go left or right. do i divide and multiply?.

Just because we are more inteligent then the average mammal, does that give us a purpose to exist? i think it only gives us the drive to find a reason to exist.

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