Don: But surely you'd agree that fear has an important role to play for survival and the moral development of children and some nonreflective adults?  The point is that we must strive to eliminate our fears to embrace the highest form of love (Greek: "agape").
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I'd say the end result does not always justify the means..meaning PUL can be behind a command to a child or a child in an adult body, but so can Fear come from behind a command...only your own intuition can guide you on this one, but children automatically can tell the difference and they will act out the love or fear you as the parent have placed within them..as adults.

in general fear can produce an adrenalin within the body which we still have to choose carefully what choices we are making from such a state...is possible to make the wrong choice if it involves harmfulness to another in taking away their own choices

love, alysia

oh, ok, thanks for that story Don but somehow tying people to trees to get them to see the light just doens't sound quite right and ranks up there with extremism to me. I'm a more middle of the road type person and don't believe in lying on a bed of nails either for enlightenment. as a matter of fact I'm way past wanting enlightenment or nirvana. for my point of view I was simply accepting you as a member of this board in my last post. I've never really accepted you before today. I find your value here in my own way. take care and you are loved just as you are. I really mean that.
as for fear to use as some sort of teaching aid, I wouldn't use it on a dog, and I wouldn't use it on a human, but thats just me and we can still be tolerant of one another even though we differ.
cheerio, and keep playing chess, alysia

VERIFICATION AND THE CONCEPT OF A MORAL ABSOLUTE

I want to refocus this thread on its stated objective.  What follows is sketchy, but it is designed as food for thought and is meant to orient your thinking towards the quest to ground New Age value terms in verification tests.

Is is the "right" thing to do to manifest a loving lifestyle?  One might object: "There is no personal God of love.  Nature {evolution) is brutally amoral, based as it is on natural selection and the survival of the fittest.  So human morality is nothing more than a herd instinct to concoct rules that make our herd life viable."  One might object: "Society cannot function without respect for other people's right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness."  His opponent might counter: "True, my life would be horrid if everyone ignored morality and took pleasure in controlling and hurting others.   But in fact, most people are naive enough to buy into our abitrary herd instinct.   This means that I can commit any crime I desire if it brings me gain or pleasure.  As long as I don't  get caught, my quality of life will not be adversely affected."   The other objects: "But how can you live with your cionscience?"  His opponent might reply, "My conscience can be seared once I realize guilt is just cultural conditioning designed to reinforce an indefensible harmonious conformity." The bottom line: if there is no postmortem justice, than "right" and "wrong" are vacuous concepts.  

So how can the concept of "right" and "wrong" be elevated beyond the status of relativistic personal belief that may safely be ignored?  Only if the concept of a moral (spiritual) absolute is meaningful in the afterlife.  Ask yourself, "Does God embrace a moral value because it is right or is it right because God embraces it?  The first question seems misguided because it assumes that God might be subject to a moral order that transcends "Him."   The second question has more potential.  

Suppose God were a sadist.   If God advocates a set of rules that assume might is right, we would rebel.  We simply are not wired to accept such a view.   But suppose God is love.   We are wired in such a way as to embrace the principle that guidelines essential to promote love provide us with a basis for right and wrong.  

But what then is our answer to a Devil's Advocate who challenges this as arbritary?   The concept of a moral absolute is meaningless only if it is grounded in the nature of postmortem existence. Let's provisionally assume the conventional Christian view that there is only one moral absolute-- PUL. On this view, other values would merely be consequences of PUL, and so, would not be independent absolutes.  
 
Suppose that progress towards PUL raises one's spiritual vibration and this facilitates spiritual ascent through the astral planes towards union with God.  Then PUL can serve as a meaningful basis for the concept of right and wrong.  "Wrong" (e.g. sins and vices) can then be defined as those attitudes and lifestyles that lower one's spiritual vibration, causing one to drift further and further away from progress towards union with God.  Suppose someone objects: "Your concept of a PUL absolute strikes me as arbritrary.  Why should I accept it?"   My reply: "If you are willing to embrace the consequences of shunning PUL, then this concept is indeed arbitrary--for you.   But if you want ultimate spiritual fulfilment, you must embrace PUL as if it were a binding absolute.  Of course, what "sins" and "vices" drive one further away from union with God can be disputed.  

