Conversation Board - Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on TV.

Rob_Roy Super Member Offline Posts: 539 New Hampshire, USA Gender:	Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on Reply #15 - Dec 27^th, 2005 at 9:07am The brain is the interface for our consciousness to function in C1 reality. Vicky, Believe me, I know you aren't one who believes that. Love, Rob
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Sasuke

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #16 - Dec 27^th, 2005 at 11:09pm

Quote:

i think christians and muslims and most other religons, are full of weak minded people, who like to blame there mis fortune on a god, and they like to have a book which will tell them how to act in almost any situation, because they fear losing control of there lifes, and finding out life is meaningless.

Thanks, big guy. Would you like a bigger paintbrush, or are you good with the one you have already?

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~Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?~

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Raz

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #17 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 1:01am

heh, you get em sasuke..though i dont get what you said.

whats so hard to accept about the idea that we are god, Android?
you said:
Quote:

i would -without language, without a social structure impossing on me about that, without a single book- begin to think (notice)first about me and than about a creator..because everything around would be proposing that there is gotto be something/somebody behind all this

how come that something/somebody is rarely thought of as yourself?

Theres always something responsible for existence but self, why is that?

If you dont think this is your creation, but some other creator, how come?

Quote:

a clever way for a clever creator to prove itself actually.

Yea, thats what I mean. how can i prove to you that you are the creator? Your too clever for yourself.... So clever, you wouldnt even think that its your creation.. have you outsmarted yourself?

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egdio7

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #18 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 3:10am

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Education + instinct = morals. teachings of god and religon gave rise to wars. Crusades, clensings, and mass genocide.

the bible has shaped western society considerabley, because parts of it became the law for western countrys. But with people leaving christianity, laws are also changing, the usa executes people, which is'nt allowed by the bible. everyone goes around sueing people so love thy neighbour also has gone the way of the dodo. + other comandments.

Life without god i dont believe is meanlingless. But you are correct life is meaningless without an afterlife. Morals are based on our own nature. Murder in the animal kingdom is'nt considered wrong. But it is to us, and not long ago we could have murdered each other without recompence. The idea of god has only existed for a few thousand years, we surived for 100,000 years without any god, merely instinct - without those people we would not exist and therefore nor would god.

Education also existed before god, the Eygptions studied the stars and maths and had ordered society without god, as he would be known today. Morals are products of our evolving brain, 1000 years ago christianity was around, yet people were cutting peoples hands off for stealing bread, people were being stoned/whipped to death, and this was perfectly normal, while today with our ever evolving brain it would be considered unthinkable.

i honestly dont believe god exists, the afterlife as i said im gathering evidence, i have a few unbreakable peices of evidence at the moment to keep me going, and i hope to find more logical and concrete proof.

You are blurring your facts... Everyone knows that the Egyptians believed in Gods and certainly an afterlife. Your examples of crusades, cleansing, and mass genocide are examples of people using free will and making really bad choices. Could the Ten Commandments be any clearer? Is it God's fault when people use their free will to disobey God's laws. Is there any one of the Ten Commandments that you think is not a good idea for the way we should live our lives? Is there any one of them that you don't understand?

My point is you are picking out all the bad choices people make exercising their free will, and blaming God and religion. Do you not see all the good that is in the world when people choose to follow God's laws. Do you not want free will?

When you bash religion for all the problems in the world... I ask you to think about a culture that had any level of success with a pure atheist approach. You can't, there isn't one. If you try to imagine one... Logic can point to disaster. Let me repeat one more time, very clearly.

1. True atheist: no God, no afterlife, = life meaningless
2. Any morals that today's atheist do have can be traced back to religious teachings.
3. No morals + meaningless life = a hellish society

Don't let any atheist take any credit for creating any moral doctrine. Understand that their meaningless life has no foundation to support any morals.

When I put myself in a atheist mind set... logic tells me that your thought process would be... if someone is annoying you... kill them and take their stuff. Like you said earlier, you can survive this way but do you really think it's better than a religious society?

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Spitfire

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #19 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 5:33am

Quote:

You are blurring your facts... Everyone knows that the Egyptians believed in Gods and certainly an afterlife. Your examples of crusades, cleansing, and mass genocide are examples of people using free will and making really bad choices. Could the Ten Commandments be any clearer? Is it God's fault when people use their free will to disobey God's laws. Is there any one of the Ten Commandments that you think is not a good idea for the way we should live our lives? Is there any one of them that you don't understand?

My point is you are picking out all the bad choices people make exercising their free will, and blaming God and religion. Do you not see all the good that is in the world when people choose to follow God's laws. Do you not want free will?

When you bash religion for all the problems in the world... I ask you to think about a culture that had any level of success with a pure atheist approach. You can't, there isn't one. If you try to imagine one... Logic can point to disaster. Let me repeat one more time, very clearly.

1. True atheist: no God, no afterlife, = life meaningless
2. Any morals that today's atheist do have can be traced back to religious teachings.
3. No morals + meaningless life = a hellish society

Don't let any atheist take any credit for creating any moral doctrine. Understand that their meaningless life has no foundation to support any morals.

When I put myself in a atheist mind set... logic tells me that your thought process would be... if someone is annoying you... kill them and take their stuff. Like you said earlier, you can survive this way but do you really think it's better than a religious society?

The eygptions had "gods" true, but they were not the "god" they were based on the stars, sun god etc.

God should know, what affect him putting rules on earth should have? he should have known it would be twisted, that it should be used to kill millions of people. If he did'nt then he's not omnipotent and therefore not god, if he did, then so much for god loving all his children.

From a dictionary.
AThiest
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Not the afterlife.

Great apes who are close to us, live lives without gods, they live in structured society, it's less violent,they have morals. it comes from instinct and some education.

Just as early man survived without religon, pure instinct + education which was passed down long before religon came into our lives.

About your athiest mindset, i will just paste somthing i read on an athiest website.

The African apes - whose genes are ninety-eight to ninety-nine percent identical to ours - go about their lives as social animals, cooperating in the living of life, entirely without the benefit of clergy and without the commandments of Exodus, Leviticus, or Deuteronomy. It is further cheering to learn that sociobiologists have even observed altruistic behavior among troops of baboons. More than once, in troops attacked by leopards, aged, post reproduction-age males have been observed to linger at the rear of the escaping troop and to engage the leopard in what often amounts to a suicidal fight. As the old male delays the leopard's pursuit by sacrificing his very life, the females and young escape and live to fulfill their several destinies. The heroism which we see acted out, from time to time, by our fellow men and women, is far older than their religions. Long before the gods were created by the fear-filled minds of our less courageous ancestors, heroism and acts of self-sacrificing love existed. They did not require a supernatural excuse then, nor do they require one now.

Given the general fact, then, that evolution has equipped us with nervous systems biased in favor of social, rather than antisocial, behaviors, is it not true, nevertheless, that antisocial behavior does exist, and it exists in amounts greater than a reasonable ethicist would find tolerable? Alas, this is true. But it is true largely because we live in worlds far more complex than the Paleolithic world in which our nervous systems originated. To understand the ethical significance of this fact, we must digress a bit and review the evolutionary history of human behavior.

If the afterlife was proved 100%, relgion would not be needed, religon is a way to get rid of our fears that we are just mortal beings, and that the afterlife does exist, and what we do on earth does matters.

I can say that religon survived a purpose for a long time, and it did have some bad side affects, but in a time when differences were appearing between people, everyone had the same set of core principals and for people who were un educated it provided and hope that there hard lives had a reward.

Religon had it's purpose, but now it's ended it merely kept our instincts in check through fear.

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blink

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #20 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 4:11pm

Just a small side comment on religion in general. Although we may disagree on the merits of the beliefs promoted by different religions, there is an aspect of religion not discussed often here. Some of the rituals which develop from our spiritual impulses and practiced by communities and individuals are very creative and health-sustaining practices. They fulfill contemplative needs and also self-expressive needs for many people. To fully appreciate these rituals individual participation can be very helpful even if complete understanding of all aspects is too time-consuming. Participation feels very different from simply observing. Of course, this is a matter of individual choice. And you can always take what is helpful to you and discard the rest.

Regarding atheism. That is also a matter of personal choice and I once considered myself an atheist for a time. When I expressed this to family the reply was, "but we Know you are a Christian..." It is difficult for people to believe that someone can comfortably hold such a belief. However, I do think "agnostic" is a better term because who can say that they really Know...we know only what we are given and what we seek out.

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PhoenixRa

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #21 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 5:17pm

Hi there SpitFire,

Just wanted to comment a bit on the Egyptians, as i've always been drawn to them...

The Hierophants or Priests of Egypt, seemed to believe that a Soul when it becomes completed, becomes as a Star in the night sky...

Some have taken this to believe that the Egyptians literally believed in this, and maybe after awhile and after each generation became more ignorant, they did...