But how could this model ever be verified or falsified?  Most of this site's retrievals sound like jailbreaks rather than moral graduations from lower planes.  If I can be sprung from a lower plane and function well in Focus 27 without any progress towards PUL, then PUL can be discredited as a moral absolute.   But that assumes that astral planes are not really governed by the principle of like attracts like.  In this regard, I am struck by one of Gordon Phinn's follow-up explorations of a retrieval.  Gord found that the retrieved soul had returned to his hollow heaven. He and his mentor wereangry at Gord's meddling.  With the best of intentions, Gordon had apparently helped cause the equivalent of a jailbreak. The retrievee evidently had not yet made the requisite changes in his energetics to function well in a higher plane.  This report rings true to me and supports the notion of PUL as a moral absolute.   More astral research needs to be done on the conditions needed for for successful retrievals.  Such research might confirm my perspective on the PUL absolute.

[By the way, integrity forces me to acknowledge that i cannot honestly recommend Gordon's book on the afterlife.  It rings fictitious to me.  But the retrieval alluded to above does ring true to me.]

In a future post I will challenge a common view of PUL expressed on this site.

Don

Don said: [By the way, integrity forces me to acknowledge that i cannot honestly recommend Gordon's book on the afterlife.  It rings fictitious to me.
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Don, what is this about integrity? are u saving us from reading a bad book or what?
  we are capable of finding our own reading material, thank u very much.
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TO All: I have read Gordon Phinn's book "Eternal Life, How to Enjoy it."

I did indeed find his book refreshing, one of it's kind, it's forges a new perspective about the afterlife, wanted to give it a thumbs up if anyone here is interested. Also I respect Gordon and his character is impeccable. I know GP; I've met him out there more than once and I back him 100% .
so...Don..written any books yourself which we could review? you are knowledgable enough to do that I suspect, why waste time here when you could be giving your public a book? whats that u say? you are still researching? ok, carry on.
I respect anyone who writes a book, even one I don't agree with, it's hard work I would not stoop to the level that you do to put down another's work.

Quote:


Ok, wow, i didnt know the nature of the beast.  Let me say instead, that is truley absurd. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt before by calling it only absurd.  but yeap, thats truley absurd...

"The consequences of shunning pul"

these i got to hear, what are the consequences, berserker?
and
Ultimate spirtitual fulfillment??  lol, which is?  i would call that the consequence of shunning pul:) whatever it is that pul is besides your absolute.
Let me guess, it has something to do with positivity? Yes?
and show me some evidence of how negativity lowers our 'spiritual vibration' and prevents the 'ascension through the astral plane' while your at it.
You have to excuse me, but your terms are very cliche' and very disputable.
I mean, feelings exist....emotions exist, but these ideas you have berserker are illusions.  false beliefs.  Inventions, theories, assumptions, what ever you prefer to call them. Hardly an absolute, eh?

Re: the book thing

     I appreciate the hard work that it takes to bring anything to completion, whatever the form of the craft. Since I work with books it's hard for me not to respond here.

     I buy books to sell that I'm not personally interested in because other people are interested in them and might want to read them. People get to make their own choices. There's books I've read that I haven't liked. If someone brings up a book to me in the store and asks if I read it and liked it, I'll tell them if I did or not. It kills a sale sometimes, but I need to be honest about it. Don's expressing his opinion. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but he gets to like what he likes.

    I loved Gordon's book. Especially the sense of humor. I recomend it. I look forward to his second book. But not everyone is going to like his work. Not everyone likes my music. We all get to like different things. I dunno, I like the free-will aspect of that.

     I love the creative process and respect anyone who is engaged in it. I don't like all the music I hear though. Some of it makes me want to leave the room. Some of it makes me want to dance. I like that we get to choose what we listen to though.

    I don't think Don was being harsh. He's just saying it's not his cup of tea.

       Love to you Alysia, you too Don!

     (and my hat off to Gordon for a great book!)

       Tim

Raz,
     You said,
"Nothing, nothing transcends emotion.  first of all. Secondly, its another conception of new agers to always be transcending things.  Again, what do you think you are transcending?"

Raz, I would have to say that yes, there is something which transcends emotion.  That would be an "ultimate" experience of love, peace, acceptance.  When we have moved through emotion that is our destination.  We have only words to describe these things, so it will always be possible to argue such experiences out of existence with the use of our words. 

We can also claim that no one has pure, unconditional love for even one second of their life, and that would be incorrect.

It is all a gift for our taking, if we are ready, if the time is right.  Our arguments cannot change one iota of what is real.

blink

Just wanted to say that I highly recommended Gordon's book. It's right up there among the best of the best on the afterlife.

Namaste,
Mairlyn