But perhaps this was just a clue or metaphor for the whole "Ascension process" of matter returning to pure energy again?

So there seems to be a double meaning to some of their beliefs, and of course i can't "prove" it, but i think they did literally believe in Creator Gods...

Heck, these are the same people who built that marvel of marvels... To be sure there are many pyramids, and some which are much bigger with larger stones...but the huge amount of multi-layered symbolism and meaning within the Great Pyramid is far beyond most other structures in the World.

Eh gads, i'm off topic! (and so he scuttles away...)

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Raz

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #22 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 6:47pm

Quote:

Don't let any atheist take any credit for creating any moral doctrine. Understand that their meaningless life has no foundation to support any morals.

When I put myself in a atheist mind set... logic tells me that your thought process would be... if someone is annoying you... kill them and take their stuff. Like you said earlier, you can survive this way but do you really think it's better than a religious society?

And i would laugh, if you asked me that on tv.
That is such a stereotypical generalization of atheists as having no morals or any kind of decent standing.
If you want to talk trash, would you like an athiest to point out all the bad believers in god there have been, and are? Believers in god who themselves hold no moral standing, and in fact should be asked how themselves survive that way in a religious society,.... where every kind of pleasure brings you guilt?
Where any type of idea of no control brings you fear.

fear of the athiest savages!

they come knocking at your door handing out pamphlets that instruct you how to not believe in what the jehovas witness pamphlet says.

Though, my point is not to limit your view to think believing in god is automatic righteousness. And ,that, to not hold a belief in a god makes your life some pathetic dreg on society and that an athiests world has no value..

People are confusing atheists, satanists, and nihilists.

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chilipepperflea

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #23 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 8:54pm

Hey everyone,

To be honest I consider myself a Atheist, I don't believe in religion (it has its bad points and good points) but regardless I just can't honestly imagine one big guy sitting up there contorlling this all, the gates and going to heaven or hell, ok I know this is biased but for me it serves no purpose. I do belief in the Afterlife though, not totally I'll admit, I do love my proof, but I'm getting there, although I'm more going for the journey and hope proof comes my way. I do oviously if you know me believe in OBE's and Astral Projection and do believe we can meet out there, I have also had some personal proof in this department. But I'm still an atheist and from Spitfire's definition out of the dictionary I'm glad I can still hold this comment. I don't like to fit into a religion "term" "group" "following" but I do know that atheist is just that, but its different.

Secondly I don't think morals are associated from religions, I believe everything plays a part so maybe religions influenced these but morals can arise from feelings such as empathy, fear but also from society, culture, just groups of people and behaviour. Which is part of human socialization which came before religion. This I believe from a non educated, non religious, non anything background from which I am from.

Ryan

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Raz

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #24 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 10:28pm

Quote:

I just can't honestly imagine one big guy sitting up there contorlling this all, the gates and going to heaven or hell, ok I know this is biased but for me it serves no purpose. I do belief in the Afterlife though, not totally I'll admit, I do love my proof, but I'm getting there, although I'm more going for the journey and hope proof comes my way. I do oviously if you know me believe in OBE's and Astral Projection and do believe we can meet out there

We meet. this could be likened to the transaltion of how we connect. In dreams or altered states.
I heard one person a while ago call this pooling. We pool.
We communicate 'subjectively' pooling together and manifest that,.... energy. that exchange so can we see it, physically. interacting in so many areas how can one decipher which one, but c1, or 2, or 3, or 4, or..?
Dreams or what have you, altered states...you know, that we meet. Welcome to the physical version of that meeting. Kiss

This is a projection. Our physical meeting is a physcal projection itself.
Though, heh, in waking state, much more physical! though that is what we interpret in, physical imagerey lol
its still astral projection in waking state. therefore, you will have waking state images in your 'astral' projections..

physical images.
which is precisely why the weird dreams you remember most vividly are lucid. your at the point where your subjective meets your objective. You have more freedom to move within a lucid dream than waking state because in dream state the beliefs of this physical waking state are subdued. You know your dreaming, and you know in that state you can move more freely and do what you choose and in general, follow your impulses and create the appropriaate subdued from waking state imagerey, the aastral expereince.

your dreaming. its an altered state. So is waking state an altered state, but waking state is where our perception is more 'solid'. though we essentially do the same thing in our dreams as we do when we are awake. You can notice that much easier than i can explain it i hope.

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Berserk

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #25 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 10:55pm

Spitfire:] "I am glad to say Christianity is on the decline."
You like to pontificate on subjects you know nothing about. Mainline denominations are on the decline in the USA, but evangelical denominations are booming. A recent report noted that, despite Communist respression, there will soon be more evangelical Christians in China than in the USA.

[Spitfire:] "Morals come from education + instinct, it's the same for everyone, believers are merely puppets...I don't blame every war on religon, but I do say religon is highly dangerous."

Another one of your insipid generalizations! What is truly dangerous is atheism. As Oxford 's atheist philosopher Iris Murdoch confesses, "If there is no God, we will have to invent Him!" What does she mean? If you are not ultimately accountable for your actions, there is no other reason to be a law-abiding citizen than the fear of being caught by the police and punished. With no postmortem accountablity, morality and conscience can be dismissed as culturally conditioned herd instincts created by random selection to support the survival of the species. If it gives me pleasure to violate these instincts and perpetuate atrocities, why shouldn't I do it if I'm confident I can get away with it? But, you say, what if everybody felt free to hurt others for no reason? What kind of a world would that be for you to inhabit? The atheist can rightly reply, "But only some will choose my sadistic path. So the world will continue just as it always has." Atheism--not religion--is the truly dangerous ideology. Fortunately, most atheists do not think their positions through any more deeply than Spitfire.

[Spit:] "I think christians and muslims and most other religons, are full of weak minded people, who like to blame there misfortune on a god."

I think you're just projecting your own "weak-minded" bigotry onto vague targets about which you are clueless. Most Christians do not "blame" their misfortune on God. But then you're the same guy who disparages the whole medical profession because of your own sob story. Now that is an example of feeble-mindedness! I guess you imagine it's OK for a guy to hate all blacks because he was once robbed by a black man.

Spitfire, you are not entitled to critique what you don't understand. You have no clue how biblical miracles can be connected with eyewitness testimony. You don't even understand basic Christian doctrine. For example, I'm sure you don't know the name of the man outside the Bible who knew the apostles personally and passed on their defenses. I'm calling your bluff. Prove me wrong! Worst of all, you actually think it's a sign of intelligence that you can't be reasoned with and could never admit you're wrong on the most important questions. If I thought you had even a modicum of open-mindedness, I would devote hours to making the case for faith for your careful consideration.

Don

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egdio7

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #26 - Dec 28^th, 2005 at 11:49pm

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Great apes who are close to us, live lives without gods, they live in structured society, it's less violent,they have morals. it comes from instinct and some education.

So I ask you to come up with a productive atheist society and the best you and your atheist buddies can come up with is a bunch of monkeys. Yea, the model of a peaceful society... Great if your a Silver Back, you can have sex with any female you want and beat the crap out of anyone who gets in your way. - "this debate with spit is sucking the life out of me."

Most "strong atheists" believe in no afterlife. There are also what they call "weak atheist" who leave themselves loopholes and are unsure about an afterlife. The major leaders of atheist organizations that I see on TV have all said, "when you die, end of story." By the way, the women atheist interviewed by Barbara wawa also said this.

I don't mean to demonize atheist. I also think to question the existence of God and afterlife is a healthy debate. I just think it is very weak to blame all the problems in the world on religion.

I think the mistake that the anti-religion people are making is that they are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Example: Jesus is the baby and the Catholic Church is the bath water. I understand most of the problems and flaws with the Catholic Church. For me I don't make any excuses for the mistakes made by individuals in the church and mistakes with it's bureaucracy. For me the problems are not enough to want to see the collapse of the church. However, even if you want to see the end of the Catholic Church as we know it today... do you need to forsake Jesus Christ himself? Does anyone here not agree with his teachings or the way he lived his life?

An analogy for the way anti-religion people think is... I don't like the major water bottling companies (major religions), so water (God) is bad, I'm not drinking it any more. You can still believe water is good and continue to drink it. You can get it free if you want.

Raz, I'm sure there are atheists out there who are living better lives then lets say Catholics. My point was the good moral standards that some atheist hold could be traced back to religion. Also, even if, for argument sake there is no God... morals with accountability (belief in God) are more motivating then morals with no accountability (belief in no God).

I'm not debating the existence of God at this time. I'm just opposing the idea that religion is the cause of all the problems in the world and we are better off without it.

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Berserk Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 979 Gender:	Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on Reply #27 - Dec 29^th, 2005 at 12:32am Well said, Egdio.
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B-dawg

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About the necessity of a "God", Don...
Reply #28 - Dec 29^th, 2005 at 1:42am

I could wrangle and wrestle with you over various theological issues, "theodicy" and what have you. But in the end, we'd end up with THIS question...
Where did "God" come from? Occam's razor demands the simplest explanation for the universe (or multiverse) and for "why things are the way things are."
Religion starts with the most COMPLEX assumption... INFINITE complexity, in fact. (What could be more complex than "God", after all?)
SO...
Where did "God" come from, Don? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence...
P.S. I strongly doubt that many criminals sweat too hard over the prospect of post-mortem retribution... or if they do, it is long after their crimes have been committed and they feel either remorse, or are facing their own impending demise. So there goes the idea that religion is a deterrent to savagery.
Moreover, most decent people have other reasons than fear of the police, or of "God's Wrath" not to commit crimes. Perhaps they do not wish to harm others... perhaps they do not want to jeopardize their social standing and/or privileges, or they don't want to "mess up" their lives. The list goes on and on.
BTW, "postmortem retribution" is every bit as much a "fear-based" concept as fear of the police, and therefore just as reprehensible a motivation for law-abiding behavior. (AND, it is equally as UNFIT as "fear of police" as the morality base of a free people in a democratic society. Catch my drift, Don?)

B-man

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Spitfire

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Re: Some questions I'd like atheists to explain on
Reply #29 - Dec 29^th, 2005 at 5:02am

You like to pontificate on subjects you know nothing about. Mainline denominations are on the decline in the USA, but evangelical denominations are booming. A recent report noted that, despite Communist respression, there will soon be more evangelical Christians in China than in the USA.

Obviously i know more then you.

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1992/aug1992p3_759.html

read that and eat pie.

Another one of your insipid generalizations! What is truly dangerous is atheism. As Oxford 's atheist philosopher Iris Murdoch confesses, "If there is no God, we will have to invent Him!" What does she mean? If you are not ultimately accountable for your actions, there is no other reason to be a law-abiding citizen than the fear of being caught by the police and punished. With no postmortem accountablity, morality and conscience can be dismissed as culturally conditioned herd instincts created by random selection to support the survival of the species. If it gives me pleasure to violate these instincts and perpetuate atrocities, why shouldn't I do it if I'm confident I can get away with it? But, you say, what if everybody felt free to hurt others for no reason? What kind of a world would that be for you to inhabit? The atheist can rightly reply, "But only some will choose my sadistic path. So the world will continue just as it always has." Atheism--not religion--is the truly dangerous ideology. Fortunately, most atheists do not think their positions through any more deeply than Spitfire.

have you forgot about "law"?....i guess so unless you believe the church has all the power? so burning witchs is ok?.

Can you answer how we surived before religon? we did for 100,000 years.

Religon has caused massive wars, which you cannot deny, if you do your merely a fool.

I think you're just projecting your own "weak-minded" bigotry onto vague targets about which you are clueless. Most Christians do not "blame" their misfortune on God. But then you're the same guy who disparages the whole medical profession because of your own sob story. Now that is an example of feeble-mindedness! I guess you imagine it's OK for a guy to hate all blacks because he was once robbed by a black man.

dam right i hate doctors, they learn from the same set of rules, i dont like muslim extremists because they follow the same set of rules. and if you want to get personal, you are weak and if i saw you in real life instead of you hiding behind your keyboard and making comments about me, i would show you the error of your ways. coward.

Spitfire, you are not entitled to critique what you don't understand. You have no clue how biblical miracles can be connected with eyewitness testimony. You don't even understand basic Christian doctrine. For example, I'm sure you don't know the name of the man outside the Bible who knew the apostles personally and passed on their defenses. I'm calling your bluff. Prove me wrong! Worst of all, you actually think it's a sign of intelligence that you can't be reasoned with and could never admit you're wrong on the most important questions. If I thought you had even a modicum of open-mindedness, I would devote hours to making the case for faith for your careful consideration.

Why would i possibley want to know that?, i have no intrest in christianity, you ask most christians that and they probley would'nt know themselves. If you wanna talk about the history of christianity, crusades or any holy war, i can answer your questions. I am open minded to anything reasonable. You cant even answer my most basic questions, like why no one bothered to bring a camera when they "knew" a miracle was going to occur.

You would dismiss any peice of evidence that god does'nt exist if i spent hours finding you the infomation, you just dismiss obvious flaws in your argument go down a different route.

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« Last Edit: Dec 29^th, 2005 at 6:25am by N/A »

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